208 replies to this topic

[Ransack]

Kousagi, on 28 November 2012 - 07:40 AM, said:

The can't lock missiles will only take effect if the ECM is within 180m of you, which if you are firing LRM's at a mech 180m's from you, then I feel for you. If anything, this is more a nerf to SSRM's, Which is a good thing as SSRM's are retardly op right now vs anything.

The problem is that on some maps, a Jenner could be well within that 180 meters in a heartbeat.

[Kousagi]

Ransack, on 28 November 2012 - 07:45 AM, said:

The problem is that on some maps, a Jenner could be well within that 180 meters in a heartbeat.

Thats any light mech, as Each light mech that can mount the ECM all can hit the speed cap of 140. Its not some magical thing only the jenner can do.

[Orkhepaj]

Lets shoot every jenners!!!

[Taryys]

I am currently of the mind that

* all Ravens should have access to ECM
* if a Jenner is going to have access to it, then it should be the K
* BAP should not be completely negated only reduce in effectiveness, perhaps allow sharing of targets and decrease the lockon time to normal, or something like that.

[Alex Wolfe]

Kousagi, on 28 November 2012 - 07:50 AM, said:

Thats any light mech, as Each light mech that can mount the ECM all can hit the speed cap of 140. Its not some magical thing only the jenner can do.

ECM + speed cap + jump jets

a magical thing only the jenner can do.

Why even put other lights in the game at this point?

[Kousagi]

Alex Wolfe, on 28 November 2012 - 07:58 AM, said:

ECM + speed cap + jump jets

a magical thing only the jenner can do.

Why even put other lights in the game at this point?

And thats why the argument should be to move it to the K, and not have it on the D. Argument should not be to remove it from a light mech.

[Mancu]

Ransack, on 28 November 2012 - 07:41 AM, said:

I guess I will spend the rest of phase 1 piloting my founder's Jenner. Can anyone recommend a decent build? As currently configured, I overheat a lot.

Jenners really do not need any sort of buffage at all in my opinion.

Switch out your medium lasers for smalls and put the saved tonnage back into heat sinks.

[Orzorn]

Kousagi, on 28 November 2012 - 07:40 AM, said:

The can't lock missiles will only take effect if the ECM is within 180m of you, which if you are firing LRM's at a mech 180m's from you, then I feel for you. If anything, this is more a nerf to SSRM's, Which is a good thing as SSRM's are retardly op right now vs anything.

False:
When a Mech is hidden by a friendly ECM:

• When a Mech is hidden by a friendly ECM:Enemy Mechs will have to come within 1/4 the normal distance (200 m instead of 800 m, by default) for hidden Mechs to show up on their battlegrid and HUD.

When your Mech is disrupted by an enemy ECM:

• You cannot share any targeting data with the rest of your team, and vice versa.
  
• It takes twice as long to achieve a missile lock against a hidden Mech.

The disruption bubble is 180 meters. The protection bubble is 200 meters. This means that an LRM boat must either have an ally stand in that 20 meter band, or they must do it themselves. The LRM boat can not actually lock on to the enemy from 200 meters away, by themselves (that's why the need the ally in the 20 meter band) due to the 1/4th normal distance it takes for hidden mechs to even show up (and you can't press R to lock them if you can't see them on your HUD).

When they are standing in that narrow 20 meter band, it will take twice as long for any missile to achieve lock, meaning they likely won't get them off at all if the Jenner notices the spotter and moves towards them to cut them off.

So, no, you can't just launch missiles at them from a distance. You have to get close enough to get a lock but stay far enough away so that you can actually still get a lock (or, once again, have a spotter do this for you). This is VERY MUCH a way to seriously shut down LRM users.

Edited by Orzorn, 28 November 2012 - 08:17 AM.

[Ransack]

Kousagi, on 28 November 2012 - 07:50 AM, said:

Thats any light mech, as Each light mech that can mount the ECM all can hit the speed cap of 140. Its not some magical thing only the jenner can do.

Agreed. I should have said lights. It was my Jenner bias talking. The title of the thread mentions Jenners specifically, so....

Edited by Ransack, 28 November 2012 - 08:15 AM.

[Alex Wolfe]

Kousagi, on 28 November 2012 - 08:02 AM, said:

And thats why the argument should be to move it to the K, and not have it on the D. Argument should not be to remove it from a light mech.

Huh? Why? K gets speed cap + jump jets combo as well. It being "the worst Jenner" only makes it "ex aequo second best light mech in the game".

Raven 2x - top speed 113 kph, no jump jets, 5 hardpoints
Raven 3l - top speed 136 kph, no jump jets, 5 hardpoints
Raven 4x - top speed 113 kph, jump jets, 5 hardpoints

Jenner D - top speed 139 kph AND jump jets, SIX hardpoints
Jenner F - top speed 139 kph AND jump jets, SIX hardpoints
Jenner K - top speed 139 kph AND jump jets, 5 hardpoints

Too much of a good thing. Each Raven is flawed in some way, and that's even before counting awkward hardpoints and big size. Even the "worst" Jenner is still better than the best Raven. There's literally no case to be had here.

No way in hell should a Jenner get ECM. Period. K has one more module slot, like it or not, but them's the breaks. It sure doesn't deserve ECM just for having one small missile hardpoint less than its ubiquitous Uberbrother. I don't want a 140 kph jumpjetting 4ML + SRM6 invisible Jenner as the new king light mech of MWO, now and forever.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 28 November 2012 - 08:46 AM.

[Aegis Kleais]

SpiralRazor, on 27 November 2012 - 10:12 PM, said:

Theres no need to test it...its simply over powered from the get go unless it functions SIGNIFICANTLY different then whats described.

And why would they do that?

I don't think balancing a game of this magnitude is as easy as people make it out to be. With the gauss issue, PGI decided to do something other than adjust its common numeric values like heat generated, range, etc. We might find that this perfectly resolves the issue, we might find it doesn't. It just takes time and public playtesting to figure it out.

Thing is, many people will openly defy PGI when they say they're going to nerf something that they're currently using. For example, I'm running a 4x Large Laser Cataphract. And even though I feel Large Lasers should get a slight bump up in damage (in the range of +10%), if PGI turned around and said they were reducing their damage instead, then you just gotta adjust to the balancing they're doing.

Like software development, I think it's more difficult than people who don't do it know it to be.

[Comguard]

Imo the only reason to include the Jenner D is to satisfy the goldies. Now they can enjoy their OP mech even longer and still sing the song of "Everything is ok...stupid PUGs...lag-shield is skill..." and so on.

I'm playing the Jenner, and know how annoying it can be: protected by lagshield trololol circlestrafing the enemy to death, assisted by never-missing SSRMs, unstoppable because falls don't exist - that has nothing to do with skill.

And now I can even distort the enemy minimap and HUD? And protect myself from the only anti-Jenner weapon around? I wonder how the Jenner could be made even more annoying.

[Kousagi]

ECM does not prevent locking on to a mech unless it is in 180m, just cause you can't see the mech via sensors does not mean its preventing you from locking on. If you tag the target, it will show up on sensors, so any Missile boat should now start carrying tag, this will give you a 500m range to the target if you maintain LOS.

Edited by Kousagi, 28 November 2012 - 09:05 AM.

[Alex Wolfe]

Kousagi, on 28 November 2012 - 08:42 AM, said:

Also WHY do people keep saying the Jenner K has jumpjets when it does not have jumpjets....

Oh-hoh-hoh-hoh really?

You sure you have enough info to make an educated judgment on this case, then?

http://www.mwowiki.o...le=Jenner_JR7-K

[TungstenWall]

I don't like the idea of Jenner-d getting ECM
I went COM (1D) so i could have electronic superiority over the Jenner >.<

BUT! i think something has to be pointed out.

I may have miss understood this, but from what i understand, you can share targets within the ECM bubble if one friendly player is within locking range hidden targets, and another is in LoS to the first but is outside of the ECM cloud.

In theory (if i understood correctly) a Brawler and DFS coudl negate the ECM effect as long as they stay in LoS and alive.
Of course that is easier said then done.

Edited by TungstenWall, 28 November 2012 - 08:49 AM.

[Daimonos]

I'm most concerned about the 'invisibility bubble' effect of ECM. Glob several D-DCs with ECM together and advance. Apply streaks to lights that stray into the bubble. Appear as a lump at the enemy base.

ECM as described will have an overpowering effect on how we play this game. It's a 1.5 ton must-have item: you must have it, and you must have as many or more than your opponents. This makes me uneasy.

Also, it's a shame about ravens. We won't be seeing more of them as a result of this. And they look and taste like chicken. Mmm, chicken.

[Orzorn]

Kousagi, on 28 November 2012 - 08:42 AM, said:

ECM does not prevent locking on to a mech unless it is in 180m, just cause you can't see the mech via sensors does not mean its preventing you from locking on. If you tag the target, it will show up on sensors, so any Missile boat should now start carrying tag, this will give you a 500m range to the target if you maintain LOS.

TAG does not help unless the LRM user presses R to target them. It isn't like MWLL where LRMs will follow the TAG laser (regardless of target).

Also, please tell me how I can lock missiles on a mech I can not target? The answer is that you can not. There is no mechanic that has appeared in this game that allows the user to do such a thing. You either get a lock with R and holding the reticule over them, or you dumb fire the missiles at a spot on the ground. With SSRMs, you can only do the former.

Thus, not showing up on HUD and minimap = No lock outside of 200 meters/inside 180 meters.

[The Mecha Streisand]

I think this is going to force us back to more traditional, conservative tactics. There will be more emphasis on keeping the lights, at least those that may be ECM equipped, from making rushes into the midst of one's own force. Those ECM-equipped mechs will have incentive to get closer to enemy mechs, especially streak cats, and stay in close range. As the game comes along, I'd like to see more teams using this sparingly and deliberately.

One improvement I'd like to see is the ability to disrupt cap accelerators within that 180m range as well. And mutual ECM disruption would be interesting...

[BigJim]

p00k, on 28 November 2012 - 07:16 AM, said:

no one said the sky is falling. it isn't dec 4 yet obviously hope i see you in my jenner next week

What should I bring to the party? My own Jenner with ECM?
Should I use my tournament build Jenner, or my other ones?
Perhaps my Jenner-eating Cicada?

I'm only annoyed that they're using the Jenn-D, my personal favourite has always been the Jenner-F, imho that's the real connoisseur's Jenner.

[Destoroyah]

TungstenWall, on 28 November 2012 - 08:46 AM, said:

I don't like the idea of Jenner-d getting ECM
I went COM (1D) so i could have electronic superiority over the Jenner >.<

BUT! i think something has to be pointed out.

I may have miss understood this, but from what i understand, you can share targets within the ECM bubble if one friendly player is within locking range hidden targets, and another is in LoS to the first but is outside of the ECM cloud.

In theory (if i understood correctly) a Brawler and DFS coudl negate the ECM effect as long as they stay in LoS and alive.
Of course that is easier said then done.

Speaking of commandos I agree the 1D should be getting the ECM not the 2D. The 2D is arguable the best commando of the set. While the 1D shares a similiar loadout to the 3A the 3A gots much better weapon distribution and can use bigger launchers. The 1D has both it's missles restricted to the CT restricting it to 2 streaks or 2 srm4s and both the energy HP are on the same arm unlike the 3A. So if any commando needs the boost the 1D does as I've only ever seen 2-3 non-trial in all my times of playing. The 1B is a close contender and would make a good support mech for the big boys masking them while plicking away with long range energy weapons.