134 replies to this topic

[Sprouticus]

Khobai, on 28 November 2012 - 08:35 AM, said:

No one in their right mind would try to tag ecm'd mechs for lrms that barely do any damage. The only reason lrms are half decent now is Artemis and the lack of ECM. Once ECM is added lrms are DEAD as an option.

This is factually incorrect. LRM's (w/o Artemis) hitting a tagged mech do a TREMENDOUS amount of damage. I have been both the tagger and the LRM boat in that scenario in the last week, and the damage I can inflict is huge. With the buff to 1.8, it is even better.

[Sprouticus]

A few more thoughts on ECM/ECCM

Both ECC and ECCM will be able to be used in an offensive and defensive manner. A big factor in this is that FRIENDLY ECCM counters FRIENDLY ECM. You cannot run both at the same time.


Offensive ECM (scout or harasser engages an enemy putting them under a bubble): This allow you to limit the support fire the enemy can call into play. It also allows you to negate streaks. Finally it makes tracking the course of the battle difficult. However, you are unable to counter any enemy mechs with ECM, so you end up

Defensive ECM (one or more friendly mechs under your ECM bubble): This prevents LRM and streak locks. It also hides movement.

Offensive ECCM: Turning on counter mode in a group of enemy mechs will eliminate 1 ECM, making you able to target the mech at range. This allows for streak and LRm fire and tracking of enemy movement

Defensive ECCM: This allows you to counter an ECM bubble on your mechs, allowing support LRM fire, enemy tracking and streak usage

While the offensive and defensive attributes may be similar, it is all about how you use them. This is an incredibly complex system and those who use it will wil lend up with a tremendous tactical advantage.

[Khobai]

Lrms will not do tremendous damage if you need a constant tag on the target just for the lrms to maintain their lock. Derp. What don't you people get about that? It's almost impossible to keep something tagged nonstop if you're being shot at by half their team. Lrms just aren't worth the effort. You're way better off running a brawler because all ECM does is make this game a brawl fest. I don't think people understand the implications actions of having to hold tag on a mech not only to target but also to maintain the Lrm lock and if you lose the lock it takes twice as long to regain it. It's stupid lrms might as well just be removed from the game entirely instead of perpetuating this farce of usefulness.

Edited by Khobai, 28 November 2012 - 09:15 AM.

[Roland]

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What don't you people get about that? It's almost impossible to keep something tagged nonstop if you're being shot at by half their team.

No, it's really not.

Quote

You're way better off running a brawler because all ECM does is make this game a brawl fest.

If this is the case, and you're in a brawler running ECM, then you can just counter the ECM on the mechs you are fighting with.

And then, suddenly, they can be targeted by missiles. Voila.

[Khobai]

If lrms require two mechs be to be effective they should be better than weapons that only require one mech to be effective. That's common sense and currently is not the case.

[Martini Henrie]

'Oh my god! The SKY is FALLING!' is all I'm getting from this thread. A la Double heat sinks, lets wait until they hit and see how they come out?

In more important news, has there been mention of how and where ECM is to be fitted. Yes, I know it goes in the D-DCs head but there is only one slot to do so...

I have my 1.5t spare and waiting for it

[Lusankya]

ECM will certainly be an interesting piece of equipment to try out.

[Randodan]

Why-oh-why won't the devs use the 3D displays inside the cockpit to display those ECM graphics? I mean -- don't clutter the HUD more. Use the now unused displays that are so nicely modeled into the game.

In fact, I would prefer a decluttered HUD with most of the extra stuff available on those displays inside the 3D cockpit.

[SteelPaladin]

Randodan, on 28 November 2012 - 12:09 PM, said:

Why-oh-why won't the devs use the 3D displays inside the cockpit to display those ECM graphics? I mean -- don't clutter the HUD more. Use the now unused displays that are so nicely modeled into the game.

In fact, I would prefer a decluttered HUD with most of the extra stuff available on those displays inside the 3D cockpit.

The thing is, MFDs are really only for non-critical information that you can afford to take a second or two and turn your head to check. If it is critical combat status information, it needs to be in the helmet HUD, and ECM status really does fall in that category.

I should never have to do more than flick my eye over to see if I'm being jammed, even if I have my head turned to the side because I'm arm aiming.

[Randodan]

SteelPaladin, on 28 November 2012 - 01:32 PM, said:

The thing is, MFDs are really only for non-critical information that you can afford to take a second or two and turn your head to check. If it is critical combat status information, it needs to be in the helmet HUD, and ECM status really does fall in that category.

I should never have to do more than flick my eye over to see if I'm being jammed, even if I have my head turned to the side because I'm arm aiming.

Points taken.

My idea is then to be able to utilize these MFDs with less important info, such as weapon grouping, moving map, and so on, in order to declutter the HUD. In fact, I wish they would offer the option to turn certain things off in the HUD and these items should automatically move to those MFDs. Just a thought.

[Sprouticus]

ECM removed from the Jenner. Bump the max range to 400 from 200 and I think it will be pretty amazing

[Tuhalu]

Roland, on 28 November 2012 - 09:09 AM, said:

If this is the case, and you're in a brawler running ECM, then you can just counter the ECM on the mechs you are fighting with.

And then, suddenly, they can be targeted by missiles. Voila.

When you say "brawler running ECM", the only option is the Atlas D-DC, but you can only counter the ECM from one of the mechs you are fighting with. The other enemies running their ECMs in disrupt mode are not countered. Also you are slow and stand out on the battlefield and will be focus fired as a priority. When you are dead, your counter ECM stops working.

[Tuhalu]

The Devs are talking about TAG being the "rock" to ECMs scissors. ECM is swiss army knife, library AND avalanche, depending on how you use it. Yes, TAG is rock, but only against a single target. This is not good balance.

ECM requires no effort to keep on and work to prevent you AND any nearby friends from getting targetted at any range over 200m. This is MANY scissors.

TAG rocks require you to keep the target painted and be withing 450m, but outside 180m. Your TAG is a weak rock that cancel the scissors affecting that single mech, but does nothing more. It hasn't been explicitly stated, but it seems to be implied that TAG simply cancels the "friendly disrupt" effect on a targetted mech, but without adding the "TAG" debuff.

WIthin 180m, the ECM Scissors are also a strong Paper because they cancel your TAG system without losing any effect themself. This is many strong papers because you defeat all TAG within your radius without losing any effect.

But then you can use ECM in rock mode yourself, which requires you to close within 180m of the targetted mech. But if you bring an enemy ECM mech into it's bubble, it counters ALL of that mechs scissors at once, so it's a strong rock.

[GalaxyBluestar]

yeah this is turning into a great big mess isn't it? lrm's are good when you can get lock on's which are hard when redlights blink on and off every second you pretty much have to be out in the open and the enemy has to as well unless scouts are nearby in order for lock on's too last. every implementation hasn't just given equipement like tag and scouts a greater roll, it's gone to the extreme! this stuff should be optional not essential but the game mechanics are screwing it more and more. equipment such as tag and artemis were only supposed to improve effeciency not be an absolute essential for using missles. so lrm boats are only good when the radar goes all their way which is very rare, forcing us to take more equipment and now this ecm will screw it being introduced at exactly the worst time when we have a few dominant mechs already making battlefields a onesided affair. honestly who's going to be sucker enough to run a mech dependant on teammates? especially when they scamper off and get killed. every weapon should be useable independantly or the exploitors {now coming in at 85% of MWO players} will simply discard them and enjoy the few that work on all occasions.

people are already joking that they're playing jenner warrior and raven pilots are staying in hangers for every crazy weapon another 5 get's a redundancy, i fear thanks to greedy exploitors not giving a damn about balanced game play and just wanting a win the devs are encouraged to make more stupid additions which leads to more polarising, which leads to more phenominon like the streak cat emerging to fight back at the bug imbalancing. it's a never ending spiral of getting bigger guns and making everything else trash! this is driffitng further and further away from being mech warrior than in any other MW tittle i've played.

bye bye ppc you iconic weapon, no one gave a damn about the power punch and hit detection you deserve, good bye lrm's the catapults, summoner/thor and timberwolf/madcats that screamed "mech warrior is awesome!" will join the doll que for uncompetative mechs. say hello to tag and ecm warrior the game that plays like paintball except with lasers and big walking things with unbreakable legs of impunity, and microsoft started this poor simulation of taking away the leg distruction damn them.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 28 November 2012 - 05:21 PM.

[jajsamurai]

I personally have been saving up to run a missile spotter light mech.
I realize most people run a jenner to be a lag shielded harbinger of death, however i want him for the laser hardpoints so I can put a tag laser on him. I also want the speed and jets.

I want BAP and tag laser
I would also like a Narc if I can fit it in. Now it sounds like this won't be practical unless ECM is nerfed.

The point is that if I can't run a missile spotter because there are no more missile boats then that sucks.
I like playing a role that requires coordination with the team. Even if I don't get all the kills I think its challenging and fun.

I will repeat what I've said before. TAG is a passive system. Modern real life laser designaters shine a light on the target, and the shooter or guided missile can see that specific wavelength of light reflecting off of the target, and thus homes in on it.
This is exactly how heat seeking missiles work, except that instead of seeking heat, it seeks a specific wavelenght of light. That wavelength is provided by a TAG laser.

The tag effect should be unaffected by the tag equiped mech being inside 180M or not.
Does Light stop traveling in my vicinity because I have a fancy piece of equipment?
That doesn't sound even close to realistic.

I believe the reasoning is that since a mech under the disruptive ECM effect can't communicate targetting data to his allies then he can't send the TAG data to his missile boats unless he is more than 180M away from the ECM and therefore not being disrupted. This argument is garbage as it completely ignores the nature of a TAG laser, both in the game and in real life. The targeting info was never sent by the tag equiped mech to the missile boat. It was always detected "visually" and requires no comunication between the two mechs. Visual detection is not the best description since the wavelengths of light used in a TAG laser are generally not in the spectrum visible to humans, but you get the idea.

Make TAG work regardless of where the TAG equiped mech is and my missile spotter mech becomes viable again.
I will be happy as long as missile boats don't completely dissappear from the game.