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Mech And Weapon Balance



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#81 Tolkien

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 11:10 AM

View PostAsatruer, on 28 November 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

In canon, to take advantage of Artemis FCS the missiles do have to be upgraded and are more expensive. Similarly, in canon for LRMs to take advantage of a TAG, they have to be upgraded as well, but those upgraded LRMs were not available until 3057... NARC, on the other hand, did not require an upgrade of the missiles of either LRMs or SRMs.


Ahh ok - I should have said that I never noticed them costing more (enjoy playing the tabletop game from time to time). If I recall Marik were the first to 'rediscover' semi-guided LRMs just prior to the clan invasion.

#82 DemonGuard

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 11:12 AM

View PostSybreed, on 28 November 2012 - 10:11 AM, said:

you do realize that with your suggestion, mechs with only 1 LRM 5, 10 or 15 will be practically worthless. Their 7+ tons of weapons are almost completely countered by 1.5 Tons of AMS?


If your whole team has only 1 LRM5 or 10 than yes, that should be quite useless as long as i have ammo for my AMS. NARC and TAG could reduce the effectiveness of AMS to promote team work.

#83 Asatruer

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 11:14 AM

View PostTolkien, on 28 November 2012 - 11:10 AM, said:


Ahh ok - I should have said that I never noticed them costing more (enjoy playing the tabletop game from time to time). If I recall Marik were the first to 'rediscover' semi-guided LRMs just prior to the clan invasion.

Quiet possibly so, but they were not fielded until 3057. Personally I am waiting impatiently for Swarm-I LRMs.

#84 Tolkien

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 11:16 AM

View PostDemonGuard, on 28 November 2012 - 11:12 AM, said:


If your whole team has only 1 LRM5 or 10 than yes, that should be quite useless as long as i have ammo for my AMS. NARC and TAG could reduce the effectiveness of AMS to promote team work.


I don't know - since I fire my LRM15s one after the other to avoid overheating I find that dual AMS almost completely defeats the volley.

As a habitual LRM boat (graphics card not powerful enough to be effective in close combat, too much stuttering) I find that the lock is lost too easily, the volley moves too slow (10 seconds to reach max range!?), does stupid things like plough into hillsides, etc. Given that a good compromise leaves both parties upset, maybe LRM and AMS are already in balance?


View PostAsatruer, on 28 November 2012 - 11:14 AM, said:

Quiet possibly so, but they were not fielded until 3057. Personally I am waiting impatiently for Swarm-I LRMs.


That sounds like maximum tech sir, which is widely known to be the refuge of the lost and the damned. Why not some bombast lasers, laser heatsinks, or cloaking tesser mechs... oh joy.

Edited by Tolkien, 28 November 2012 - 11:18 AM.


#85 Asatruer

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 11:26 AM

View PostTolkien, on 28 November 2012 - 11:16 AM, said:

That sounds like maximum tech sir, which is widely known to be the refuge of the lost and the damned. Why not some bombast lasers, laser heatsinks, or cloaking tesser mechs... oh joy.
The flames and brimstone on the forums if Swarm-I are ever added would be quite intense wouldn't they! Normal Swarms would cause a different sort of furor, but mostly of your teammates complaining of being hit by "friendly" fire.

#86 Tolkien

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 11:33 AM

View PostAsatruer, on 28 November 2012 - 11:26 AM, said:

The flames and brimstone on the forums if Swarm-I are ever added would be quite intense wouldn't they! Normal Swarms would cause a different sort of furor, but mostly of your teammates complaining of being hit by "friendly" fire.


Could we compromise and just get FASCAM rounds added? Lay down a nice minefield :angry:

View PostElghinn, on 28 November 2012 - 09:32 AM, said:

LRM+Art is very expensive. However I have an Atlas D that has 2 LRM 20's with Art and even getting it shot to pieces costs me 70k ish. While the 11 tons of LRM ammo with Art costs about 105 to 110. So winning you can make money or break even. But that is the risk v. reward. You want to make money, run a commando, jenner, cicada or raven. Heavy's and Assualts do not make money (or lots of money). This has been like this for months. Been vetted and tuned. I still think the rearm is too high while the repair is on target. Probably about a 15% drop in the rearm cost would be just about right.


Isn't this 'role warfare' though? Where each role is equally viable and useful to the team?

Edited by Tolkien, 28 November 2012 - 11:33 AM.


#87 Blinder

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 11:56 AM

LBX AC's- "benefit" was easier to hit with "side effect" of packet damage... the somewhat better chance to get a crit was a small perk and perfectly well represented in a game like this by just spreading the damage around. The main trick is just getting a decent mechanic for representing that spread without making it a traditional FPS shotgun... dunno, saw a comment about them that sounded like a bad turn to me.

MG's- The more 'Mech games I play the more I think these need to just be left on the tabletop, at least until we get to go stomping around on a Planetside server and actually have a ton of infantry to chew up. They always tend to be complete boat-fodder... too heavy/pathetic/risky to keep the usual pair around for chipping away while you cool off, but some 'mech somewhere will show up with 8+ of the things and chew targets apart *quite* unreasonably. IMO pin their overall performance to Small Lasers, including ability to do component damage. It *would* be nice to feel like they can at least do a little something useful, and it'd be even nicer for them to not just be the domain of gimmick builds.

Arm Problems- any way to "separate" the arms at a certain point so things like the Cataphract can at least swing the "same side" arm as far as everyone else even if the other stopped when it would clilp? Maybe a toggle to limit them both, or allow full swing and disable whichever falls behind?

Level 3/Max Tech- just... no.

Narc/TAG/whatever vs. AMS vs. Smaller launchers- A single chance per missile per AMS would be (have been at this point) best, I don't think having other systems screw with the AMS is a good answer though, it just makes mass-LRMs more effective and attractive and still doesn't really do anything for the lone Centurion in a sea of Cicadas, really.

#88 Buckminster

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 12:05 PM

View PostTolkien, on 28 November 2012 - 10:42 AM, said:


My loadout is standard 240 engine, 11 Double Heatsinks, Max Fero Fibrous Armor, Endo-Steel chassis, 2 ALRM 15, 2 Large Lasers.


I think there's your problem. From what I understand FF is stupidly expensive to repair. I've never used it because ES has always been a better weight savings, and I've never had the crits for both.

It's also not helped by the fact that it always takes hits - ES and XL are internals, so the amount of damage they'll take is less.

#89 Malzel

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 12:42 PM

View PostTolkien, on 28 November 2012 - 11:33 AM, said:

Isn't this 'role warfare' though? Where each role is equally viable and useful to the team?

It is, and each role is equally viable and useful to the team, but piloting a heavy or an assault is a privilege, not a right. Piloting an assault 'mech or an LRM boat is and should be expensive, because while you're wading through the enemy in your Atlas or raining Hell from safety of the back ranks in your Catapult A1, it's the scouts and mediums that are doing the hard work, keeping your Atlas' flanks clear and spotting targets for your Catapult.

Now, I'm not saying that piloting heavies and assaults takes no skill, because it does, but you can't deny that it's easy for those high-powered 'mechs to take home all the glory while the little guys often take more risks for less reward. I like how PGI has "soft capped" the big, high-powered builds by saying, "Sure, you can stack 2000 Artemis-equipped LRMs on that Catapult if you want to, but it'll cost you." That means you can have your fun for a few matches, but then you might have to step down off the pedestal of Godhood and slog through the mud with the rest of us once in a while.

Even with that said, I can still agree that re-arming could use some tweaking. I want re-arming to be a balancing factor so that the super-powered cheese builds have to pay for effectiveness, but as someone else said, (Hayashi, I think?) the 75% free "welfare ammo" means that most of us never have pay for ammo and do fine, and I don't like that. That's why energy weapons have all the tradeoffs that they do, because you never have to pay for ammo.

Would decreasing the welfare ammo to 50%, but lowering the actual cost of reloading to compensate be reasonable? I'm okay with some free re-arming, (I'm sure the factions and merc corps subsidize some of that!) but I'd like the free reloads to be low enough that players have to pay for some ammo if they want to be effective.

#90 Tiger 6

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 12:59 PM

I was using an AC20 hunch back most of last weekend, and was doing good damage per shell to whatever I shot at, and got a good number of kills per match. Since the patch it seems to take a lot more rounds to do the same amount of damage - 4 or 5 AC20 strikes to a hunchback or Centurion torso doesn't seem to get getting anywhere near close to killing them now - certainly 1 round used to turn the rear armour of a Hunchy bright red, now its barely going orange?

Anybody else notice this?

#91 Tolkien

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 01:10 PM

Quote

That means you can have your fun for a few matches, but then you might have to step down off the pedestal of Godhood and slog through the mud with the rest of us once in a while.


My match kill/death is 1.12 on 50 games - I don't know if that makes me a minor deity or not...

Regarding stepping down, the big problem is due to the frame rate stuttering in close combat and a 200ms European ping I'm not really effective up close - support is where I have to live due to my apparently not good enough core i7 and 6990M and living on the wrong continent.

I've seen some godlike light pilots with great timing and reaction speed, and I just can't do that with this machine on this connection. Also, firing an AC20 from a hunchback feels like trying to tie shoelaces with boxing gloves on given how often I hit, so again since I am limited to LRM support role I'd like to have it be a viable occupation.

Also, think about what you said about 'having fun for a while then stepping down'. This means that players with money to spend will be able to stay on that pedestal via premium time and pay to win. In my view this is the biggest problem since pay to win is a really bad place to be.

Edited by Tolkien, 28 November 2012 - 01:12 PM.


#92 Finnigan

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 01:53 PM

Streak SRM's need to be looked at. Get a bunch of them piled into a Catapult and my screen becomes a Michael Bay fight scene, no visibility and no way to fight back due to screen shake and explosions.

#93 ExAstris

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 02:21 PM

View PostMalzel, on 28 November 2012 - 12:42 PM, said:

"Sure, you can stack 2000 Artemis-equipped LRMs on that Catapult if you want to, but it'll cost you." That means you can have your fun for a few matches, but then you might have to step down off the pedestal of Godhood and slog through the mud with the rest of us once in a while.


The problem is that you don't pay for the performance, you just pay to play that role. An Artemis LRM cat performs just as well as a non-artemis SRM cat and a quadruple large laser K2 when you have average pilots on both the dealing and recieving ends. As the skill of the pilot decreases, the LRM boat becomes easier to use, but as the skill increases, the SRM cat and LL K2 actually become more effective combatants. Both because they can place damage better, and because there aren't a half dozen ways for competent opponents pilots to counter them.

I own every cat and do everything with them except dual gauss (because I have a conscience), and I can tell you that my LRM boat gets by far the least use. Not because I don't love LRMs, I do love them. But they just aren't as unilaterally effective as other builds because I can not do much in the way of skill to make them better, and competent opponents can negate me easily.


So back to your position. LRM boats aren't paying for Godhood. They're paying to use a different weapon system. One thats great at hosing noobs, sure, but for pros isn't all that fantastic (I'm not the best pilot in MWO by a long shot, but my K:D rarely drops below 2.5:1 either, and I PUG 90% or more of my matches).

So why is it that I have to pay 120,240 c-bills to fully re-arm my Artemis LRM cat (that doesn't include the repair cost), when I could just take my quad LL K2, do just as well or better, not have multiple Achile's Heels (minimum range, useless against lights, up to 10 seconds for opponents to use terrain to dodge, etc), and never pay for re-arm?



The bigger picture here is that people are still trying to justify metagame balance with game balance. Very small doses of this might be acceptable. Running an XL, ES, FF, pile of technology could conceivably reduce your net profit because it costs more to repair, with the benefit of it being more effective than the alternatives. OK. But ammo costs are way out of line with that philosophy. Changing roles is side-grading, not upgrading, yet we're getting hit with the absolute harshes metagame penalty there is. I pay 4 times as much money to fully rearm my LRM boat as I do to completely reconstruct it from scratch. I pay 2 times as much to rearm my non-artemis SRM cat as it does to fully repair it from scratch. That is what is absurd. Since when can you fix a totaled car for 1/4 the price of the fuel in the tank? And if real gas was that expensive, we'd all be driving electric cars within a year, end of story.



Solution:
Reduce gas prices. Increase repair costs to compensate so the economy remains stable overall (if necessary). Charge me for every shot I use in a ballistic/missile weapon, but make it the same percentage cost of repairing the mech (2% or less), and increase the costs of repairing lasers so that repairing a busted laser boat costs approximately as much as fixing a busted ammo boat + 2 rounds worth of ammo (averaging one win/survive and one loss/death).

#94 Malzel

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 02:35 PM

View PostTolkien, on 28 November 2012 - 01:10 PM, said:

Also, think about what you said about 'having fun for a while then stepping down'. This means that players with money to spend will be able to stay on that pedestal via premium time and pay to win. In my view this is the biggest problem since pay to win is a really bad place to be.

Yes, when you pay money to a free-to-play game, you get some advantages over players who don't. Different from other pay-for-perks models, however, MWO doesn't restrict free players to 2nd-rate equipment. "Free" players can get all of the same weapons, upgrades, and loadouts that paying customers can. A free player can build the same "cheese" 'mechs and wreck just as many faces as a paying player can, he just might not be able to pilot that high-powered cheese mech all day, every day like a paying customer can.

I find this completely fair.

Edit: @ExAstris: I think you missed my point. I wasn't complaining about LRMs, in particular, I was just saying that using bigger mechs, high powered weapons, or cutting edge tech costs a lot of money compared to smaller mechs, low power weapons, or standard tech, and rightly so. The logistics of repairing and rearming is a cool balancing factor to the game.

Edited by Malzel, 28 November 2012 - 02:49 PM.


#95 BellatorMonk

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 03:12 PM

If anything I have seen AC20 rounds being way more effective this patch. Hunchback and Centurions have been nicked named "zombie mechs" because they have always seemed to have seriously enhanced ghost armor no matter what hits them. So i don't think it's the AC20.

#96 Assaultfox

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 04:30 PM

I noticed that too. I could take out most mechs in 3-4 rounds. Now I go through half my supply to get a kill. And for all those people who will have something smart to say...yes I aim and yes I hit my target.

#97 Kotsuno

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 04:37 PM

I have not noticed a difference... and my damage / kills / deaths have not changed since patch either =/

#98 Mounty

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 04:37 PM

I can't say for sure, I haven't used AC's for a few months, but I took out the trial mech with the AC10 on it yesterday and it didn't feel like it was doing much damage. In truth the AC10 maybe the only AC I've never used so maybe it's just normal.

#99 Vertrucio

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 05:38 PM

To be honest, I've been feeling the AC/20 hasn't been as effective as it should be for a long time, even before these last few patches.

However, a lot of the time it's when fighting the Hunchbacks and Centurions, so it's nice to know that others have also had the feeling that those are taking too much punishment.

It just seems I get out DPSed by stuff like the UAC5, or just about any AC weapon, although that's probably not so. But one thing is for sure, the other AC weapons do a hell of a lot more stunning effects like screen blur and cockpit shake to even something like my Atlas. Combined with loadouts that allow multiples to be rapidly fired, there's been situations where I can't even land an AC/20 on target at short range because my screen is jumping all over. Meanwhile landing a host with the AC/20 doesn't seem to phase them.

And before the usual idiots come on and wave their e-peen around. Yes, I do aim, and I do hit, and I'm a decent shot with them. I get a lot of really nice light kills with the AC/20.

#100 Scarlett Avignon

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Posted 28 November 2012 - 05:40 PM

Seems just as effective as it's always been.





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