90 replies to this topic

[shabowie]

Garrand, on 30 November 2012 - 01:09 AM, said:

There isn't any reason to use a Raven without ECM.

That's the fault of the designers. If they artificially nerf a mech with the hardpoint system or bad system of determining max engine size it's up to them to correct it without creating another massive game imbalance which is what ECM probably will be.

[Jman5]

I vote no for now, because frankly we have no idea how it's going to change the dynamic of the game until it goes live. Better to start off conservative and then consider adding more mechs to the ECM list as you get a clearer picture.

[ICEFANG13]

The Raven-3L is by far the best. I know its supposed to be the best at electronic warfare, but the 2X and 4X are already so bad in comparison. Honestly, I think the Jenner-D is going to have a fair amount of trouble, as the Raven-3L is almost as good as it, and for me personally, I found it better overall.

I'm also a fan of buffs before nerfs, I think the 2X and 4X and 3L should all be limited to around a 275-85 engine. The 3L would still be awesome, the 2X can be great, and the 4X (ballistics right? I always get 2 and 4 mixed up), can be... well, lets wait for Machine Guns to work properly.

Edited by ICEFANG13, 02 December 2012 - 05:53 PM.

[Aurien Titus]

If every 'mech could fit an ECM suite, every 'mech would. I would have replaced the AMS in every 'mech with an ECM suite if they had allowed any 'mech to fit it. And so would have a lot of other people too.

[Der BruzZzler von Wiesndoof]

"Should ECM be available to all mechs?"

You're crazy?

[Joseph Mallan]

Then make an ECCM a piece of equipment separate from ECM. Cause every Mech should have access to ECCM.

[shabowie]

ICEFANG13, on 02 December 2012 - 05:52 PM, said:

The Raven-3L is by far the best. I know its supposed to be the best at electronic warfare, but the 2X and 4X are already so bad in comparison. Honestly, I think the Jenner-D is going to have a fair amount of trouble, as the Raven-3L is almost as good as it, and for me personally, I found it better overall.

They won't really fulfill the same roles with all the upcoming changes.

The Jenner D will still end up being the superior dogfighter or harassing unit using single or dual SRM4s.

The 1.5 ton hit for ECM and 1 less energy hardpoint, no JJ and slightly slower speed on the Raven will put it at a slight disadvantage still in terms of maneuverability and firepower. Streaks will end up not being as good as they are now, through combination of spreading damage to arms and legs more reliably and taking away flash/smoke and shake, or all of the above.

They could do good working together though.

Edited by shabowie, 02 December 2012 - 07:39 PM.

[Voidsinger]

I think the major choice changer here is that PGI has gone well beyond what Guardian does on the Tabletop.

Tabletop Guardian did not affect Streaks (have to wait for Angel). Therefore, Guardian becomes a Streak nullifier, or permits Streaks to work. This alone grossly affects loadouts on all mechs.

TAG needed to obtain lockon. They mention this as a countermeasure, but is broken in two ways. The first is it was never needed in tabletop, the second is that by implementing TAG as a weapon rather than equipment, you are forced to give up an energy slot. The Centurion is the mech worst affected by this, due to the 2 energy weapons on 3 variants both being centre torso (major balance issue). Was this considered when choosing the medium weight? Because the Cicada can carry TAG for just 1 of 4, and the rest of the weapons are ECM immune.

PPCs: The other disruption weapon coming in. The ability to carry a PPC, TAG and ECM effectively makes a mech a walking disruptor. The Raven, the Atlas and the Cicada can all do this.

Some mechs don't have access to disruption or counter-disruption weaponry at all (several have to make major sacrifices). The changes from tabletop means there is a digression from the assumptions used to design balanced mechs. This means canon assumptions change.

Hence, I voted Yes.

[ICEFANG13]

When I used my RVN-3L I ran it with 1 less heatsink, because the way it fired its missiles, it ran cooler overall, and it can hold less energy weapons. Its 295 max engine and that less heatsink is the exact same thing for the ECM, and the Jenner only moves ~1.5 KPH faster at that point. While the Jenner can have more firepower via lasers, the Raven can have 3/4 of the power, and the SSRMs will work. That advantage is huge.

[shabowie]

If the SSRMs start getting any of the tweaks being thrown around for them they stop being advantageous over SRMs which can be aimed manually at specific spots.

I predict SRMs and other direct fire weapons get a big bump in effectiveness from ECM introduction.

Edited by shabowie, 02 December 2012 - 08:17 PM.

[Stingz]

Miken, on 29 November 2012 - 10:57 PM, said:

At least ECM must be available to different type of same mechs, if one raven have ECM, then why all other ravens have not? It is the same platform!!!

The other ravens stripped off the ECM equipment in favor of more gun. Had to tear off the electronics to make room for hard-point circuitry/heat sinks.

[Voidsinger]

Stingz, on 02 December 2012 - 08:06 PM, said:

The other ravens stripped off the ECM equipment in favor of more gun. Had to tear off the electronics to make room for hard-point circuitry/heat sinks.

I think what you are forgetting is that ECM is a huge module that interfaces with the communications system.

The Early Raven EW suite was discarded. Therefore, they built a new interface to the Ceres Metals Series 666 communications system for the Guardian ECM, just as the Apple Churchill needed an interface to the Beagle Probe.

So, if the Communications system remained the same, implementation is simply a matter of fitting the module internally, and plugging in the interface.

Likewise with other mechs. Fitting Guardian would require that an interface to the communications system be written.

So Decree of PGI is the only thing stopping it. Just like all the other restricted mechs in spite of changed conditions changing the assumptions they were designed on.

[Stingz]

Voidsinger, on 02 December 2012 - 08:20 PM, said:

So, if the Communications system remained the same, implementation is simply a matter of fitting the module internally, and plugging in the interface.

The prototype RVN-1X uses a CeresCom Model 22-A. The -2X is just a refit of the prototype, and the -4X is a modified RVN-1X made for combat.

The RVN-3L though uses a Ceres Metals Model 666 w/Guardian ECM Suit, built-in and stock.

Raven | Comm Systems

Edited by Stingz, 02 December 2012 - 08:43 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

I voted "Yes", but what I really think:

1) It should still be balanced if every mech on the battlefield could have it.
2) I don't mind if it's limited to a subset of mechs for niche protection.

I believe if it's so good that it would be unbalanced if every mech could have it, but there are mechs in every weight class that have it, we will see only mechs that have it.

[Justa Dogtrooper]

AmS is available to all mechs but not all choose to fit it, some just trusting to the coverage of others.
Ecm will probably end up the same...only 75% even bothering...add to that most trial mechs wont have it.
As it stands they will be extremely rare I think.
This is going to make them seem OP but if more varients had it, then chances are you will have counter Ecm on your side.
All mechs is going way too far, some just cant fit it.
Many more could though.....

[Joseph Mallan]

Not all Mechs Need ECM but all Mechs deserve ECCM. Make a ECCM unit that every mech can have.

Justa, You are probably right. I know I want ECM on most of My Mechs, but if a Team mate is carrying one, cool.

But by limiting it to the scouts, you are taking away one of the PRIMARY uses of the ECM unit. Scouts are rarely "near" their team mates. And that is taking away a layer of protection from them. Put an ECM in an Atlas/Catapult, have the team form up inside the ECM "bubble", Advance as a unit. This is how an ECM can be effectively used. Scout carry two ECMs so they can have the protection AND be able to counter an enemy ECM at the same time.

[John Norad]

Obadiah333, on 29 November 2012 - 10:46 PM, said:

Posted about this many, many times already. ECM for everyone. I have YET to hear a valid reason why some mechs should get it and others shouldn't.

Diversity.
There, one reason. You may disagree, but that's beside the point.

[Kensaisama]

The entitlement is strong in this thread.

[BFalcon]

Voted No... too much ECM would make the game too awkward for certain weapons... thinking LRMs and (possibly) streaks here.

Protecting scouts for their TAG duties, on the other hand, I'm all for.

[Lightfoot]

First off I think the super-ECM PGI is talking about is too much and will distort gameplay into something that is no longer like Battletech.

Secondly, there is nothing unusual about 'mechs carrying ECM or BAP, what is restricted is 'mechs that can carry both ECM and BAP. That would be a Raven, Loki, some Atlas models. For MWO I would say more 'mechs should be able to carry ECM, but not all.