134 replies to this topic

[Roland]

Fedifensor, on 27 November 2012 - 09:51 PM, said:

Which have a range of 450 m, and won't work once inside ECM (180 m). So, you've just reduced the LRM's range of 1000m to 450m...assuming a light mech doesn't get to within 180m while you're trying to fire at that Atlas...

Think, dude. Think about ways it can work.

Scenario 1:
I run a scout mech, with tag. I tag a target from 450m.
You, being an LRM mech, then proceed to target that mech that I am tagging. You shoot missiles at it from 1000m, and blow it up. Yay!

Scenario 2:
I run a mech with ECM myself. I run up to the mech which is being shielded by ECM, and flip my ECM into counter mode. You shoot missiles at it from 1000m and blow it up. Yay again!

OR, you shoot it with OTHER WEAPONS. There are in fact weapons in this game which aren't missiles, which you aim and shoot.

[Sneeky BERT]

Kaijin, on 27 November 2012 - 05:20 PM, said:

That would defeat the purpose of the build, which is to be able to fire one's LRMs in peace without being chewed to pieces by the Jenner God. You want to talk about horrifically bad imbalance - start with that particular 35 tons of death. Every mech has to be examined when being designed, and the question asked, "But can I fight a Jenner with it?" It's insane. But clearly, the Jenner is sombody's favorite mech at PGI and so it will never be nerfed. And whatdoyouknow - coming soon...Jenners with ECM!

^ This a million times over.... I use a A1 aswell with 2 lrm15art and 4 streaks.. My main use is for long range and close in for support when it gets end game. PGI will just negate the use of streaks for any build except the all powerful jenner/raven/commando.
Yes I can mount 4 srm pods but have you ever tried to target a jacked up crackhead jenner that is maxed out XP and an xl 300?
even with ssrms it is tough to get a lock on them when they are going 149kph..
Yeah spray and pray will be all you can do which is just dumb considering A1s are supposed to be arty support but arty is always the first to be targeted by lights.
So now I will just run a light setup with ecm considering I have them unlocked in xp now except for the ceramic commandos.

Just give me the same stupid crap about well you should work as a team and have support around you..BAH!! thats bullsh_t and you know it... Anyone that really believes that is just being naive.. So I should just keep a recon mech standing next to my arty build to negate the ecm but I in return will not get recon.... nice...............BAH!

[Roland]

Quote

Yeah spray and pray will be all you can do which is just dumb considering A1s are supposed to be arty support but arty is always the first to be targeted by lights.

Which is why you have other mechs on your team protect them.. either by mounting ECM and coming into the area, which then makes your SSRM's work perfectly fine on the Jenner, and you can then obliterate him with them..

Or by just coming in and killing the jenner.

[Sneeky BERT]

Roland, on 27 November 2012 - 10:21 PM, said:

Which is why you have other mechs on your team protect them.. either by mounting ECM and coming into the area, which then makes your SSRM's work perfectly fine on the Jenner, and you can then obliterate him with them..

Or by just coming in and killing the jenner.

So basicaly it will only ever be viable to play a missile build if you are apart of a premade..
No my friend I believe what we will see is more lag spiking LOLZ jenner gods than we ever had before..
But im sure yall have a perfect armchair general counter to that...
BUT BUT BUT WHAT ABOUT TAG.... LOL have yall ever used tag on a mech doing circles at 149 kph? and can close range and negate the tag within 2 seconds?
Ok ok ... yeahhhhhh we will see.

[Shredhead]

Roland, on 27 November 2012 - 10:21 PM, said:

Which is why you have other mechs on your team protect them.. either by mounting ECM and coming into the area, which then makes your SSRM's work perfectly fine on the Jenner, and you can then obliterate him with them..

Or by just coming in and killing the jenner.

Yeah, sure, because that's absolutely plausible. I don't know where you come from, but even hitting a Jenner with lasers is nigh on impossible now, the only way to counter their lagshielded nontripping imbaness is with streaks, which will then be completely useless for every effing mech!
Next week supposedly phase 2 starts, without class matching! Shall I tell you what we'll see? You've got three guesses free.

[hammerreborn]

Shredhead, on 27 November 2012 - 10:41 PM, said:

Yeah, sure, because that's absolutely plausible. I don't know where you come from, but even hitting a Jenner with lasers is nigh on impossible now, the only way to counter their lagshielded nontripping imbaness is with streaks, which will then be completely useless for every effing mech!
Next week supposedly phase 2 starts, without class matching! Shall I tell you what we'll see? You've got three guesses free.

I've never used a streak in my life yet I've killed plenty of lights...strange that. It's like aiming requires skill (I get that you're an EU player but still).

And streaks work as long as you have an atlas or a friendly light with you.

Edited by hammerreborn, 27 November 2012 - 10:57 PM.

[Society]

I don't get the complaining... Now tag once again has purpose, and a "scout mech" will finally be a freaking scout and not just a super fast durable striker.

Putting a tag, ecm, bap, and narc on a raven might actually be worth a damn to do finally. Turn that thing into the technological marvel it's meant to be.

Streakapults are still useful, they will just need to be near a friendly ecm or have tag.

LRM's are still useful, but will require the support of allies with tag or ecm to counter enemy ecm.

[SteelPaladin]

When all of the suggestions for dealing w/ECM start w/"you and a team-mate," there is a problem.

Now I have no problem w/teamwork-based tactics, but using the ECM doesn't require them. ECM's effectiveness can be ENHANCED by effective teamwork (which is the way things should work), but it is perfectly viable as a self-defense system just for the mech that has it. You don't NEED teamwork to benefit from it; it just makes it even more valuable.

If counters to ECM REQUIRE teamwork to function, then there is a fundamental imbalance in the design. If something only requires 1 mech to use but 2 mechs to beat, it is impossible for it to be balanced. Either it needs to require 2 mechs to use and 2 mechs to beat, or (if a lone mech can use it perfectly effectively) it needs to also be counterable by a lone mech.

That is why I was very surprised to hear that BAP is completely nullified by ECM. It is the perfect opportunity to have a lone mech counter to lone mech ECM. It's an investment that one mech has to make to balance the investment of the ECM mech, and it isn't even a hard counter to ECM. If BAP only increased sensor range by a percentage of the 200m ECM range, then a BAP mech would have an advantage over a non-BAP mech against ECM, but would STILL be seeing degraded performance against an ECM mech versus a mech w/no ECM.

[Tuhalu]

Roland, on 27 November 2012 - 09:59 PM, said:

Think, dude. Think about ways it can work.

Scenario 1:
I run a scout mech, with tag. I tag a target from 450m.
You, being an LRM mech, then proceed to target that mech that I am tagging. You shoot missiles at it from 1000m, and blow it up. Yay!

Scenario 2:
I run a mech with ECM myself. I run up to the mech which is being shielded by ECM, and flip my ECM into counter mode. You shoot missiles at it from 1000m and blow it up. Yay again!

OR, you shoot it with OTHER WEAPONS. There are in fact weapons in this game which aren't missiles, which you aim and shoot.

When designing a system for balance, you have to look at the entire environment of play in which it exists. You can't count on every player being too stupid to know what to do, nor can you count on every player reacting perfectly every time.

Here are a few more very possible scenarios which outline how your scenarios could end.

Scenario 1a:
You being a scout mech with TAG, tag a target from 450m. An enemy scout seeing that, runs over and blocks your TAG with his ECM within 5 seconds. Oops, no worky.

Scenario 1aa:
Your scout mech is running TAG and ECM in counter mode.

Scenario 1b:
You being a scout mech with TAG, tag a target from 450m.
Your group member, being an LRM mech, then proceeds to target that mech that you are tagging. Oops, too late, a scout mech ran on top of your group members mech and completely nullified their ability to lock onto anything.

Scenario 1ba:
Your LRM boat is running ECM in counter mode (only available to the Atlas D-DC though).

Scenario 1c:
You being a scout mech with TAG, tag a target from 450m.
Woops, you are on a map with cover (including Caustic Valley) and you can't actually do that. Because it's far too easy for the target to break your LOS at range.

Scenario 1d:
You being a scout mech with TAG, tag a target from 450m.
Woops, they move pretty fast and you are moving pretty fast so it's very very hard to keep your laser on target without getting your mech gunned out from under you. You can't keep your laser on target for the whole 10 seconds it takes for someone to lock on with their missiles, fire them and get them to actually reach the target.

Scenario 2a:
You run a mech with ECM yourself. You run up to the mech which is being shielded by ECM, and flip your ECM into counter mode. The enemy laughs because that only blocked out one of the ECM effects and there is still 1-7 more to go.

Scenario 2aa:
Lucky you, the enemy only had 1 ECM carrying mech, so you rushing directly into close range with them wasn't a terrible idea.

The real kicker? That scout mech running at 450m with his TAG beam is probably not hitting a hell of a lot with his own weapon systems and he sure isn't all over the enemy shooting them in the backside. You are just about asking a friendly mech to neuter himself so that you can be less effected by a 1.5 ton piece of equipment.

[Shredhead]

^^This. Damn well said Sir, damn well said!

hammerreborn, on 27 November 2012 - 10:57 PM, said:

I've never used a streak in my life yet I've killed plenty of lights...strange that. It's like aiming requires skill (I get that you're an EU player but still).

And streaks work as long as you have an atlas or a friendly light with you.

It's not my aimskill that's in question here (I count myself a bit above average). The problem is the wonky hit detection and that you have to literally wash the way the Jenner may go with your lasers, bringing only slight damage on the mech that way. Due to lag the angle you have to take is unpredictable. I've got a pretty stable 120 -130 ms, add to that the ping of the enemy. You just can't reliably hit. I had no problems killing fast lights back in closed beta without SSRMs, and without them being tripped. Today it's a team effort, even though running a dedicated light hunter Hunchback.
It's a nobrainer to see what this will evolve into...

Edited by Shredhead, 27 November 2012 - 11:53 PM.

[Qarnage]

Tuhalu has a fairly good complete point.

[GalaxyBluestar]

first off i see all the lag shielding light mechers whinging back at the streak cats. first off stop it both of you! you both exploit game flaws so no one is innocent so shuffle your broken glass houses away.

secondly the ecm sounds like its acting as it was originally intended, but it will have to change if it renders missles useless. just look at the last month or so. bad networking and hit boxes on jenners and lagshielding with no accountability damage for constantly running into structure's at 50kph + for light mechs and cicada in generall; we get the majority of pilots using those mechs. everyone is up in arms and trying desperately to find away of being able to beat them one on one. enter the streak cat and by jove it's effective on many occasions. everyone's up in arms saying its the new menace. now we have ecm mechs, so everyone's going to pilot them and you will find missle based mechs becoming extinct. everyone's up in arms! this game goes from strength to strength doesn't it?

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 28 November 2012 - 12:06 AM.

[Quad Ace]

So i can get in close with a scout and negate the enemy ECM? What's the issue?

[verybad]

Really think there aught to be a Dragon that can carry it.

[Tuku]

Gauss cats ....a sure counter to ECM is a guass cat with good aim....headshot...boom....let the rain come.

[Terick]

Khobai, on 27 November 2012 - 06:07 PM, said:

Which is completely counter-intuitive. Needing a mech with ECM to counter another mech with ECM just means theres no point in ever running a variant that doesnt have ECM.



No your counter-argument just makes it appear like you have absolutely no clue what youre talking about. ECM prevents all targetting beyond 200m. LRMs cannot do damage under 180m. So LRMs are rendered completely useless by ECM. That is not overreacting, that is a fact. LRMs will not be useable at all unless ECM is nerfed.

If their ECM is countered, you can target them.

Not all mechs can carry it. Yes the lights, one medium and one AS7 can... but that doenst' mean the Catas, CPLTs, HBKs, CN9s, etc will always be protected. Premades will probably have one AS7 with ECM and a scout with ECM. Scout switches to counter moves up and helps rain ont eh other team. The AS7 stays with the brawlers/LRM team and protects them.

The fact it can be countered and not every mech can carry it is going to leave a lot fo room. The ones that are goign to feel it are the STREAK boats that have had it to easy to kill other mechs. Really, jumping up and raining SRMs down on heads because of a lock... really lame.

I still say Jenners shouldn't have it.

[Streeter]

Im still failing to understand this, you only cant lock if you are disrupted. if you can see the ECM mech or can spot the ECM mech out side the ECMs disruptive range (180m) you can still lock and shoot it cant you?

for streaks its a huge nerf though as disruptive range is only 100 meters shorter than the max range of streaks.

have I got this wrong?

I reckon we will have to play and see just how effective it is, these threads make it sound like that is the end of any missile lock EVER.

[GalaxyBluestar]

no it's any mech in a field of the ecm can't be targeted so the whole team gathers in a 180 circle and unless a counter can penetrate {who will be obliterated in seconds} no missle locks can be achieved. see how much damage to balance of play that's going to cause? auto cannons and lasers will reign. people will be forced to use an ecm if any missle will be used, i mean the way people have naturally reacted to " this is a dud weapon better get the best new overpowered one instead", the fights are going to be more narrow minded and onesided more than ever. this is going to do more harm than good.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 28 November 2012 - 02:18 AM.

[Streeter]

GalaxyBluestar, on 28 November 2012 - 02:17 AM, said:

no it's any mech in a field of the ecm can't be targeted so the whole team gathers in a 180 circle and unless a counter can penetrate {who will be obliterated in seconds} no missle locks can be achieved. see how much damage to balance of play that's going to cause? auto cannons and lasers will reign. people will be forced to use an ecm if any missle will be used, i mean the way people have naturally reacted to " this is a dud weapon better get the best new overpowered one instead", the fights are going to be more narrow minded and onesided more than ever. this is going to do more harm than good.

Ive played a few games now, and if you can get the pugs to do something that co-ordinated you deserve a medal. I reckon we will need to see how it plays out.

[Ewigan]

My Com-2D will soooo get that ^^