322 replies to this topic

[Deadoon]

Zeh, on 29 November 2012 - 10:23 AM, said:

4 LL Cataphract says differently. 31 SHS is 10000x better than the (14?) DHS you can fit on that sucker. If they were 2.0 HS the difference would be less.. but still in favor of 31 SHS.

That means 21 tons of heatsinks outside of engine(not part of)
10 heatsinks at 2.0 as they are now in the engine makes that engine now 20 heatsinks of heat dispersion.
7 outside or mounted to the engine at 1.4 is 9.8 so you get 29.8 heatsinks now.
At 2.0 outside, you get a massive boost of 4.2 heat suction bringing you up to a crippling 34 heat suction for the same amount of slot usage(7 doubles uses 21 slots). So you have a net gain of 3 heat gen and 14 tons for other ****. Add a few more singles and you end up having a net gain in heat dispersion from single heatsinks, even in tt.

Pretty much the problem currently, single heatsinks aka stuff that is so simple they can be manufactured with degenerated facilities, is more viable than former lostech devices that by canon have all but replaced standard heatsinks, except where areas don't have the funding to support their usage like the periphery.

Oh and one design that suffers from ineffective doubles, the awesome series mechs, mount as many singles as you like, replace all those ppc with large lasers and add more heat sinks, it'll never be enough, until compact heatsinks are available in 9 years.

Edited by Deadoon, 29 November 2012 - 10:40 AM.

[MrPenguin]

wanderer, on 29 November 2012 - 10:34 AM, said:

DHS never WERE at true 2.0.

We had a patch with DHS that were only DHS inside the engine. Then we had one where DHS were cruddier outside the engine than in. In no case did we have 2.0 DHS for all heat sinks in all locations. PGI's QA was testing based off of numbers that had no basis in reality, from our own testing.

It hasn't taken much math-fu whatsoever to prove that the freakish nightmare scenarios people has posted for if we DID have real DHS simply wouldn't exist. Even when engine-only DHS were 2.0, amazingly lights didn't turn into super-lethal death-ray spitting fire platforms of energy weapon ownage. (That would be the lagshield and no collisions, thanks much PGI).

2.0 DHS. Now. It's broken any other way.



If you can manage your heat with the current implementation of DHS, then you're working too hard to do it.

Un-practiced theory's prove nothing to me. Doesn't mean you can't be right, but you could be wrong as well.
I don't usually have tendencies to except something as "fact" until its been proven outside of theory. Which is why I usually take anything written by users on a forum with a grain of salt. This is place of ideas and theory's, not practice and proper experimentation as far as gameplay and what not is concerned.

Sorry if this came out as rude, but that's just how I see things. Sorry in advanced if this offends you.

[TruePoindexter]

rolly, on 29 November 2012 - 10:10 AM, said:

Agreed wholeheartedly. Their Jenner reasoning for a DHS nerf to 1.4 doesn't hold up any longer.

Food for thought. If MechWarrior, MW2 (all of its franchise expansions) MW3, AND MW4 have DHS that work effectively and not hamper the game. Why mess with damage values and SHS/DHS cooling values? If it isn't broken, well proven and canon. Please don't fix it.

To be fair - it was broken in MW3. It followed TT rules fairly closely and so in the upper tiers of play lasers reigned supreme. 12 ER Medium Laser and 16 ER Small Laser boats made up the vast majority of the field unless energy weapons were removed from play (in the league games you could bid on what weapons were allowed).

MW4 did not have DHS, they just had HS that you added to the mech but occupied no space. Lasers still reigned supreme here with the ER Large Laser becoming the weapon of choice.

In MWO I see a nice spread of lasers, AC's, and missiles. PPC's, Large Pulse Lasers, and ER Large Lasers are definitely viable on builds that center around them. Really I only think the ER PPC is a bit broken and regular PPC's could use a slight boost.

[Wolfways]

Lefty Lucy, on 29 November 2012 - 10:25 AM, said:

Seriously. I'm tired of seeing mechs that equip multiple PPCs/ERPPCs and simply ignoring them, as I know they're likely to be shut down half the match anyways. They should be frightening.

I used a K2 in CB and now i use a K3 (ERPPC's + 20DHS) and the enemy ignoring me is a benefit for me, but i'd rather shutdown less and help my team more.
I need real DHS!

[Jeff K Notagoon]

wanderer, on 29 November 2012 - 10:34 AM, said:

If you can manage your heat with the current implementation of DHS, then you're working too hard to do it.

ARGH firing discipline is too hard!

[Deadoon]

Jeff K Notagoon, on 29 November 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

ARGH firing discipline is too hard!

Sorry to disappoint you about this, but even with doubles running at full, firing discipline on high heat builds like ppc and erppc will always be an issue, but *** of now, there is an about 60% increase in excess heat generated by my k2 build due to DHS not being proper.

Wolfways, on 29 November 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

I used a K2 in CB and now i use a K3 (ERPPC's + 20DHS) and the enemy ignoring me is a benefit for me, but i'd rather shutdown less and help my team more.
I need real DHS!

I'd love to be able to use a k3 effectively, but current heat gen issues make it unfeasible for consistent damage

Edited by Deadoon, 29 November 2012 - 10:48 AM.

[Mu]

I don't think 2.0 would be overpowered now that pulse lasers are crap again. Can't even run two LPL anymore.

That said dubs are waaaaaay better than singles right now and I don't run SHS on ANYTHING. Maybe bump engine sinks down to 1.6-1.8 and out-of-engine sinks to 2.2. Just to try it out...even though it'd ruin some of my builds.

[TruePoindexter]

Deadoon, on 29 November 2012 - 10:48 AM, said:

Sorry to disappoint you about this, but even with doubles running at full, firing discipline on high heat builds like ppc and erppc will always be an issue, but *** of now, there is an about 60% increase in excess heat generated by my k2 build due to DHS not being proper.

I run a Hunchback 4P with 2x PPC 3x ML and handle the heat fine. Chain fire the PPC's and judiciously use cover to give yourself some cooldown time. With the PPC's in the shoulder you can snipe by peeking just your head and shoulders out like a Gaussback but fire a lot faster. Once PPC's get their ECM effect I expect this build to become even more lethal.

[Nightfangs]

Change the DHS back to 2.0. Every DHS, not just the engine ones.
It's kind of sad to repeat that again and again...

[TruePoindexter]

Nightfangs, on 29 November 2012 - 10:54 AM, said:

Change the DHS back to 2.0. Every DHS, not just the engine ones.
It's kind of sad to repeat that again and again...

I kinda disagree though. MWO is the first Mechwarrior game where lasers weren't the obvious weapon of choice. Other weapons are viable and in some cases preferred. Lets face it but TT rules were more or less broken since they never tried to make weapons viable or keep things balanced. Believe it or not most of the balance we appreciated in TT was from the lore dictating what was acceptable not the game's mechanics.

[Wolfways]

Deadoon, on 29 November 2012 - 10:48 AM, said:

I'd love to be able to use a k3 effectively, but current heat gen issues make it unfeasible for consistent damage

True, but i tried all the mechs and the K2 is the only mech ingame so far that i like
I even use SL's and MG's in my other weapon slots just for something to use at close range when needed in order for my heat to dissipate as fast as possible. Sucky damage while my heat is dropping is better than no damage at all.

[QuantumButler]

Wolfways, on 29 November 2012 - 10:59 AM, said:

True, but i tried all the mechs and the K2 is the only mech ingame so far that i like
I even use SL's and MG's in my other weapon slots just for something to use at close range when needed in order for my heat to dissipate as fast as possible. Sucky damage while my heat is dropping is better than no damage at all.

WRONG.

You're literally better off dropping those mgs for more heatsinks, each MG has 0.04 damage per bullet, it takes a solid 10 seconds of shooting to deal TWO DAMAGE.

you'd get more DPS out of two extra heatsink that let you fire your real guns marginally faster.

[TruePoindexter]

QuantumButler, on 29 November 2012 - 11:02 AM, said:

WRONG.

You're literally better off dropping those mgs for more heatsinks, each MG has 0.04 damage per bullet, it takes a solid 10 seconds of shooting to deal TWO DAMAGE.

you'd get more DPS out of two extra heatsink that let you fire your real guns marginally faster.

This. MG's are utterly broken. One of two weapons in the game not worth mounting.

[Squid von Torgar]

I agree, its high time that Heavies and Assaults saw the full benefit of DHS, rather than just lights and mediums

[TruePoindexter]

Squid von Torgar, on 29 November 2012 - 11:11 AM, said:

I agree, its high time that Heavies and Assaults saw the full benefit of DHS, rather than just lights and mediums

I run DHS in all my Cataphract's I'd say I get lots of use from DHS there.

Assault's are really the only ones that have a valid claim of preferring SHS over DHS but this makes sense given that the entire point of DHS is to loose space for saving weight and an Assault is short on space but has lots of free weight.

[Viper69]

Yeah, this needs fixed or rather made correct. We have a double edged sword. We have weapons that fire faster than their table top version, with heatsinks that sink less heat than their table top versions. So what you have is weapons accumulating heat more than they ever would. So their solution is make the sinks worse because of a god damned jenner? That same Jenner that is still doing what it was their reasons for not making them correct in the first place. More of the ad hock house rules.

[Rotaugen]

Pendraco, on 29 November 2012 - 10:34 AM, said:

Now I would like to know what planet I am dropping on so that I can choose a suitable 'Mech. It never fails to drop me onto the worst possible planet for whatever 'Mech I currently have selected!

EXACTLY. If we knew where we would drop, we would be better able to manage heat by knowing what to bring. I'll build a LL build and end up on Caustic several times in a row. I'll switch, then end up in Frozen.

[Thuzel]

Absolutely agree. We need true 2.0 DHS.

Without that, energy-centric builds are significantly weakened.

[Woodpeckr]

Even assaults do better with them, I run DHS on all 3 of my Atlas mechs. Unless you plan to load up a grand total of over 30 singles you are better off with doubles. And if you do load up over 30 singles you are needlessly castrating your firepower in most circumstances. There are very very few builds where singles will do better than doubles and those are always some sort of energy boat, which isn't making proper use of the missile and ballistic hardpoints, and will invariably be outdps'd by an equivalent mech who does use these hardpoints. Pretty much the only case I can see for using singles is if you made some kind of large laser/PPC only sniping mech. But this sort of design will get dominated in DPS at closer ranges by someone using say UAC5s or streaks

[Thuzel]

Rotaugen, on 29 November 2012 - 11:16 AM, said:

EXACTLY. If we knew where we would drop, we would be better able to manage heat by knowing what to bring. I'll build a LL build and end up on Caustic several times in a row. I'll switch, then end up in Frozen.

This is presumably where the different play modes and community warfare would come in. What we've got right now is essentially just the random deathmatch mode.