106 replies to this topic

[Zakatak]

Just an interesting comparison I thought of today, that I thought seemed fair and balanced. Between the Star League Defense Force and the Covenant Empire, who would win if the Covenant were to invade?

Rather then compare them to the Covenant directly, I think it would be better to look at SLDF vs. UNSC first. The UNSC lost 60% of the human population to the Covenant, and only started winning after the Sangheili broke off from the Covenant.

Population Advantage: SLDF
Naval Advantage: UNSC
Groundside Advantage: SLDF
FTL Advantage: UNSC
Territory Advantage: SLDF
Stability Advantage: Neither

- 2 trillion vs. 40 billion is a pretty freakin' easy win.
- The McKenna's NAC/40 do 1000 gigajoules each at best, while a MAC Cannon is over 300 times the power. Also, BTech ships cannot go into the atmosphere and can accelerate 3g's at best.
-The UNSC still use gas-operated rifles and simplistic vehicles. The SLDF has entire companies of battlemechs, while the UNSC's main battle tank has a single AC/5 and MG at best.
-While SLDF can cross 1000 light years faster then the UNSC can, stopping a week to charge the drive is a serious disadvantage. The UNSC ships can just keep going and going and going.
- 2100 worlds vs. 700 worlds (which are mostly sparsely populated) is another easy win.
- The UNSC has big Insurrectionist problems with outer colonies, and the Star League still has relatively minor infighting among the Houses.

The problem is that unless BTech has something the Covies want, they are just going to wipe them out from space. 300 McKenna's isn't enough to protect 2100 worlds from genocide. I vote Covies.

Edited by Zakatak, 08 May 2012 - 07:31 PM.

[Kooroush Azartash]

Resources are the primary reason for invasion. I could see them wanting control of the ground. The SLDF may be be able to win a war of attrition from the land.

[Pheonixwolf]

just for referance Dropships can go intra-atmosphere, just the jumpships can't which is another factor you didn't have listed above, take out the under armed/armoured jumpships and dropships are screwed, and i am curious where you got the NAC producing 800 gigajoules and a MAC producing 300 times that, and are you going by a smaller MAC or something more akin to the kind mounted in the orbital defense stations (ex. Halo 2). though i think the covenant has the edge due to their shields and plasma weapons, as for mechs, UNSC won on the ground more often than not and it still doesn't count for diddly when planets are glassed.

[Oswin Aurelius]

The SLDF has the major advantage over the Covenant in ground forces, but not naval forces. In a ground battle, it would be a bloodbath for the Covenant, but seeing as they like to hang around in orbit and glass everything, I'd say the SLDF is at a SERIOUS disadvantage there.

In terms of just weaponry, SLDF still has the advantage. Laser weapons and PPCs will **** up their shields in a heartbeat (seeing as these aren't puny infantry-based weapons, but meant for taking out massive walking tanks with several tons of armor), and even when it comes to ballistic weapons, I doubt those shields would hold up too well against large caliber Autocannons and swarms of missiles. Near future humans put up a decent fight against them, they don't stand a chance against the sheer scale of weaponry the Inner Sphere has been perfecting for centuries.

[Ilithi Dragon]

Covenant, definitely. The Covenant have absolutely ****-poor engineering - they only get a fraction of what they potentially could get out of their tech because they have almost no real idea how it actually works and their culture forbids any real fiddling with the tech - but their base tech is way ahead of the SLDF, even the latest Clan tech, it's not even funny. Now, the SLDF could put up a serious fight on the ground, and could probably hold their own against the Covenant quite handily, at the very least, but they would get raped in space, and with ships in orbit, unless there was something the Covenant really didn't want turned into molten slag on the ground, the SLDF forces would be annihilated.

Now, there is a remote chance that the SLDF could capture and reverse-engineer some Covenant tech, since it would take the Covenant a while to wipe out all of the Inner Sphere, giving them a small window to capture and reverse engineer tech and put it into production, but it's a pretty damn remote chance. Ninety-nine times out of one hundred, Covenant wins hands down.

[Oswin Aurelius]

Oh, you better believe the Star League would have reverse-engineered Covenant tech faster than you can say "The First Lord is dead." That's what the Star League was all about, keeping the peace and creating new technologies. They had the brightest minds working on some really out there tech, and I don't think it would have taken them much time at all to copy Covie tech if the UNSC managed to do it, too.

[Zakatak]

Oswin Aurelius, on 08 May 2012 - 07:19 PM, said:

Oh, you better believe the Star League would have reverse-engineered Covenant tech faster than you can say "The First Lord is dead." That's what the Star League was all about, keeping the peace and creating new technologies. They had the brightest minds working on some really out there tech, and I don't think it would have taken them much time at all to copy Covie tech if the UNSC managed to do it, too.

That is a good point.

The UNSC, aside from AI and spacefaring technology, doesn't really seem big on advancement. The 7.62mm may have become the standard issue round for carbines, but the fact is that they still use the 7.62mm nearly 600 years after it was made. With the exception of a the Prowler-class corvette and the Spartan Laser, they don't use energy or plasma weapons either, relying almost entirely on slug throwers. That said, there AI technology is incredible, since they basically are holographic copies of human minds but millions of times more intelligent. Also, NOVA Bombs? 2 Petaton yield? Scary.

But on the other hand, we have the Star League who has over a hundred times the scientists that the UNSC does, and unlike them, they have experience with plasma and laser based weaponry. The only ship the UNSC that was equal to their Covy counterparts was the Infinity, and that was finished AFTER the war was over! With 2100 worlds to find, recon, and glass, the Star League has probably 50 years minimum to reverse engineer Covenant technology. They could start pumping out McKenna's with antimatter bombs and energy shields by the time the Covenant is only halfway into their genocide.

I'm starting to lean toward the SLDF now. That is an excellent point, Oswinner.

[Ilithi Dragon]

Fair enough. Though, would they be able to do it before the Covenant wiped out enough infrastructure to render their ability to field reverse-engineered tech a moot point? The UNSC systems were less inter-connected, and with the Cole Protocol initiated, the Covenant would have had a difficult time picking UNSC-occupied systems out of the general star field, especially the more significant/more developed UNSC systems. The Star League would not have anywhere near such an advantage - keeping map data out of Covenant hands would be difficult for the Star League, and with that data they would be able to target major industrial and economic centers. It would still take time, but reverse-engineering tech, and especially fielding it in any significant number, would take time, as well.

[Paladin1]

Zakatak, on 08 May 2012 - 06:31 PM, said:

Just an interesting comparison I thought of today, that I thought seemed fair and balanced. Between the Star League Defense Force and the Covenant Empire, who would win if the Covenant were to invade?

Rather then compare them to the Covenant directly, I think it would be better to look at SLDF vs. UNSC first. The UNSC lost 60% of the human population to the Covenant, and only started winning after the Sangheili broke off from the Covenant.

Population Advantage: SLDF
Naval Advantage: UNSC
Groundside Advantage: SLDF
FTL Advantage: UNSC
Territory Advantage: SLDF
Stability Advantage: Neither

- 2 trillion vs. 40 billion is a pretty freakin' easy win.
- The McKenna's NAC/40 do 800 gigajoules each at best, while a MAC Cannon is over 300 times the power. Also, BTech ships cannot go into the atmosphere and can accelerate 3g's at best.
-The UNSC still use gas-operated rifles and simplistic vehicles. The SLDF has entire companies of battlemechs, while the UNSC's main battle tank has a single AC/5 and MG at best.
-While SLDF can cross 1000 light years faster then the UNSC can, stopping a week to charge the drive is a serious disadvantage. The UNSC ships can just keep going and going and going.
- 2100 worlds vs. 700 worlds (which are mostly sparsely populated) is another easy win.
- The UNSC has big Insurrectionist problems with outer colonies, and the Star League still has relatively minor infighting among the Houses.

The problem is that unless BTech has something the Covies want, they are just going to wipe them out from space. 300 McKenna's isn't enough to protect 2100 worlds from genocide. I vote Covies.

I'll admit that I'm not up on the technology of the Halo universe, but I have to wonder if you're giving the Covenant a little more credit here than what they're due. The primary reason that I wonder that is that you don't deal with the armor of the SLDF ships and, frankly, you're off on the firepower calculations too. From what I can remember, the 800 gigajoules figure came from the standard Large Laser, not the NAC-40. Now, I don't know about the Covenant data but just the BT data that I've seen so far is fouled up as is your understanding of the BTUniverse it would seem.

I really would like to compare the two universes, but I doubt that it can be done with the info we have available.

Edited by Paladin1, 08 May 2012 - 07:39 PM.

[Belial]

I wonder though, if we consider the scenario of the Covie tech getting reverse-engineered by the SLDF, then there's an equal chance that the Covenant may create a weapon that can combat BattleMechs on the ground. After all, they already have the gigantic Scarab walkers; no reason they couldn't create something nimbler and more compact for the Elites and Grunts to drive by themselves. Let's not forget the Hunters, either. They have those massive Fuel Rod Cannons that can lay waste to pretty much anything, plus their shields are made from starship plating- I doubt even a PPC or an AC/20 could break it (though it would certainly send the Hunter reeling, and leave it open for a clear shot).

[guardiandashi]

best guess estimates put the battlemech weapons into the gigajoule to multiple hundreds of gigajoule ranges
I believe the large laser may be in the 800gj range not the nac 40

additional fact a nac 40 fires a round that can hit (as more than a fluke) a target that can change velocity by up to ~4-6 g's meaning that most likely it is going to be crossing its entire range in significantly less than the 1 minute space turns take. because a 1-2 km long vessile such as a mckenna ... well never mind

the nac 40's stated range is medium the maximum distance for (capital) medium range weapons is 40 hexes and eich of those hexes is ~18km across meaning that nac 40 round can cross 720 km in a minimum of 60 seconds, and more likely under 10 seconds, and each "shot" for a nac 40 weighs 1.2 tons

[Catamount]

In some cases, it's not going to be as easy as the SLDF reverse engineering Covenant technology. The biggest thing the Covenant possibly have going for them are M/AM reactors, and honestly, if the SLDF had the infrastructure to support M/AM power, they'd already be using it. Seeing a reactor design tells them little, if anything, that they don't already know.

We know about antimatter today, and given a way to produce or harvest sufficient quantities of it, we could probably engineer a reactor with ease (it's not exactly hard to get an energy release out of the stuff ). So the SLDF might be able to learn about Covenant tech, and given a really long war, that would likely give the edge to them, because Covenant dogma precludes and kind of fast scientific advancement, but technological infrastructure doesn't just come in overnight just because one reads a blueprint and draws up a few cool things on paper.

The Covenant aren't explicitly stated to use M/AM for power generation, afaik, but they do use it for ordinance (which, alone, is frightening), and it's unlikely that the Forerunners, whos technology Covenant ships is based on, were not using M/AM tech (or some similar post-fusion generation). They're one of the most advanced races, technological, in modern science fiction, easily comparable to the Alterans in Stargate or the Federation.

So in a sudden full-blown invasion of the SLDF, it's unlikely they'd be able to repel the Covenant unless they literally able to stall them for years. That'd be difficult. The UNSC was greatly outclassed by the Covenant... the SLDF wouldn't even be a plausible challenger. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't BT ships completely lack shields? Their ground tech certainly does (unlike a good portion of the Covenant's). That alone would let their ships rip through SLDF fleets, because even if firepower was comparable (which I doubt; though Halo numbers aren't also super-easy to solidly establish, what we've seen for inferior UNSC ships is solidly in the hundreds of terrajoules for weapons (64kt MAC gun, etc)) SLDF ships would start instantly taking damage and losing systems, while Covenant ships would just brush off hits with no damage.

Shields and M/AM are both game changers. One is an absurdly potent energy source, the other basically acts like ablative armor that not only saves your ship from damage, but repairs itself afterward. I find it likely that the SLDF would just lose any fleet they possibly tried to fight back with, without inflicting notable damage, even if just between shields and the firepower advantage for the Covenant.

Edited by Catamount, 09 May 2012 - 04:02 AM.

[Lethewaters]

Weird comparison but interesting. Keep in mind that even with the Sangheili, the UNSC still had victories but they were limited or very costly. The UNSC won many of the ground wars but ultimately lost the battle mostly due to Covenant glassing the planet.

My vote though would be for the SLDF. Keep in mind that General Kerensky fought a path from the Outer Rim to Terra. Why the SLDF? The same reason why the UNSC would win, determination. Put a human against a wall and they will overcome. Put a diverse group against a wall and they will put aside their diffferences for a short time to suceed. It is a driving force in human nature.

[Pawn Couch]

What will happen to a battlemech if it came up against a super scarab.

[Adridos]

KING PINEAPYULA, on 09 May 2012 - 04:09 AM, said:

What will happen to a battlemech if it came up against a super scarab.

We would simply use our Super Crab.

[Pawn Couch]

Hold X to board Atlas

Hold X to flip Atlas

[Arctic Fox]

Catamount, on 09 May 2012 - 03:43 AM, said:

In some cases, it's not going to be as easy as the SLDF reverse engineering Covenant technology. The biggest thing the Covenant possibly have going for them are M/AM reactors, and honestly, if the SLDF had the infrastructure to support M/AM power, they'd already be using it. Seeing a reactor design tells them little, if anything, that they don't already know.

We know about antimatter today, and given a way to produce or harvest sufficient quantities of it, we could probably engineer a reactor with ease (it's not exactly hard to get an energy release out of the stuff ). So the SLDF might be able to learn about Covenant tech, and given a really long war, that would likely give the edge to them, because Covenant dogma precludes and kind of fast scientific advancement, but technological infrastructure doesn't just come in overnight just because one reads a blueprint and draws up a few cool things on paper.

The Covenant aren't explicitly stated to use M/AM for power generation, afaik, but they do use it for ordinance (which, alone, is frightening), and it's unlikely that the Forerunners, whos technology Covenant ships is based on, were not using M/AM tech (or some similar post-fusion generation). They're one of the most advanced races, technological, in modern science fiction, easily comparable to the Alterans in Stargate or the Federation.

So in a sudden full-blown invasion of the SLDF, it's unlikely they'd be able to repel the Covenant unless they literally able to stall them for years. That'd be difficult. The UNSC was greatly outclassed by the Covenant... the SLDF wouldn't even be a plausible challenger. I mean, correct me if I'm wrong, but don't BT ships completely lack shields? Their ground tech certainly does (unlike a good portion of the Covenant's). That alone would let their ships rip through SLDF fleets, because even if firepower was comparable (which I doubt; though Halo numbers aren't also super-easy to solidly establish, what we've seen for inferior UNSC ships is solidly in the hundreds of terrajoules for weapons (64kt MAC gun, etc)) SLDF ships would start instantly taking damage and losing systems, while Covenant ships would just brush off hits with no damage.

Shields and M/AM are both game changers. One is an absurdly potent energy source, the other basically acts like ablative armor that not only saves your ship from damage, but repairs itself afterward. I find it likely that the SLDF would just lose any fleet they possibly tried to fight back with, without inflicting notable damage, even if just between shields and the firepower advantage for the Covenant.

It should be noted that BattleTech's fusion reactors violate conservation of energy completely and utterly. Matter/Antimatter is nothing compared to the drives that can accelerate BattleTech's WarShips and DropShips to large precentages of the speed of light with ridiculously low mass ratios.

Anyway, I'd have to wager on the SLDF. It will be fairly hard for them to win against the Covenant's handwavium in an actual fight, of course. But if both sides are dropped into the real world then the SLDF's will only lose their FTL drives and much of their drive's and armour's efficiency, while the Covenant ships would be utterly helpless.

Edited by Arctic Fox, 09 May 2012 - 04:36 AM.

[Trevnor]

I must point something out here, that most of you guys seem to be forgetting. The SLDF had warships. Jumpships that were well armed and armored. Also, not to mention that the military dropships also had good amount of weaponry. A Naval grade laser or gauss rifle are big enough that a single volley from the warship would flatten a city. The gauss rounds alone were as big, if not bigger, than 'mechs.

I have to give the edge to the SLDF, right off the bat. Much faster scientific advancement, heavy hitting warships, battlemechs. Sure, they would loose some of the outlying planets, but once warships started showing up on station, the Covies would glassing a planet, and then BOOM, full broadside volley of gauss, PPC, laser, missles. That's a lot of pounding for shields to take.

[Pawn Couch]

What if the Covies uncoverd a flood containment facilty on one of the SLDF planets and unleashed it.

[Zakatak]

Arctic Fox, on 09 May 2012 - 04:25 AM, said:

It should be noted that BattleTech's fusion reactors violate conservation of energy completely and utterly. Matter/Antimatter is nothing compared to the drives that can accelerate BattleTech's WarShips and DropShips to large precentages of the speed of light with ridiculously low mass ratios.

Anyway, I'd have to wager on the SLDF. It will be fairly hard for them to win against the Covenant's handwavium in an actual fight, of course. But if both sides are dropped into the real world then the SLDF's will only lose their FTL drives and much of their drive's and armour's efficiency, while the Covenant ships would be utterly helpless.

BTech reactors can't be that powerful. They can charge their drives faster using a solar sail at 20AU then if they used their reactors.

My 800GJ estimate was just based off of estimates using the Heavy Gauss as a control. If the HGauss fires a 250kg slug at 3000m/s, that is 1.125GJ, and the naval variant is 400 times heavier (but only 9x the heat), so I guess you could say they do 400 times the damage. The NAC/40 is about 1.5x more powerful then that, and there you go.

Edited by Zakatak, 09 May 2012 - 04:51 AM.