196 replies to this topic

[Threat Doc]

Jayboltz, on 10 May 2012 - 06:40 AM, said:

Uh, yeah the m4 has a maximum effective range for area targets of 600 meters. So clearly you're the one who doesn't understand maximum effective range.. The only reason I even commented to begin with was because you stated your false information like everyone is retarded for not knowing that...even though its false...

Anyway if you want to argue with me do it via PMs, I don't want to derail the thread.

Well, you're apparently the only one that took offense. I didn't state it like everyone was retarded, and only you took it that way. As for derailing the thread, I was trying to have a good conversation and see where it went and, thus far, you're the only one derailing the thread. I'm out, anyway, and I was out yesterday later afternoon, until you quoted me. Have a nice day, and consider what you think of yourself if you thought I was talking down to anyone, and you're the only one who took offense.

Also, I'm not going to get into an argument about rifling, shell loads, round weights, trajectory drift and projectile shift, because you've shown yourself to be woefully under informed.

Good day.

[Ursus_Spiritus]

interesting twist of conversation..



But for those that are not familiar with how Table Top mechanics works.

I would suggesting getting into the Free For All arean of Neveron - a online version of battle tech that is turn based (60-120sec) where you have to plot your moves, consider range, terrain, your enemies movement, your heat, your skill level.

Then once you can wrap your brain around that, condense all of that time into the 10seconds of game time in MW2-4, and soon to be MWO.

I say this not out of sarcasm. But for the arguing here over "realism" it seems some are losing the point that the ranges and mechanics of the game are designed to be efficient (as it can be given the complexity of the game) small, fast and decisive fights.

unlike MW4 that was a lot of long range jump snipers, or AC2/gauss/lrm boats.

Once one gets a grasp of the TT and lets go the "reality" of our world. One should be able to play the game for the fun factor, not argue over physics, mechanics and technicalities.

This is futuristic Sci-fi, based yes someone what on our reality, but still sci-fiction non the less.


<Puts on Officer's cap>
Now quit arguing like a bunch of school girls, get in your ****ing cockpits and FIGHT!

Then meet at the local Tavern/Inn of your respective planet/station assignment for Beer, Women and hot CHOW!!

/Salute

DISMISSED!

Edited by 8100d 5p4tt3r, 10 May 2012 - 08:44 AM.

[Fameth Sathronaveth]

Christopher Dayson, on 09 May 2012 - 02:33 PM, said:

Well looking at the mechlab we have off amounts of ammo per ton, and off amounts of armor so far. Or at least, according to those screen shots of the mechlab.

I imagine they're still tweaking things to try and make it for a more enjoyable experience all around. The problem is they're already tweaking with damage per 10 seconds, or at least the effect of that damage per ten seconds by changing the armor rates.

For example: Mech A in the TT has 8 points of armor in a given location. Normally a PPC hit to this location would erase the armor and do internal damage. If that mech has 16 points of armor there instead of 8, for the same tonnage, then all weapons were just reduced in damage by 50% effectively.

This change, while seemingly neutral because it affects all weapons equally (Since it's really an armor change) throws balance in the favor of small fast mechs over larger ones. If I can pilot a 40 ton mech (Lets go with a Cicada stock from 3025 TRO) that had 11 points of center torso armor, that becomes 22, it had 4 points of arm armor, it becomes 8, legs go from 6 to 12. All of the sudden the 'kill zone' of long range weapons becomes even less deadly.

I can spring across the battle field at my 120 kph sprint, take a double volley of LRM-15's without any real risk of serious damage because missiles scatter and my armor can absorb it. I then get into close range combat much more intact than I would have been otherwise. If I would have made it at all.

Ok so then the obvious answer becomes: Let the weapons fire twice as fast as they should otherwise, so have a 5 second fire rate instead of 10. Except that then it's really to late, the light mech is in the minimum range of the bigger weapons and rendering them mostly useless.

In the end, for all they were saying they wanted to use TT rules, we know they aren't, or at least haven't in the past. Until we know where armor per ton, ammo per ton, heat and damage end up we can't really say wether any given range is to long, to short, or just right.

All I can say is given what we've seen, there's a lot less risk for the light mechs than there should be, a lot less. Not sure I agree with that.

I think that the bulk of this facet of the discussion rests in the premise that weapons will still do the same amount of damage [that damage points for a weapon are the same as armor points]. The devs may have simply [in this example] doubled the armor points but halved the value each of those armor points represents. Thus even though it appears that a very significant change was made, gameplay is exactly the same, and the player just has a bit more options as far as armor tonnage and placement.

If however this is not the case and it is as you fear... I would push for higher damaging weapons and leave the fire rate as it is. But I agree that it would be something to worry a lot about.

[Deathz Jester]

I think that what this comes down to is not everyone is going to agree with the ranges. Myself never having played tabletop (with the exception of Dark Age, ) my knowledge of ranges comes from my uncle who plays battletech TT, books, and the video games. Honestly I think MW4 ruined the mindset of mechwarrior players, brainwashing them into thinking MOAR RANGE=BETTUR. While yes MW4 had LRMs at I believe 1000 meters was it? please correct me if I'm wrong on these ranges. Having played with the Mektek pack, which added a wide variety of weapons and mechs, I still wasn't very pleased, seeing as they didn't modify weapon ranges. I figured, "why would i bother with SRMs, when LRMS can fire at any range and do more damage".

Half the time it wasn't even fun seeing one of my lancemates piloting a Longbow with nothing but Thunder LRMs shredding people we got close enough to see the insignia on the mech.

I think the decreased ranges will add to the immersion of the game, and require more thinking on the part of the player. instead of "LULZ I HAVE MOAR GAUSS RIFLEZ DEN YOU AN MOAR LRMS!"


I for one will be interested in seeing how this turns out.


If the ranges went back to the MW4 style, then alot of these mechs would be useless, and we'd see nothing but people running around getting missile locks on eachother seeing who can land the most missile hits.

[Ursus_Spiritus]

The appeal for me, personally is that Battletech can be a very tactical game.
Unless you want to be foolish and care little for your mech.

You want your mech to stay up as long as possible so you have to do all of the following:

Move!
Manage heat
Plan ahead 3 moves (Tactics)
Manage your ammo (if ballistic)
Not let your opponent out manuever you (Tactics)
Keep your mech alive (longer you fight, more effective and ideally better chance to win/complete mission)
Bragging rights for lucky shots (have to boast the ego) "I kid"
You want to use your movement, you want to close range or get out of LOS.
You want to make yourself harder to hit and easier to hit your opponent.

So you have to use your advantages and disadvantages cautiously.
Being Range over Speed or Agility over Armor.

Unlike many of the FPS games out there.
You want to stay alive you want to play smart. "Life is cheap Mechs are expensive"

Those I feel as essential to being a mech pilot.
As long as PGI can give me that, as it is in the table top. Then all is good in my book.
Either at 90m or at 640m

At closer ranges though you can see me smile as I bury my mechs foot into your mechs chest and my cockpit is underlined by:
"Have a nice day"

MUHAHAHA!


What ever the range limitations for weapons. Learn them, use them wisely.

That will set you apart from the rest of the whelps pining for a quick kill.

Edited by 8100d 5p4tt3r, 10 May 2012 - 03:39 PM.

[Vollstrecker]

warner__, on 10 May 2012 - 01:01 AM, said:

Yes, so, the speed of the mechs is just as important as ranges in balancing it, is what you're saying. I see that, and it's clearly possibly that the speed/range balance is going to be fine. Possibly, objections to a 640m range for LRMs are based on MW4 speeds.

Definitely. Add that to the fact that from the terrain we've seen in the videos/screenshots (and stated intention of the Devs) is that terrain is going to be considerably more important. Basically, you're only going to be having extreme range snipefests if both you and your opponent wish it that way. For those of us who like forcing the snipers out of their comfort zone, this is going to be like the Renaissance.

[Yeach]

warner__, on 10 May 2012 - 01:06 AM, said:

I see the conversion you've gone through, but, as someone who knows TT rules, can you explain to someone who doesn't (me) what it is about the speed/range balance that is good in TT? Do I need to play some TT/MegaMek to get it?

No idea, I don't play TT either.
I only stats and thats it.

[Garth Erlam]

Not only is speed an issue, but the maps are designed so that jumpjet 'Mechs move faster in every direction - IE, they avoid hills entirely. So while that Hunchback is lumbering towards you, you're JJing from hill to hill - where he can't hit you, but you can hit him. The amount of pain you can pump out with even two LRM 15's is quite substantial. Say only 2/3rds of your missiles hit - that's two PPC's worth of damage per salvo every salvo. And you're not even in line of sight with them!

[Yeach]

Garth Erlam, on 10 May 2012 - 06:57 PM, said:

Not only is speed an issue, but the maps are designed so that jumpjet 'Mechs move faster in every direction - IE, they avoid hills entirely. So while that Hunchback is lumbering towards you, you're JJing from hill to hill - where he can't hit you, but you can hit him. The amount of pain you can pump out with even two LRM 15's is quite substantial. Say only 2/3rds of your missiles hit - that's two PPC's worth of damage per salvo every salvo. And you're not even in line of sight with them!

Sounds like the Catapult is OP!!!!

[Vollstrecker]

Garth Erlam, on 10 May 2012 - 06:57 PM, said:

Not only is speed an issue, but the maps are designed so that jumpjet 'Mechs move faster in every direction - IE, they avoid hills entirely. So while that Hunchback is lumbering towards you, you're JJing from hill to hill - where he can't hit you, but you can hit him. The amount of pain you can pump out with even two LRM 15's is quite substantial. Say only 2/3rds of your missiles hit - that's two PPC's worth of damage per salvo every salvo. And you're not even in line of sight with them!

Exactly! Extending their range only serves to detract from other roles' ability to succeed on the battlefield.

[Aegis Kleais]

Garth Erlam, on 10 May 2012 - 06:57 PM, said:

Not only is speed an issue, but the maps are designed so that jumpjet 'Mechs move faster in every direction - IE, they avoid hills entirely. So while that Hunchback is lumbering towards you, you're JJing from hill to hill - where he can't hit you, but you can hit him. The amount of pain you can pump out with even two LRM 15's is quite substantial. Say only 2/3rds of your missiles hit - that's two PPC's worth of damage per salvo every salvo. And you're not even in line of sight with them!

Really?

So far, every time I've seen a jumpjet in use in footage, they look like they're not moving any faster than if they would have been on ground. I was hoping JJ's would give the Mech a "faster than if I were running" boost in speed, but then take some time for them to refuel. JJ's seem to refuel in a mere 5 seconds.

[Garth Erlam]

Aegis Kleais™, on 10 May 2012 - 07:04 PM, said:

Really?

So far, every time I've seen a jumpjet in use in footage, they look like they're not moving any faster than if they would have been on ground. I was hoping JJ's would give the Mech a "faster than if I were running" boost in speed, but then take some time for them to refuel. JJ's seem to refuel in a mere 5 seconds.

I meant laterally, IE. it is faster to JJ over a hill than walk around it.

[Insidious Johnson]

Aegis Kleais™, on 10 May 2012 - 07:04 PM, said:

Really?

So far, every time I've seen a jumpjet in use in footage, they look like they're not moving any faster than if they would have been on ground. I was hoping JJ's would give the Mech a "faster than if I were running" boost in speed, but then take some time for them to refuel. JJ's seem to refuel in a mere 5 seconds.

Also, take into account the pilots investment in those videos . No one is trying to win a Planetary match for Terra. its a few devs going pew,pew,pew and making videos to demonstrate a LIMITED set of features, not every feature available to keep you breathing while your heart is about to pound its way out of your chest.

[Deathz Jester]

Garth Erlam, on 10 May 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

I meant laterally, IE. it is faster to JJ over a hill than walk around it.

Can we go Through the hill?

[Pvt Dancer]

Iron Harlequin, on 11 May 2012 - 01:50 AM, said:

Can we go Through the hill?

Well, apparently in that map you can as there is a tunnel.

[Wolf Hreda]

Fresh_Meat, on 08 May 2012 - 12:03 AM, said:

We will be seeing allot of knife fights. They are in my opinion making a mistake by limiting LRMs to 640m. You cant fire them within 200m so you have a weapon only effective from 200-640m and is partially dependent on scouts to function well. Why would anyone want a mech so specialized and vulnerable? The scout/support roles should serve to keep the battlefield dynamic and interesting. However I feel that the system is so under powered by the range deficit that we will only have direct fire shootouts, and with the extreme landscapes they have designed mostly short ranged weapons.

I realize that the range come directly from TT. However, the range of LRMs has always been greater in Mechwarrior games, around 1000m. Does this not seem too literal a translation, should the range be extended to foster more effective spotting for scouts?

The angle of LRM approach could be adjusted to control for excessive boating from range. For example in the video the missiles hit the taget from above, I suggest that at longer range the missile begin a more horizontal approach thereby giving the target a better chance to avoid getting hit by placing more objects in the flight path. This way support mechs would be compelled not to hide as their combat effectiveness would suffer.

I believe the way this whole thing will be handled will reflect the canon at large. We're entering the Inner Sphere essentially on the eve of the Clan invasion. Once the Clans invade, Inner Sphere tech starts improving considerably, due to research on salvaged parts from the multitude of battlefields. Once that gets underway, I believe we should start seeing increases in our weaponry capability.

Now, on a much more speculative note, I think it would be amazing if they included the triple strength myomer as part of the mech lab. Wouldn't it be great to fire a few lasers then increase your max speed by several kmh? The glorious infighting brawls... And, if the devs do eventually include melee combat proper, oh the joy of dishing out the one punishment the Clanners can't...

[Aegis Kleais]

Garth Erlam, on 10 May 2012 - 07:05 PM, said:

I meant laterally, IE. it is faster to JJ over a hill than walk around it.

Insidious Johnson, on 10 May 2012 - 07:25 PM, said:

Also, take into account the pilots investment in those videos . No one is trying to win a Planetary match for Terra. its a few devs going pew,pew,pew and making videos to demonstrate a LIMITED set of features, not every feature available to keep you breathing while your heart is about to pound its way out of your chest.

In short, the JJ's are moreso only useful for transversing terrain vertically (or to help get around it) than it is to be used to help boost one's forward distance in a short amount of time. Got it.