214 replies to this topic

[Odin]

Koningswulf, on 28 November 2012 - 07:18 PM, said:

You devs said you should improve the Ac20 but after this patch it seems even worse than before.
It is still fragile like a gauss (a gauss should be way more fragile)
A AC20 really should have stunning effects like screen blur and cockpit shake,
but it doesnt do any shake of opponent, even a AC2 does that for heavens sake!!!
The DPS is now similiar to other ballistic weapon considering the long cool down and you only have a
limited amount of ammo and very high heat 6 compared to other ballistic weapons
AC 20 the should be terror of the game is now pretty much below average and actually
it is now rather bad compared to other weapons.

I have removed it from my mech and started using other combos.

just my 2cent.

I second this.






Greetings!

Driving Centurion exclusively since last summer, mostly AH, A, Nowadays YLW, and after the last patch I'm back to the A. Sporting the AC10, 2ML and 2STREAK2.

Since I play MW, I love the Big gun (AC20).
Just to let you know, I know, about what I am talking here.

Looks like the DEV'S shy away from it.

Let me explain.
The ballancing efforts always take boating into account, they must. Now, to support the boating, ppl love it they use it, the weopons are tuned, nerved to a point. Yes, there are exceptions. UC5 - STREAKS, mishaps. I think its learning by doining, how could it be other wise? (for the devs)
The nerved the AC20 over the last patches and made her more accessible, playable for the average Joe.
To get hart hitting AC's back, we need to stay on track and support player skill more then, lets call it managing online game mechanic. How to counter Boating? And why, the heck, would they want to? Folks love it O so much.

So, single big weapons, all weapons, are tuned for boating.


Anyway, I haven't had so much fun, with any other game, for the last 10 and some years!
Good job PGI. Love the weapon effects! Great looking visuals! Just get us bigger maps, damn you!


ODIN

Edited by Odin, 29 November 2012 - 03:39 AM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Asatruer, on 29 November 2012 - 01:09 AM, said:

I used to mostly think the doubling of armor was due to the tripling of the RoF, but with every patch that comes out where the heat system is not markedly improved and/or DHS get hit with the nerf bat, the more I think that PGI really wants people to not normally take full advantage of the tripled RoF they provided.

They may have wanted this... But they didn't seem to realize that inherently, some weapons will be able to use their ROF better than others. The game was simply not balanced around the idea that weapons could be fired more often.

An abstract example:
Game A has weapon Alpha and Beta.
Weapon Alpha costs 10 construction points to equip and deals 10 damage every turn. It also costs 10 resource points each turn to fire. To generate 10 resource points per turn, you must install a resource generation that costs 10 construction points.
Weapon Beta costs 10 construction points to equip and deals 10 damage very turn. It costs 19 resource points each turn to fire. To generate 1 resource point per turn, you must install a resource generation that costs 1 construction point.

Total cost of Weapon Alpha to deliver 10 damage per turn: 20 construction points
Total cost of Weapon Beta to deliver 10 damage per turn: 20 construction points.

=> Weapon Alpha and Beta are balanced.


Now, Game B comes along. It is basically Game A, but with a new rule - every weapon can be fired twice per turn.

If you want to fire Weapon A twice per turn, you must have 20 resource points. Generating this resource costs you 20 construction points.
If you want to fire Weapon B twice per trun, you must have 2 resource points. Generating this resource costs you 2 constructions.

Now, the cost of Weapon ALpha to deliver 20 damage per turn: 30 construction points.
Total Cost of Weapon Beta to deliver 20 damage per turn: 21 construction points

=> Weapon Alpha and Beta are no longer balanced.


That's the same principle as we have now with (ER) PPC vs Gauss Rifle. Construction POints = Tonnage; Resource Points = Heat. Some values are a bit difference, but essentially, it costs you 1 extra ton to deliver 15 extra damage per 10 seconds for a Gauss Rifle, and 10 extra tons if you want to deal 10 extra damage with a PPC.

[Buckminster]

ExAstris, on 28 November 2012 - 11:04 PM, said:

In Conclusion:
When LRMs are useful for competative pro play, 90% of the player base will have no fun. When LRMs are balanced to the average player, there will always be players who think they are overpowered easy-mode, and players who think they're just not worth taking.

Thus: LRMs are both overpowered and underpowered.

I primarily PUG, and my founder's cat has a pair of ALRM15s.

In a match this morning, I saw a hunchback peeking over the crest of the hill in Frozen City. Got lock and lobbed a volley at him - square hit. He didn't move or do anything, so I fired again. And again. And again. His poor hunchback took about 15% damage per volley, and the 4th volley killed him. But he never moved, didn't have AMS, didn't do much of anything. So from his perspective, I'm sure it's "OMG LRMs are OP!"

In that same match there was an Atlas at the same crest. He'd pop up, I'd fire. He had an AMS. Sometimes he'd absorb the fire so he could shoot back. Sometimes he'd dodge. Sometimes he'd absorb the hit so that his teammates could keep missile lock on me. He didn't go down as fast, my missiles weren't as effective, and ultimately I died before he did - ironically at the hand of LRMs coming my way.

And all of the "no skill" people don't realize how hard it is to use LRMs *effectively*. Anyone can fill the air with missiles. But when you take all of the factors that LRMs face (AMS, target lock, terrain, travel time, incoming warning) they aren't "easy mode" weapons.

Edit: Whenever someone says "I have 4 LRM20s and 10 tons of ammo and I get 1000 damage" I hear "I fill the air with missiles and hope for the best", which says 'no skill'. I have 2 ALRM15s and 3 tons of ammo, and on a good match I'll get 500-600 damage. Quadruple the weight in weapon systems for double the damage says you are doing something wrong.

Edited by Buckminster, 29 November 2012 - 09:14 AM.

[Tiger 6]

Apostal, on 28 November 2012 - 05:47 PM, said:

I'm finding that sometimes you clip/glace a target and that the splash damage is lost, eg I hit a jenner but might only go yellow or orange on the leg and side torso instead of the leg/core that should've occurred

This seems to be what I'm seeing now, where as over the weekend I was getting body parts turn red instantly.

Could it be a lag issue - more people on line on a week day evening vs a Saturday / Sunday afternoon? A lot of the people reporting no change seem to be either a long way away from the server, or in North America. Is my typical 100ms ping about the tipping point where the lag compensation starts to break down at the server side?

[Asatruer]

Kmieciu, on 29 November 2012 - 02:23 AM, said:

Betty should sound more like...

Think you hit the wrong thread.

MustrumRidcully, on 29 November 2012 - 01:03 AM, said:

Maybe there is way to make LRMs more "skill-based"? What if there was some kind of "lock-on" mini-game?
After the shot, you don't need to maintain a lock, just ensure tha tthe target stays on your radar (or your allies radar) until the missiles are within 100m.

I think you left out a few early steps, at least I hope it was a mistake. Get enemy on radar, use "R" key to lock the target*, move targeting retical to point at the target, then fire.
I like these ideas. At first I was pretty edgy about your example of using 50% head hitting, but since you were talking about using what is essentially a laser and a zoom function to trace the targeting beam on the enemy mech, the real in game chance of being able to target the head that much would be pretty small. The Picture-in-Picture targeting window might be a bit strong, as it could become a free Advanced Zoom module (or whatever that thing is called) for free, one way to possibly compensate is increase the erratic spread of the missiles beyond where your beam targeted by an increasing amount depending on range. Possibly the PiP could be left as a feature of Artemis FCS, and regular LRMs have to put up with the targeting beam using normal zoom like a Large Laser user would have to. In either case, I think that this would be a good idea for LOS shooting, but that for indirect fire a closer to the current system with, but with a higher arc and a larger spread and never any Artemis buff might be the better option.

In your vision of this idea, would you have multiple LRM packs being group fired use the same one targeting session, or something else like increasing the beam time to reflect the number of packs, but the packs all firing at once?

*two, you bait the line, and three, you slowly spread the net, and four you catch the man!

MustrumRidcully, on 29 November 2012 - 04:45 AM, said:

They may have wanted this... But they didn't seem to realize that inherently, some weapons will be able to use their ROF better than others. The game was simply not balanced around the idea that weapons could be fired more often.

Agreed.

Buckminster, on 29 November 2012 - 04:57 AM, said:

I primarily PUG, and my founder's cat has a pair of ALRM15s.

In a match this morning, I saw a hunchback peeking over the crest of the hill in Frozen City. ...

In that same match there was an Atlas at the same crest. ...

Clearly that crest is OP! I have witnessed time and time again where a team sits back in cover watching that crest and destroys the poor team that is trying to use the crest to peak out, and then ducks back under a barrage of fire, only to peak back again and again. Though to be fair I have seen that tactic fail to a good fast team that then just flanks.

Buckminster, on 29 November 2012 - 04:57 AM, said:

Edit: Whenever someone says "I have 4 LRM20s and 10 tons of ammo and I get 1000 damage" I hear "I fill the air with missiles and hope for the best", which says 'no skill'. I have 2 ALRM15s and 3 tons of ammo, and on a good match I'll get 500-600 damage. Quadruple the weight in weapon systems for double the damage says you are doing something wrong.

Yeah, boating a large amount of weapons and leveraging the fact that if one weapon hits all weapons hit works pretty well.

[mekabuser]

the missile system in mwo is the easiest to use in all the mw titles ive tried. Mind you , thats not even utilizing the mechanic whereby you follow someone elses lock. Ive only used them psuedo regularly on the trial atlas that has them. IDK how that system works so I never bothered even firing a volley that i didnt target acquire myself<which is far to fast imo>
Anyways, they are easy mode, other than making sure you dont hit terrain.

That being said, they arent Op, min bf awareness provides more than enough cover and tbh I dont even think about missile boats at all . They really arent an issue as long as you dont stand on top of a ridge motionless for 30 seconds at a time.
The only time they were ever OP was a few patch back b4 the hotfix.

That being said also, It skeeves me seeing the amount of lrm i see in the air, but I do understand for many players with low framerates and ping issue its a viable way to play .

[MustrumRidcully]

Quote

In your vision of this idea, would you have multiple LRM packs being group fired use the same one targeting session, or something else like increasing the beam time to reflect the number of packs, but the packs all firing at once?

Good question. I am not sure if it would be OP or not if all missiles can hit the exact same spot. But .. If their damage was 1/missile, that's basically like hitting with an AC/5, AC/10, AC/15 or AC/20. So it shouldn't be a real problem.

So I might simply not adjust anything. If you really manage to nail a single location for the entire second, good for you.

[Mick Mars]

Ultra ac/5

Jams on the first shot

fix it please

[EmperorMyrf]

Mustrum, I think your idea would hurt mechs with mixed loadouts far more than LRM boats. Take a stock CN9-A. If it wants to fire its LRMs it would basically have to stop what it'd doing and dedicate all of the pilots time and focus to ensure that the shots hit.

Even if there was some sort of default hit rate for those that want to ignore the minigame, that would create a somewhat large performance gap between mechs that have LRMs as their primary and mechs that have them as their secondary, which is already an issue without the minigame.

Edit: I reread the steps to the minigame, and I feel I may have exaggerated the effects on a mixed loadout, but I do perceive it to still be a potential issue. Perhaps no more focus than a laser needs, but that's one more weapon type that uses a "beam length" so to speak.

Mick Mars, on 29 November 2012 - 10:03 AM, said:

Ultra ac/5

Jams on the first shot

fix it please

It'll only jam if you hold the trigger. Click and release when the weapon has recycled and it will never jam.

Though I would say that I'd like for the round to still fire and jam right after it, so that you're guaranteed one double shot.

Edited by EmperorMyrf, 29 November 2012 - 11:06 AM.

[Tolkien]

My main concern is still the repair/reload costs of ALRM, FF armor, Endosteel, double heatsinks, etc. making them very similar to pay to win.

Let me flesh out the differences between how things work here, and how things work in a very popular and well done Free-To-Play game - League of Legends.

In league of legends you have three 'currencies' - two are earned, one is bought. These are XP, IP and RP (experience points, Influence points, and riot points) respectively. XP is similar to XP here in MWO since it makes the 'pilot' better in both cases - this is balanced by having higher level 'pilots' in LOL tend to face other high level 'pilots' as well as a ranking system that forces your long term wins/losses to be close to 50/50 by always finding you a challenging match.

In League of legends IP are sort of like Cbills in MWO, you use them to buy upgrades (runes) for your mechs (champions). The difference is that in league of legends you never lose/use IP by playing a match. It only goes down when you buy a new 'mech' (hero) or when you buy new 'equipment' (runes). This is the first big difference, in that you can't buy IP ever in League of legends you can only earn it. There are boosts that make you earn faster but those are completely optional.

Riot points in league of legends are the paid for currency and they only let you buy skins, champs or boosts (faster progress). In MWO MC can be used to buy mechs that can then be sold for Cbills and used to trick out a mech faster than you should be able to.

Also, since Cbills can currently be used up/lost in matches by fielding 'better/expensive' equipment it means that there is a play advantage.

Now before you react, consider also the tragedy of the commons that this creates: Since you make way more by fielding the cheapest possible mech rather than the best possible mech for a given role the motivation for the individual player is to minimize their contribution to the team. Since your savings are 100% yours to keep, but the risk is only 12.5% (1/8 of the team) yours, the advantage for the individual is to field a cheap crappy mech.

If it stays this way I am going to put a 100 engine in a commando and be useless, but with a 10k repair bill I will still earn more than a win in my catapult with a 75k ammo bill

[Tarys]

I have the feeling that the rear armor of a Raven is bugged (to low / not counting right). Just got killed by an alpha of a streakcat into my back - before that no damage to this hitzone. Before this battle my armor went to critical with one LRM salvo and so on ...

Would be nice if someone could test it out.
Btw. rear armor is 12 ct / 10 for the other 2

[Buckminster]

That actually sounds about right. 6 SSRm2 does 30 damage - more than enough to shred your mech. And the same with LRMs - 5 does 9 damage, which is awfully close to what you have.

And being the back, it is possible you were hit by something else? Maybe an LRM10 instead of an LRM 5, or a laser mixed in?

[MustrumRidcully]

EmperorMyrf, on 29 November 2012 - 10:55 AM, said:

Mustrum, I think your idea would hurt mechs with mixed loadouts far more than LRM boats. Take a stock CN9-A. If it wants to fire its LRMs it would basically have to stop what it'd doing and dedicate all of the pilots time and focus to ensure that the shots hit.

Even if there was some sort of default hit rate for those that want to ignore the minigame, that would create a somewhat large performance gap between mechs that have LRMs as their primary and mechs that have them as their secondary, which is already an issue without the minigame.

Edit: I reread the steps to the minigame, and I feel I may have exaggerated the effects on a mixed loadout, but I do perceive it to still be a potential issue. Perhaps no more focus than a laser needs, but that's one more weapon type that uses a "beam length" so to speak.

Maybe it could be the indirect only fire mode. When you're using that, you're not really fighting something else, usually. I am all for making direct fire and indirect fire two different things. That will allow balancing weapons better. I think LRMs should be similar effective as direct-fire weapons when you shoot at targets in sight. (But not quite as effective, since they have also their indirect-fire ability).

[EmperorMyrf]

MustrumRidcully, on 29 November 2012 - 01:44 PM, said:

Maybe it could be the indirect only fire mode. When you're using that, you're not really fighting something else, usually. I am all for making direct fire and indirect fire two different things. That will allow balancing weapons better. I think LRMs should be similar effective as direct-fire weapons when you shoot at targets in sight. (But not quite as effective, since they have also their indirect-fire ability).

Ah, now that I could get behind so long as there's some sort of performance ceiling. Someone could potentially use an aimbot on the minigame and have the reticle centered on their desired hitbox to ensure every one of them lands where they want it, so I'd like it if it were not a guarantee that the missiles hit where aimed. Just make it enough that the missiles will only just try to aim for that hitbox.

[Buckminster]

But this would entail adding an "indirect fire" mode, which we don't really have. It would also imply that we have a "direct fire" mode, where presumably the missiles would take a straighter, more direct route, rather than a long, slow arc up in the air.

All this would really do is make sure no one uses LRMs. Different fire modes with different fire methods would just be yet another in the long list of ways that people are trying to make LRMs "fair" that ultimately makes them harder to use. Right now it's the only weapon that requires a lock (which takes time), requires you to maintain lock (which takes skill), alerts the target that he's under attack (which gives him time to get out of the way), has several active defense methods (AMS and ECM) and has absolute minimum and maximum ranges.

And for full disclosure, I waffle between two mechs - my Founder's Cat C1 with two ALRM15s or my K2 with twin PPCs. I tend to get better games out of my C1, but that has as much to do with the upgrades I've put into it - the K2 is just about stock.

Edited by Buckminster, 29 November 2012 - 02:16 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Definitely upgrade to Double Heat Sinks with your K2... And ditch the MGs for more DHS or a larger engine (more engine heat sinks are good.)[/off-topic]

Yes, indirect fire mode would be anew thing. Which is why it's probably a pie in the sky dream and not something we'll ever see. Hope springs eternal.

[TinyG]

IMOO
BEFORE clan invasion there have been no double heat sinks, er ppc(totally useless in this game until now, a ppc can meld down a smaller reactor for shotdown), STREAK missles (oh my god what did u ........ do with the f....... missles????!!!! - 20 lrm does 20 damage with full hit, ppc does 15 non-clan version but no hit does this damage) double heat sinks (cmon guys double heat sinks in inner sphere mechs pre clan time) streak (what did u think, streak means what? - fire and forget? the whole game now is missles from overpaid and tactical braindead gamers playin missles users)... light structure and xl reactors ( sry thats clan tech on its finest), pulse lasers (are not existent before clan invasion) and lbx auto cannons (large bore xtended and ultra versions is clan tech too).
Fanpro was 1.st class to keep the board game alive in the 80s, even microsoft respected its rules, m. a. stackpole oversized technology of the story but you ...you didnt learn from this.
I wonder after all this equipe why dont you give paying players direct dire wolfs, vultures and mad cats....now how you programmed this game, i just need a catapult with a few 6strk srm and i can even kill an atlas between 270-0 metres distance.
I will keep black knights and mw4 mercenaries as a stunning experience, until you do your homework.
A desperately disappointed mw fan till ´88.

[Buckminster]

MustrumRidcully, on 29 November 2012 - 02:20 PM, said:

Definitely upgrade to Double Heat Sinks with your K2... And ditch the MGs for more DHS or a larger engine (more engine heat sinks are good.)[/off-topic]

Yes, indirect fire mode would be anew thing. Which is why it's probably a pie in the sky dream and not something we'll ever see. Hope springs eternal.

I've thrown on ES, dumped the MGs, added AMS, some armor and some heat sinks. DHS are next, after I buy my third catapult (yay XP grinding). Maybe then I'll upgrade to ERPPCs to get rid of the minimum range.

Have you played WoT? Their artillery mode is fairly slick, and I wonder if they'll incorporate something like that when we get into the really big guns. I shudder to think of the day they bring Long Toms into it. :-)

[Tolkien]

TinyG, on 29 November 2012 - 02:21 PM, said:

IMOO
BEFORE clan invasion there have been no double heat sinks, er ppc(totally useless in this game until now, a ppc can meld down a smaller reactor for shotdown), STREAK missles (oh my god what did u ........ do with the f....... missles????!!!! - 20 lrm does 20 damage with full hit, ppc does 15 non-clan version but no hit does this damage) double heat sinks (cmon guys double heat sinks in inner sphere mechs pre clan time) streak (what did u think, streak means what? - fire and forget? the whole game now is missles from overpaid and tactical braindead gamers playin missles users)... light structure and xl reactors ( sry thats clan tech on its finest), pulse lasers (are not existent before clan invasion) and lbx auto cannons (large bore xtended and ultra versions is clan tech too).
Fanpro was 1.st class to keep the board game alive in the 80s, even microsoft respected its rules, m. a. stackpole oversized technology of the story but you ...you didnt learn from this.
I wonder after all this equipe why dont you give paying players direct dire wolfs, vultures and mad cats....now how you programmed this game, i just need a catapult with a few 6strk srm and i can even kill an atlas between 270-0 metres distance.
I will keep black knights and mw4 mercenaries as a stunning experience, until you do your homework.
A desperately disappointed mw fan till ´88.

I think I follow your argument, but I believe that some of the successor states were starting to independently discover/re-discover some technologies prior to the clan invasion. IIRC Davion had figured out the double heatsink and triple strength myomer, while Marik had figured out semi-guided LRMs and/or streak SRMs.

This might have been a retcon into the lore after the clan invasion, but I believe it's cannon to see some of this equipment (just not in the amounts that we see now).

[TinyG]

Tolkien, on 29 November 2012 - 02:36 PM, said:

I think I follow your argument, but I believe that some of the successor states were starting to independently discover/re-discover some technologies prior to the clan invasion. IIRC Davion had figured out the double heatsink and triple strength myomer, while Marik had figured out semi-guided LRMs and/or streak SRMs.

This might have been a retcon into the lore after the clan invasion, but I believe it's cannon to see some of this equipment (just not in the amounts that we see now).

we are talkin about those equipe in test pahes and validation before clan invasion, not the kind of "buy a mech get 6 srm streak for free" as this game is telling me. MASC had an overhead reaction malus in the board game, IIRC was used by prince davion befor he was shot down ( on a kings mech itself) and the semi guided LRMs of marik even had no real effect on the inner sphere before clan invasion.
Its like that : put in enough streak srm in a mech or perhaps lrms (befor last patch) and you gonna hit....but in board game most limited source has been heat.....now u shot down with an awesome after 6 ppc hits an the 50 tons hunchback with 3 6strek srm does more dmg in 6 secnonds without hitkill or shotdown.
Thats not battlemech, maybe call gundam something and make it androgyn and more colorful