106 replies to this topic

[Catamount]

Arctic Fox, on 12 May 2012 - 03:19 PM, said:

Obviously Covenant shields must block electromagnetic radiation at certain frequencies, since they are seen being effected by nuclear weapons which release the vast majority of their energy as X-rays. But visibile light, at least, can obviously go through them unless, I suppose, they specifically tell it not to, which would be rather hard for them to do if they're attacked by lasers.

I don't see what would be difficult about blocking lasers at specific points in a shield. As I noted, even if the shields had long reaction times on the scales of computers (and an entire millisecond is pretty darned long for a computer), it's still entirely possible for them to block the vast majority of laser shots fired at them, depending on the duration of such weapons, and honestly, there's nothing that necessitates particularly slow reaction times. There's no reason the shields couldn't react in nanoseconds, or picoseconds, short enough that these franchises are incapable of sufficient power outputs to actually inflict laser damage in such periods of times. So basically, they'd just have a very controllable bleedthrough issue.

Quote

Oh? They have access to cybernetically enhanced special operations troops with powered armour, which is essentially all the Spartans are. Well, minus the plot armour, obviously.

Spartan's aren't just soldiers wearing suits with a bit of extra training. John 117 fought off five marines, alone, when he was 14 years old, killing two of them and severely wounding the others, onboard the UNSC Atlas. Some of the surviving Spartan II candidates are capable of running faster than 55kph (well over 100kph on rare occasions while armored), they have a commensurate increase in reflexes (~20ms), they're no less than three times stronger than normal humans of equivalent size, they can effectively see in the dark... and they get powered armor that, afaik, is superior than anything else BT gets in an equivalent-sized package (the shields are certainly nice)

I personally think the Spartan IIs' capabilities are taken to a somewhat silly extent, but considering the absurd things that no one here is complaining about on BT ships, it's a small issue for the purpose of this discussion (just so long as we don't start considering the high-exajoule range S-MAC yields described in some places That IS silly ).

Edited by Catamount, 12 May 2012 - 04:24 PM.

[Arctic Fox]

Catamount, on 12 May 2012 - 04:01 PM, said:

I don't see what would be difficult about blocking lasers at specific points in a shield. As I noted, even if the shields had long reaction times on the scales of computers (and an entire millisecond is pretty darned long for a computer), it's still entirely possible for them to block the vast majority of laser shots fired at them, depending on the duration of such weapons, and honestly, there's nothing that necessitates particularly slow reaction times. There's no reason the shields couldn't react in nanoseconds, or picoseconds, short enough that these franchises are incapable of sufficient power outputs to actually inflict laser damage in such periods of times. So basically, they'd just have a very controllable bleedthrough issue.

True, I suppose, but it would still leave them vulnerable to it to some extent. It wouldn't explain why they'd have to drop their shields to fire their own weapons, though, so the most likely explanation for that would probably be their own lack of understanding of the technology.

Catamount, on 12 May 2012 - 04:01 PM, said:

Spartan's aren't just soldiers wearing suits with a bit of extra training. John 117 fought off five marines, alone, when he was 14 years old, killing two of them and severely wounding the others, onboard the UNSC Atlas. Some of the surviving Spartan II candidates are capable of running faster than 55kph (well over 100kph on rare occasions while armored), they have a commensurate increase in reflexes (~20ms), they're no less than three times stronger than normal humans of equivalent size, they can effectively see in the dark... and they get powered armor that, afaik, is superior than anything else BT gets in an equivalent-sized package (the shields are certainly nice)

I personally think the Spartan IIs' capabilities are taken to a somewhat silly extent, but considering the absurd things that no one here is complaining about on BT ships, it's a small issue for the purpose of this discussion (just so long as we don't start considering the high-exajoule range S-MAC yields described in some places That IS silly ).

Elective implants in BattleTech allow for massive strength and speed boosts with myomer muscle replacements and prosthetics, cybernetic eye and ear implants allow enhanced sight and hearing in addition to things like IR vision and picking up radio signals, lung enhancements give resistance to gas attacks and so forth. Doesn't sound much worse than what the Spartans have, and I do believe that the failure rate for implanting these systems, though it exists, is not nearly as high as demonstrated by the Spartans.

Now, i'm not certain if the Star League has access to all the implants found in the 31st century, but I think it's safe to say they either did or can get access to nearly all of them except EI and VDNI, which aren't extremely useful without Battle Armour, a ProtoMech or BattleMech anyway.

As for the armor, I don't doubt the shields are a nice bonus, but some of the PA(L) suits in BattleTech are incredibly murderous. For example, ComStar's 400kg P17 Hurricane, without accounting for any special enhancements to the user, can move at 32km/h, carries an AP Gauss Rifle (and small arms of your choice) which chews through infantry like tissue paper, has stealth armour, making it hard to detect, and just barely too little of it to survive a 'Mech's small laser (Well, it is designed not to be hit by something like that in the first place).

Something like this wouldn't directly be available to the SLDF, as its Stealth Armor would provide less protection than the Clan version ComStar uses and it would have to replace the AP Gauss Rifle (also a Clan weapon) with something else like a Small Laser or Heavy Machine Gun, but it still had the ability to create some very effective power armor that I think would rival Halo's (with the exception of the energy shields).

Edited by Arctic Fox, 12 May 2012 - 06:35 PM.

[Zakatak]

And here we have the UNSC Mackie. Looks to be an AC/20 and... some smoke grenades.

Edited by Zakatak, 12 May 2012 - 05:42 PM.

[Catamount]

Arctic Fox, on 12 May 2012 - 05:09 PM, said:

Elective implants in BattleTech allow for massive strength and speed boosts with myomer muscle replacements and prosthetics, cybernetic eye and ear implants allow enhanced sight and hearing in addition to things like IR vision and picking up radio signals, lung enhancements give resistance to gas attacks and so forth. Doesn't sound much worse than what the Spartans have, and I do believe that the failure rate for implanting these systems, though it exists, is not nearly as high as demonstrated by the Spartans.

I didn't realize the SLDF actually went very far into that themselves, though, still, the Spartans are extreme in capability (I mean the damn guys run almost 60kph, or possibly that fast, without armor), but, and this is a but, they are very few, until later in the war, which comes to the next point.

You are very correct about the Spartan failure rate; in fact, you're understating it. Of the 75 children who comprised on group of candidates, 30 died and 12 were crippled. So 33 out of 75 survived the program without debilitating injuries. The child death/maim rate for Spartan II candidates was absolutely grotesque. Most of those candidates left crippled were treated as well as the UNSC could manage; they were given good jobs in naval intelligence. Still... the tactics the UNSC had to resort to day in and day out to buy another day or another week before total annihilation. The Spartan II program was bad, the Spartan III program was even worse (lower failure rate, but almost every candidate was basically used for desperate suicide missions)

Edited by Catamount, 15 May 2012 - 06:34 AM.

[Alymbic]

Catamount, on 12 May 2012 - 07:35 PM, said:

The Spartan II program was bad, the Spartan III program was even worse (higher failure rate, but almost every candidate was basically used for desperate suicide missions)

Hate to prove you wrong, but there was less than a 1% failure rate on the Spartan III's, and the a 100% success rate in the final Gamma Company of Spartan III's. Sure they didnt get the full suite of augmentations, but I'd gladly take the 440 large Gamma Company over SLDF infantry. And I'm not even going to start going into the Spartan IV's.

And the Spartan III's were trained for suicide missions, and as far as the canon is concerned, succeded in all of there objectives. For missions too hard for an ODST special forces team, but not quite critical enough to risk losing a Spartan II team.

[Catamount]

Alymbic, on 14 May 2012 - 07:23 PM, said:

Hate to prove you wrong, but there was less than a 1% failure rate on the Spartan III's, and the a 100% success rate in the final Gamma Company of Spartan III's. Sure they didnt get the full suite of augmentations, but I'd gladly take the 440 large Gamma Company over SLDF infantry. And I'm not even going to start going into the Spartan IV's.

And the Spartan III's were trained for suicide missions, and as far as the canon is concerned, succeded in all of there objectives. For missions too hard for an ODST special forces team, but not quite critical enough to risk losing a Spartan II team.

D'OH! I mistyped there; I meant to say lower failure rate. Yes, I'm aware the Spartan IIIs were almost completely successful in the augmentation process... and then thrown away in suicide runs (save a lucky few standouts). But hey, the UNSC survived, so I guess it was all worth it in the end.

Still, thanks for catching the mistake

Edited by Catamount, 15 May 2012 - 06:34 AM.

[990Dreams]

STEP ON ZE COVENANT! This is from Halo, right (only played halo once )