134 replies to this topic

[Teirdome]

I don't have the RVN-3L, but is ECM already in-game for that Raven chassis? I see it available for the head of my JR7-D and CDA-3M, but with only 1 slot available, it cannot be equipped.

[Khobai]

Raven is the only 35 ton mech that should be able to use ECM

[Redmond Spiderhammer]

ShadowVFX, on 27 November 2012 - 04:58 PM, said:

I'm "ok" with most of that. But the fact that BAP doesn't negate ANY of it, or even help in the slightest bit, peeves me. I understand ECM screwing with a stock mech, but running BAP should at the very least help reduce some of these affects.

I agree with this, I'm not sure about negating ECM effects, but perhaps mitigating them for the BAP equipped mech only as far as targeting and sensing (not communication with teammates or sharing targeting data)

[Khobai]

ECM should reduce detection range to 640m (not the absurd 200m it is now). And if you have BAP it shouldnt reduce detection range at all. So effectively ECM and BAP would cancel out.

[Tuhalu]

Yeah, a few things that seem really overpowered there. I'm talking about the "hidden" effect and the "immune to missile lock" effect. I believe those will be nerfed once they realise how huge an effect that has on gameplay.

If the "nerf" their plans to the following, ECM will still be very powerful.

When a target is covered by friendly ECM, the only benefits should be:

• It takes half again as long to achieve a missile lock against the Mech.
  
• Narc beacons will stick to 'Mechs affected by friendly ECM, but won’t provide any bonuses until the Mech leaves the ECM’s range.
  
• Artemis IV does not provide any bonuses against mechs affected by friendly ECM, but starts working again the moment the target loses the effect.

When your mech is disrupted by enemy ECM, it should be:

• You will not know where your teammates are, and they won’t know where you are, unless you have direct line of sight to each other.
  
• You cannot share any targeting data with the rest of your team, and vice versa.
  
• Your Beagle Active Probe ceases to function.
  
• It takes twice as long to get a missile lock against any Mech.
  
• Your TAG laser can still fire but provides no bonuses.
  
• Your battlegrid and targeting information will flicker.

[Kaijin]

Redmond Spiderhammer, on 27 November 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

Or you could replace your Streaks with regular SRMs of the same weight and get the same approximate damage per ton as streaks 'should' be doing anyway. Though I bet many will be sad not to be able to exploit the horrifically bad imbalance that streaks have been offering.

That would defeat the purpose of the build, which is to be able to fire one's LRMs in peace without being chewed to pieces by the Jenner God. You want to talk about horrifically bad imbalance - start with that particular 35 tons of death. Every mech has to be examined when being designed, and the question asked, "But can I fight a Jenner with it?" It's insane. But clearly, the Jenner is sombody's favorite mech at PGI and so it will never be nerfed. And whatdoyouknow - coming soon...Jenners with ECM!

Edited by Kaijin, 27 November 2012 - 05:21 PM.

[Kobold]

In all my previous complaining, I forgot to include the reduced lock on range. So yeah, for the guys who can equip ECM, you're nearly immune to missile fire unless you get tagged (in which case, you need to just get within 180m of the guy tagging you, to negate his TAG)

[T a z z]

Fate 6, on 27 November 2012 - 04:36 PM, said:

I bought the A1 to actually build a balanced missile mech with LRMs and streaks. I upgraded it with a lot of tech to make it possible. I regret everything. ECM on Jenners will be in every game, and it will literally make that mech a meatshield. Who needs to shoot my ears off when they can't do anything anymore?

/sigh I'm in the exact same situation... I had already purchased a C1 and K2. Then to master the catapults, I bought an A1 hoping to build a stable balanced LRM mech with SSRMs for anti-light / short range defense. None of my other mechs were dependent upon missiles to be viable, so something different sounded great. Now, all A1's are labeled as boats and ECM will destroy anything short of a basic SRM boat for this mech. With netcode in it's current state (nothing against the programmers, I get it takes time to fix stuff), this mech will become a meatshield.

[Kinilan]

Suddenly LRM boats aren't the backbone of the team. How is this a bad thing? eCM is going to shake up game play fir the better. A few points to consider.

TAG beats ECM at range,

Slow mechs will still be easy targets for dumb fired.

ECM is going to force more balanced builds by reducing (not negating) the effectiveness LRM and SSRM boats.

When knockdowns go back in only good pilots will be effective at using their ECM.

Counter effects allied ECM as well. It won't give you a perfect circle of protection.

Focus fire and smart targeting > any build.

[Khobai]

Theyre going to have to fix the two things that make ECM overpowered

1) reducing detection range to 200m (completely gimps LRMs)
2) prevents lockon within ~200m (completely gimps SSRMs)

Quote

Suddenly LRM boats aren't the backbone of the team. How is this a bad thing? eCM is going to shake up game play fir the better. A few points to consider.

ECM doesnt just reduce the effectiveness of LRMs. It completely removes them from the game as an option. Because mechs shielded by ECM cant be detected beyond 200m and ECM also prevents enemy scouts within ~200m from sharing sensor data with enemy missile boats. So LRMs cannot be used against any mech protected by ECM.

1) LRMs arnt the backbone of any team anymore. LRMs were nerfed HARD.
2) LRMs would be completely useless if ECM was added the way it is now since LRMs could not target anything further than 200m away and their minimum range prevents them from damaging anything under 180m away.

So yeah theyre going to need to nerf ECM's anti-sensor and anti-lockon capabilities or its going to completely wreck the game.

Edited by Khobai, 27 November 2012 - 05:48 PM.

[Pale Jackal]

Kinilan, on 27 November 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

Suddenly LRM boats aren't the backbone of the team. How is this a bad thing? eCM is going to shake up game play fir the better. A few points to consider.

Did you only play MWO when Artemis was first introduced and LRM boats were severely over-powered? LRM boats, currently, are right where they should be. Useful, but not dominating.

I'm glad ECM is going to be potent, but I'd rather they put it on the weaker variants in the game, which isn't the Jenner D.

[Kinilan]

Khobai, on 27 November 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

ECM doesnt just reduce the effectiveness of LRMs. It removes them from the game as an option entirely.

1) LRMs arnt the backbone of the team anymore. LRMs were nerfed HARD.
2) LRMs would be completely useless if ECM was added the way it is now since LRMs could not target anything further than 200m away and their minimum range prevents them from damaging anything under 180m away.

10% damage reduction wasn't a "hard" nerf.

TAG will still work outside the bubble. You can still dumb-fire. Not every mech is going to be cloaked the whole time. You don't HAVE to boat LRMs and ECM beats ECM.

They will be less useful. They will not be useless. Don't overreact.

[Khobai]

Quote

10% damage reduction wasn't a "hard" nerf.

Uh they nerfed more than just the damage buddy. They also nerfed the trajectory. And they nerfed how tightly the missiles spread together with Artemis. It was a HUGE nerf.

[Oxford]

Khobai, on 27 November 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

1) LRMs arnt the backbone of any team anymore. LRMs were nerfed HARD.
2) LRMs would be completely useless if ECM was added the way it is now since LRMs could not target anything further than 200m away and their minimum range prevents them from damaging anything under 180m away.

[sarcasm]

There is still a 20m window where you can hit someone. Learn to play. I swear this forum is full of nothing but whiners.

{/sarcasm]

Edited by Oxford, 27 November 2012 - 05:52 PM.

[Khobai]

Quote

There is still a 20m window where you can hit someone. Learn to play. I swear this forum is full of nothing but whiners.

Remember lockon time is doubled too. So you have time to get off what? one salvo? maybe two?

[Kinilan]

Pale Jackal, on 27 November 2012 - 05:48 PM, said:

Did you only play MWO when Artemis was first introduced and LRM boats were severely over-powered? LRM boats, currently, are right where they should be. Useful, but not dominating.

I'm glad ECM is going to be potent, but I'd rather they put it on the weaker variants in the game, which isn't the Jenner D.

I've been around since CB. Was lucky enough to get in sans Founders. The mech options had me scratching my head at first but they are all very popular except maybe the CDA-3M which gives a good chance (not 100% of course) that both sides will have an ECM mech even if you drop solo.

Khobai, on 27 November 2012 - 05:50 PM, said:

Uh they nerfed more than just the damage buddy. They also nerfed the trajectory. And they nerfed how tightly the missiles spread together with Artemis. It was a HUGE nerf.

Flight paths were reset, not nerfed. They went back to normal from being orbital strikes. Artemis in itself was a boost to the efficacy of LRMs which were already THE staple weapon system before Artemis was even put in. Just because Artemis was tweaked doesn't mean LRMs as a whole were nerfed.

Like I said, don't over react. It makes your argument come off as juvenile and not worth consideration by anyone, including the development team.

[hammerreborn]

Khobai, on 27 November 2012 - 05:34 PM, said:

Theyre going to have to fix the two things that make ECM overpowered

1) reducing detection range to 200m (completely gimps LRMs)
2) prevents lockon within ~200m (completely gimps SSRMs)




ECM doesnt just reduce the effectiveness of LRMs. It completely removes them from the game as an option. Because mechs shielded by ECM cant be detected beyond 200m and ECM also prevents enemy scouts within ~200m from sharing sensor data with enemy missile boats. So LRMs cannot be used against any mech protected by ECM.

1) LRMs arnt the backbone of any team anymore. LRMs were nerfed HARD.
2) LRMs would be completely useless if ECM was added the way it is now since LRMs could not target anything further than 200m away and their minimum range prevents them from damaging anything under 180m away.

So yeah theyre going to need to nerf ECM's anti-sensor and anti-lockon capabilities or its going to completely wreck the game.

I mean if only there was a way to...I don't know...I'm going to go with counter...ECMs. Perhaps by having a mech on your team with an ECM you could negate the bonuses of the other team's ECM. But that would require having a similar mech on your team. If only there was a matchmaking system that would nearly guarentee that the mechs likely to have ECMs would be paired against other mechs likely to have ECMs.

If only...


Points to consider that will be completely ignored by LOL NERF JENNERS spam that will **** all over this thread and every other one for the forseeable future.

If a Jenner is bubbling his atlases he's not moving fast, which means he'll get destroyed nearly instantly by focus fire. I mean, that's the response to EVERY SINGLE NERF STREAK THREAD EVER, but all of a sudden when it involves a Jenner we're all brainless clueless apes learning how to use our first tool.

TAGs become useful as I haven't seen anyone running them since artemis was introduced (I still do and feel worthless since everyones a fing streaker nowadays anyway).

Jump Jets need to be fixed. Now Jenners lose 2 tons of free weight they have now to decide if they really want that ECM or not.

TEAMWORK.

If we're going to have Jenner's bubbling teams, then your scouts run over to their bubble and counter, and the LRMS will fire. If their jenner runs into your team, your jenners counter to allow missles to still fire. Lights are always chasing each other, this pretty much guarentees that each light pair will negate each other unless both are running their ECMs (in active mode) like morons.

The atlas should always be in your teams brawler range, so will always be a counter to a lone harassing light with ECM. And there is little reason the atlas varient shouldn't have ECM.

[Khobai]

Quote

I mean if only there was a way to...I don't know...I'm going to go with counter...ECMs. Perhaps by having a mech on your team with an ECM you could negate the bonuses of the other team's ECM. But that would require having a similar mech on your team. If only there was a matchmaking system that would nearly guarentee that the mechs likely to have ECMs would be paired against other mechs likely to have ECMs.

Which is completely counter-intuitive. Needing a mech with ECM to counter another mech with ECM just means theres no point in ever running a variant that doesnt have ECM.

Quote

Like I said, don't over react. It makes your argument come off as juvenile and not worth consideration by anyone, including the development team.

No your counter-argument just makes it appear like you have absolutely no clue what youre talking about. ECM prevents all targetting beyond 200m. LRMs cannot do damage under 180m. So LRMs are rendered completely useless by ECM. That is not overreacting, that is a fact. LRMs will not be useable at all unless ECM is nerfed.

Edited by Khobai, 27 November 2012 - 06:12 PM.

[Oxford]

hammerreborn, on 27 November 2012 - 06:06 PM, said:

If a Jenner is bubbling his atlases he's not moving fast, which means he'll get destroyed nearly instantly by focus fire. I mean, that's the response to EVERY SINGLE NERF STREAK THREAD EVER, but all of a sudden when it involves a Jenner we're all brainless clueless apes learning how to use our first tool.

Seems to me the mech bubbling the enemy assaults would be the Atlas. The Jenner would be over doing what they do best while your teams heavies/assaults scream 'Get him off me! Get him off me!'.
Unless you have your own Atlas in the backline doing ECCM.

Certainly pushes premades even further beyond PUGs.

Just had a thought.
What if the reason for the ECM Jenner is that it is intended to be the ECM mech for Kurita? The Raven is for Liao and Davion, the Commando and Atlas are for Steiner and the Cicada is for Marik?

Edited by Oxford, 27 November 2012 - 07:03 PM.

[Hobo Dan]

All Raven variant's should have this.
and zero Jenner variant's should have this.

imo

Edited by Hobo Dan, 27 November 2012 - 07:05 PM.