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Mech And Weapon Balance



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#41 Sybreed

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 05:01 PM

Aright, here it goes:

- Current LB-X iteration is underperforming compared to standard ACs, even though it cost double.

- There are, I believe 3 problems with the weapon
1. The spread is too big
2. It cannot fire slug rounds, so it's current 450m or so Max range is useless due to problem #1. But, before it can fire Slug rounds, ACs would need to get new types of ammo to keep their usefulness.
3. Pellets don't have specific crit bonuses, can't crit through armor.

- What could possibly fix the LB-X
1. Tighten the spread by 50%. Should we expect to hit an atlas with all pellets at 450m? If yes, then spread needs to be tightened.
2. Give it a crit bonus when shot at internals
3. Could be a bug, but sometimes I swear its damage isn't being registered correctly, à la LRM bug post Nov. 8th hotfix.
4. Unless it can fire standard slugs, I fear it'll remain a niche weapon for players who like to get under 90m of a mech.

Edited by Sybreed, 27 November 2012 - 05:45 PM.


#42 Wotanatos

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 05:43 PM

too strong shakes after AC and SRM hurts.
LRM is verry verry peky, too many players are playing LRM - boats. too strong! more scatter pls or lower damage.
its a boring gaming if everybody is waiting for LRM targets...

#43 Lysol

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 06:02 PM

People that think LRMs are OP obviously don't know what AMS does and that you should stay near other people with AMS if you know there are alot of LRM boats on the enemy team, and also that cover is also a good thing to use vs LRMs.

No I don't play LRM boats either, I do use them sometimes but I do not make my load-out only LRMS.

I always get a laugh when I see a light mech get up near a LRM boat and the LRM spammer finds out he is screwed now because he is only using one type of weapon.

Edited by Lysol, 27 November 2012 - 06:04 PM.


#44 Avalios

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 06:03 PM

Ok seriously? The LRM is a decent weapon but they are very easy to dodge entirely, it's called moving behind cover. The only time they were OP was for a short few days when they rained down at a nearly 90 degree angle negating cover.

It's an easy to use weapon that requires little skill to use effectively, but has hardcap on how well you can use them that other weapons outshine when you yourself get better at the game. Sounds balanced to me.

Edited by Avalios, 27 November 2012 - 06:04 PM.


#45 AC

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 07:38 PM

The LRM's were fine before. People were just ******** because they couldn't double shot kill people. I saw plenty of LRM boats yet, but they were in a support role like they should be. LRM's take no skill, so the rewards should be less.

And yeah, it looks like a .1 damage increase, but that is PER MISSILE. There are units that run 60 LRM's. That is another 6 damage that the LRM's didn't need.

#46 Milocinia

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 07:39 PM

This started with patch 1.0.150 but despite numerous complaints, it doesn't seem to be officially recognised by PGI and still exists in 1.1.155.

Mechs are simply being destroyed too quickly. I'm not sure if it's a reduction in the effectiveness of armour or some/all weapons having their power increased. It seems less prevalent under laser fire but a lot more apparent with ballistic weapons.

Any feedback from PGI about this, including any that I might have missed?

#47 Eltyr

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 07:42 PM

I can hardly believe the magnitude of the arm movement nerf on the Cataphract. It completely changes the dynamic of playing one. I have definitely noticed easy kills I no longer can get against equally slow targets merely because of this one change. In some situations, the Cataphract is reduced in effectiveness by 50% or more. I know of no one who thought the Cataphract had too much freedom of movement, because it very clearly didn't. At the very least, you should have increased torso twist to compensate, if you were truly unable to fix clipping without nerfing the arms.

#48 texanman

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 10:44 PM

View PostKyocera, on 27 November 2012 - 07:39 PM, said:

This started with patch 1.0.150 but despite numerous complaints, it doesn't seem to be officially recognised by PGI and still exists in 1.1.155.

Mechs are simply being destroyed too quickly. I'm not sure if it's a reduction in the effectiveness of armour or some/all weapons having their power increased. It seems less prevalent under laser fire but a lot more apparent with ballistic weapons.

Any feedback from PGI about this, including any that I might have missed?


Ever since this new patch I too have noticed that all mechs have been taking damage 2x as fast...I used to be able to take about 4-5 barrages of LRMs before I started taking serious damage but now about 2 my mech is screaming about critical damage. It is not just LRMs but also all weapons too. Did all weapons get a huge damage buff.


Also I am noticing that it takes 2-3 seconds to zoom in now since this patch was applied.


Any plans to fix the current steak srm catapults....they are just WAY op

#49 ExAstris

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Posted 27 November 2012 - 11:47 PM

Since this is the merged thread, I suppose this might have a chance at being read, so I'm gonna spew on alot of things, though I think I'll leave this post to weapons and leave mechs alone for now.



My design philosophy is that all weapons need a role, and that each weapon should be balanced to that role with respect to its mounting/weight/heat/ammo costs.

For example, all LRMs have the same role, they have the same handling, the same range, the same ammo, the same arc, etc. They only vary in loading requirement and total missile spewage.



Weapons that are underperforming are:

Machine Guns. They need at least double their current damage. While they generate no heat, their pathetic dps, ammo dependency, travel time, and spread contribute to their being completely useless. They should compete with the small laser in role as they have the same range and similar loading requirements (ammo vs heatsink, one slot for 1/2 ton). It fills a sorely needed spot in the ballistics selection for a backup weapon, and some mechs like the ballistic heavy Cicada variant won't be worth their weight in pixels until this weapon competes with the small laser.

Flamers. They need smarter heat mechanics. Ones that keep the enemy hot, but don't auto-shut him down. They become too powerful when you can flamerboat and force people to shut down, they become useless when they heat you up more than your opposition. This is just the jist of what needs to be done, and I think its something the devs are already working on, so I'll leave the fine tuning up to them as I have not thought out exactly how this weapon would be best implimented.

Small Pulse Lasers. They have the exact same loading requirements as medium lasers, but are outclassed by them in every way. The only advantage to the splas is that it fires its damage over the course of 1/2 second instead of 1 full second. This is no useful advantage, only the lightest of mechs can even possible benefit from this during twitch fights with other lights, other mechs often benefit from the longer fire time because they can correct poor shots mid-beam.

Now, this weapon just lacks a role. With precisely the same loading requirements, it obviously has to be balanced against the mlas. The mlas must keep the advantage of range, while the splas keeps the benefit of a shorter duration. We are still left with burst dps and heat efficiency to consider. A large reason why this weapon is not used is because the mlas beats it in both burst dps and long term heat efficiency. In short, the mlas has better damage, range, and heat, and it has the latter two by a wide margin. I would recommend changing the splas to have a beam duration of 0.25 seconds, and reduce its heat generation to 2.5. The splas will then be 96% as heat efficient, and have 96% the dps of the mlas (up from 80% and 87%, respectively), but have a far more noticable handling difference as it will spew its damage out in a quarter second. This will make the splas a very useful weaopn for, and against, light mechs as well as for brawlers who plan on being at point blank and need to pinpoint their damage. It gives the weapon a role (pinpoint damage for point blank brawlers) without stepping on the small laser or the medium lasers role of ultra-heat efficiency and omni-laser-filler.

Narc. The wieght is not worth the bonus. Even if the bonus lasted for more than 10 seconds, it just would not cut it. This needs to broadcast the enemy location for at least those 10 seconds, probably 15 in order for lights to really consider taking it. It would be a huge advantage to a light to be able to do scouting without having to maintain LOS, and this has the potential to be the perfect tool to do that with, but while visual lock remains required, the wieght and ammo needs in conjunction with TAG having the same operational requirements for the same benefits but with 1/5 the loading requirements and no drawbacks just makes Narc obsolete.

ER LL. The low heat dissipation rate in this game makes high-heat weapons really hard to use. You have to build your entire mech around just a pair of high heat weapons, and then you don't have any spare heat to run the ubiquitous set of medium lasers for your backup array. The highest heat weapons of all have taken the harshest hit, especially given the fact that the prevalence of terrain cover and lack of long range radar makes it pretty darned easy for mechs that want to engage at below 500m able to do so. So the ER large weapons almost never get to use their range, and their heat is way to high a price for that one or two shots you might get to do a bit more damage with because you have the ER version instead of the regular (which would still likely damage your opponent at that range, just at 2/3 or 1/2 the amount). The heat on this weapon needs to be cut by at least another full point to 9. Going to 8.5 might even be better, but testing at 9 is probably safer before changing it too much.

ER PPC. Same problem as the erll. Heat doesn't justify the range. However, this weapon is importantly different in that it does not have the minimum range limit that keeps regular PPCs from seeing the light of day (getting to that too). Dropping its heat generation a full two points may be justified because 10 damage for 13 heat is just silly in a game where long-term heat control is so utterly critical. However, this leaves it two heat points away from the regular PPC and without its minimum range problem, meaning we won't see the regular PPC again unless...

PPC. ...we change the way the minimum range works. Right now PPCs actually do damage below 90m, but its pathetically small (maybe one?). Increase the damage inside the minimum range. The exact number is up for grabs, but I'd think 5 damage would make sense. You deal half damage inside your minimum. Its a strong incentive to keep your enemy out of that range, and a strong incentive for them to get in it, but it doesn't render you entirely useless as the current setup demands. Now PPCs get to perform against other weapons in their role, direct fire main energy weapons, especially the large laser, trading a little heat efficiency, some travel time, and half its damage inside 90m for being able to put all its damage in one hit location.

LBX10. Spread mechanics just are not going to work to balance this weapon. It doesn't matter what spread you give it, it will always be worse than regular ACs that can put all their damage on one location. If you buff its damage per pellet, then it becomes a humping-shotgun as people will ram into point blank to concentrate the damage and use the overall superior dps to face-wreck people.

This weapon needs an entirely different role. Options include: (1) Give its pellets a very tight spread and a super high muzzle velocity so they can hit light mechs and actually deal most of their damage to a target at their maximum range (spread should be less than Atlas sized at max range). (2) Make these weapons haeavy machine guns, instead of firing a cluster shot, then fire a stream of individual LBX rounds at a rate determined by the caliber of the weapon. They will all have better range and minimally better DPS than their AC counterparts, but suffer from needing to be held on target constantly.




Metagame Balance
Ammo based weapons are getting screwed hard by the reload mechanic being very poorly implimented. I understand wanting to charge us for ammo, it makes alot of fluff sense. But the actual cost we are being charged is absurd. My non-artemis SRM CPLT-C4 has to pay 41,000 c-bills to top off its ammo bins. Thats more than what it costs to put then entire mech back together after a totalhelldeath. I could instead laser up my C1 and cut my per-match expendatures down to 1/3 what they are with an ammo mech (or more, because I pay that ammo cost every match, even when I don't splode).

And our workaround is just as silly. We get the bottom 75% for free, so we end up stacking extra ammo in the mech so that we don't get charged the absurd reload fee. To avoid a metagame penalty, we are penalized on our mech builds. This should not happen at all, let alone to this magnitude.

Change ammo rearm costs so that we pay for every shot, but change the % cost to the same that it is for mechs (in the 1-2% range). Then balance the repair costs of lasers so that one laser repair is approximately as expensive as one missile launcher repair + ammo costs for two rounds (averaging one round of survival and one round of death).




And finally, a list of weapons that you should never consider buffing past their current performance levels because they may already be too good.

Gauss Rifle, SSRM2, SRM6, Small Laser, Medium Laser.

#50 CPL Madison

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 12:46 AM

Gauss rifles seem to now do less damage than throwing snow balls at your opponent

please fix them :P

#51 tbl

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 01:29 AM

I have no clue why they decided to buff LRMs. In my opinion they were perfect before the patch. You needed to fear them but didn't have to expect to get wiped by three volleys from a boat in a dragon.

#52 Gulinborsti

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 03:10 AM

The LRM buff was not required.

However, with 2 x LRM20 a light could already be one-shot killed with 1.7 damage, wrecked 3 Commandos this way lately. But then they were running in the open without cover and most likely without AMS ...

As support weapon against heavier targets they are also fine.

LRMs are well balanced against options to get cover and AMS, I hope this change to 1.8 damage will not make a big difference.

#53 Exinferis

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 03:12 AM

View PostMongoose Trueborn, on 27 November 2012 - 04:52 PM, said:


You must not be playing the same game as me. Before the buff LRMs were OP. Now they just **** everyone and you can't risk moving out from cover without getting crushed.


Phew.... then my Centurion must be faster than any LRM and dodge about half of them. They have been Ok before, and they are still Ok now.
You just have to find a different strategy against them. Ever thought about closing in?

#54 Slanski

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 03:28 AM

View PostEltyr, on 27 November 2012 - 07:42 PM, said:

I can hardly believe the magnitude of the arm movement nerf on the Cataphract. It completely changes the dynamic of playing one. I have definitely noticed easy kills I no longer can get against equally slow targets merely because of this one change. In some situations, the Cataphract is reduced in effectiveness by 50% or more. I know of no one who thought the Cataphract had too much freedom of movement, because it very clearly didn't. At the very least, you should have increased torso twist to compensate, if you were truly unable to fix clipping without nerfing the arms.


Indeed, I circled an Atlas yesterday at a substantial cruising speed of 74kph in my Cataphract and the restriction of arm movement made it impossible to decently outmaneuver the lumbering assault while firing. Please add torso twist to compensate for the (art inspired, so the torso gun doesn't clip!) arm movement nerf.

#55 QuaxDerBruchpilot

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 03:32 AM

View PostFrostbeast, on 27 November 2012 - 11:53 AM, said:

You buffed the Lrms even more!? They were really strong before but now it will get annoying even more. You americans must be really like explosions


Ain't they supposed to be Canadians?

#56 Túatha Dé Danann

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 05:13 AM

Okay, my 2 cents:

The damage buff for the LRMs was the wrong step. The damage was nic,e but the Artemis could have used a buff. Right now, the Artemis is underperforming while the missiles itself do a little too much damage. Change the missiles back to 1.7 and increase the turning rate and focus rate of Artemis fired missiles and everything is fine. I do not want to pay +1 ton/ +1 slot for a guiding bonus you can barely see.

This also goes for the SRM. Increase their focus when they are on Artemis.

Streaks are still OP. My suggestion would be, that they spread like SRM - not so much but a little. It also seems, that the AMS does not perform well against streaks. I think, AMS should be a good counter to streaks. Streak-cat is a no-brainer. AMS too. Perfect counter.

I also feel, that there is something odd with the gauss rifle. They do not hit where they should. I fired them onto a target that was shut down, right into the center torso and hit the left or right torso, sometime the arms. But it was clearly the center torso I hit. Please check the gauss - something is wrong with it. Also the damage seems to be a little off, but I may be wrong with that.

#57 Bannanza

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 05:18 AM

6 vs 1 (me) LRMs for the win. The game is not even fun anymore. Extend the LRM minimum range or reduce the dmg.

I love my streak cat but i do have to admit..OP. My 2 cents (if i had 2 cents) would be to take away homing on them and let them fly straight.

Edited by Bannanza, 28 November 2012 - 05:33 AM.


#58 natasha wolf

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 05:53 AM

Dear Devs,
in my opinion you should change LRM damage to 1.5 until
AMS is really working or you got ECM into the game.
As you know, LRM are doing only 1 damage/missle in
the Tabletop. Why you changed that I do not know, but
the changes are unbalancing the gameplay.
Are you helping the casual gamers to fast and easy kills?

#59 EmperorMyrf

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 06:18 AM

A lot of people are yearning for an MG buff, but the devs need to be very careful when they buff them. As it is, it's the most efficient direct fire weapon around, you just can't tell because no mech is capable of boating them like other weapons. If we look at the Cicada variant that can carry 4 of them, that's only about 4 tons purely dedicated to 1.6 DPS, meaning a DPS/T of .40 (which is crazy high. If any SRM launcher hit in the same armor location every time it would still have a lower value). I would be ok with a damage buff only if they also added heat to the weapon. When mechs come around later that are capable of boating the things we're really going to feel it if they get overpowered and then we're back to the forums asking the devs to nerf.

I think that making the MG be 1 DPS each, in addition to 0.25-0.35 HPS should round it out. It should still have a really high DPS/T simply because it's much more difficult to put all of your DPS in one spot, unlike say an AC/20. If this is still not enough, then just add more DPS and more heat and so on. Ideally, I'd like a mech that carries 2 of them to have some sort of decent damage output from them without making mechs that can boat them OP (piranha, although it's clan).

#60 Túatha Dé Danann

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 06:19 AM

Tabletop? Really? In tabletop, we have a vastly different heat management. In tabletop, we only have half the armor we now have. This game is evolving, cut that tabletop-babble, it is not valid in a real-time game. Really. It was nice as a base to start with, but it is useless for real-time combat. We have to adapt. This is not a turn based game.

To MG's:
It is also very hard to shoot with an AC/2 to one spot 10 successive strikes compared to an AC/20. MGs are secondary weapons and should be used like that. They are fast, produce no heat, have a very short range any can take out a location, that got no armor left. I'm fine with that. But for the tons/range ration, is is somewhat like the small laser, so it should behave similar in the dps.

Compared to the small laser:
Better crit chance
Drawback: Needs ammo.

Balance done.

Edited by Shevchen, 28 November 2012 - 06:23 AM.






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