88 replies to this topic

[MustrumRidcully]

Teralitha, on 30 November 2012 - 12:40 AM, said:

I agree that the PPC does not need a minimum range... Whats the argument behind this anyway? to make taking ERPPC worth it? If that is the logic, then ERLarge Laser needs a minimum range too.

I believe I've heard it was basically a typo that bacame a hard rule. Back in the old days they printed a rulebook with ER PPCs and forgot to write the minimum range in. The original purpose of the ER PPC was probably just to extend the range in one direction - further out.

The PPC (and some other weapons) had a minimum range probably for balance reasons. At close range, these weapon would perform really well, since they would normally have a very low to-hit modifier. This gave them a weakness at close range and gave mechs relying on them an interesting shortcoming that smart players could use. At the same time, at longer ranges, the PPC was one of the most devestating weapon, only overshadowed by the much heavier AC/20.


Do we really need this "feature" in MW:O? I don't think so.

[Cole Allard]

Vincent Lynch, on 30 November 2012 - 03:39 AM, said:

I wrote this elsewhere before...

A PPC is, in fact, a ballistic weapon which does not require ammo, cannot explode, is way lighter than the other ballistic weapon of the same damage (or has the same weight with a more than appropriate number of DHS, IF it's your 2nd PPC), and can be mounted in mechs without ballistic slots, which is, nearly every mech (all current chassis have energy slots except the Cat-A1, and all upcoming do, except if the CN9-AH is reintroduced).

They must have SOME disadvantage versus an AC10.
Which is the minimum range in case of the PPC and the heat in case of the ERPPC.
And that's why I say if you drop one of those "canon nerfs" they would be overpowered.

The AWS-9M overheats so easily because it carries 3 ER PPCs. With 3 Standard PPCs it would be a decent Mech, as it has 20 DHS of which 12 are engine-mounted, so it has the equivalent of 35.2 single HS.

Your post is awesome...for someone actually looking to learn something about it.

OP is not, he's demanding this silly stuff to get kicked out.

[Poppaukko]

yashmack, on 30 November 2012 - 12:48 AM, said:

I can tell you that using a standard PPC I have caused damage at less than 90 meters, I have caused damage at 10m with a stock non extended range PPC...
but again, I will test it when I get home, I may be mistaken or something... lol

One game I tested this, took 3 hits from a PPC to my Jenner CT, my armor went to yellow and didn't change from that. Distance to the shooter was maybe 10 meters. So there might be little damage from that distance but definitely nothing to worry about.

[Death Knell]

Cole Allard, on 30 November 2012 - 03:44 AM, said:

Your post is awesome...for someone actually looking to learn something about it.

OP is not, he's demanding this silly stuff to get kicked out.

You're trying to balance weapons around the AC/10, which is one of the most useless weapons available in the game. The downsides to the PPC, beyond the minimum range, include the fact that it generates a ton of heat. Why don't we compare it to the other available long range 'sniper' weapon, the Gauss Rifle?

The Gauss weighs over twice as much, but also does one and a half times as much damage. The ERPPC generates 13 times more heat than the Gauss rifle. This plus the balance of heat sinks makes the (ER)PPC one of the worst weapons available. This is only compounded by the minimum range issue. It's why you see tons of gauss rifles and very few PPC's.

[Max Liao]

Teralitha, on 30 November 2012 - 12:49 AM, said:

To ******* hell with canon

To hell with the BattleTech/MechWarrior IP!
Let's play Internet Space Robots with Kung Fu Grip Online.

[ScientificMethod]

No offense but the ppc is just fine. I've gotten my hunchback trio up to master with it. The ppc is an amazing wapon. It does a little less damage than the gauss rifle, you fire faster, and have no weight limits. For the price of one gauss rifle and ammo you can arguably have two ppc's (their heat isn't all that bad with DHS, at least if you can connect your shots) and their heatsinks. For the best effect pick a medium build that can move enough that the 90m limit isn't an issue, don't load up on more than 2 ppc's they reload fast enough that you're just wasting tonnage, and if possible stick them both in the same arm so you don't deal with convergence.

That's dealing an ac20's worth of damage at twice the range, with no ammo limitation. However, if you can't maneuver well enough to deal with a simple 90m limitation (next time you're in game find something 90m out, it's a very small distance), you probably should go for a different weapon.

Edited by ScientificMethod, 30 November 2012 - 04:43 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

It doesn't have to go. it would be nice if it did go though.

[Sajuk Kar]

I hope one day they will implement a feature that lets you turn the "field inhibitor" on the ppc on or off. That way you could chose to be able to to engage people up close with them, but you'll also run the risk of blowing yourself up. Mabey when they overhaul the ppc's to give them emp like effects they'll do that.

Edited by Sajuk Kar, 30 November 2012 - 05:53 AM.

[Chief 117]

Make it that for every potential damage reduction you take that ammount of damage yourself (above 90m, enemy 10 you 0, 80m enemy 10 you 1, at 0m enemy 10 you 10) this is how it works in the lore (basically)

[Vincent Lynch]

Death Knell, on 30 November 2012 - 04:25 AM, said:

You're trying to balance weapons around the AC/10, which is one of the most useless weapons available in the game. The downsides to the PPC, beyond the minimum range, include the fact that it generates a ton of heat. Why don't we compare it to the other available long range 'sniper' weapon, the Gauss Rifle?

The Gauss weighs over twice as much, but also does one and a half times as much damage. The ERPPC generates 13 times more heat than the Gauss rifle. This plus the balance of heat sinks makes the (ER)PPC one of the worst weapons available. This is only compounded by the minimum range issue. It's why you see tons of gauss rifles and very few PPC's.

There's one reason why "one does not simply" calculate in multiples of heat when building BattleMechs: You get 10 Heat Sinks for free. And if you don't take DHS, that's your problem.
There's a reason why my Cat-2K carries ONE gauss and ONE PPC.

Edit: That's not entirely true, I also like the Falconer Mech.

Edited by Vincent Lynch, 30 November 2012 - 06:13 AM.

[Budor]

Jade Kitsune, on 30 November 2012 - 01:33 AM, said:

First off, below minimum range, PPC's do reduced damage up to 0 at 0 meters.

Secondly the current "Trial awesome" Runs ERPPC's which have no minimum range.

/quote the importent post

[MustrumRidcully]

Vincent Lynch, on 30 November 2012 - 06:12 AM, said:

There's one reason why "one does not simply" calculate in multiples of heat when building BattleMechs: You get 10 Heat Sinks for free. And if you don't take DHS, that's your problem.
There's a reason why my Cat-2K carries ONE gauss and ONE PPC.

Edit: That's not entirely true, I also like the Falconer Mech.

One of the big drawbacks of the AWS-8Q and the HBK 4P, for example - they can't mix weapon types. The second PPC becomes quite costly to add, a Gauss Rifle is more bang per ton. I might even be cool with energy weapons generally designed to "freeload" on the engine heat sinks and being supposed to be augmented with missiles and ballistics. But not all mechs can do that, so I am afraid it's not a "fair" option.

But I did make an efficiency analysis of all weapons that did take into account engine heat sinks. (And I even uploaded the spreadsheets so everyone can run through the math and tweak stuff for himself.)
https://docs.google....Q3Q4NlVNbW9wTGs

Graph:

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 30 November 2012 - 06:42 AM.

[Orkhepaj]

Oh I didnt know it has minimum range:P well never used it
But seeing how it is a ballistic/energy hybrid weapon it makes no sense it has a minimum range.

[Sug]

The minimum range was meant to balance PPC but they're already balanced in the sense that they're awful.

[Orkhepaj]

MustrumRidcully, on 30 November 2012 - 06:39 AM, said:

One of the big drawbacks of the AWS-8Q and the HBK 4P, for example - they can't mix weapon types. The second PPC becomes quite costly to add, a Gauss Rifle is more bang per ton. I might even be cool with energy weapons generally designed to "freeload" on the engine heat sinks and being supposed to be augmented with missiles and ballistics. But not all mechs can do that, so I am afraid it's not a "fair" option.

But I did make an efficiency analysis of all weapons that did take into account engine heat sinks. (And I even uploaded the spreadsheets so everyone can run through the math and tweak stuff for himself.)
https://docs.google....Q3Q4NlVNbW9wTGs

Graph:

hmm machinggun is clrly the best it seems... oh wait isnt smaller the better ?
everybody can see how easy medlaser is superior to everything except the braindead weapon of lrm/ssrm
why the autoaim longest range weapons need to have the best efficiency ? doesnt make much sense from balance view

[MustrumRidcully]

Orkhepaj, on 30 November 2012 - 06:45 AM, said:

hmm machinggun is clrly the best it seems... oh wait isnt smaller the better ?

You better ask your girlfriend about this.

Quote

everybody can see how easy medlaser is superior to everything except the braindead weapon of lrm/ssrm
why the autoaim longest range weapons need to have the best efficiency ? doesnt make much sense from balance view

One caveat with missiles (and LB-10 X-AC): This table does not account for their clustering effect that will lead to a "hit" often dealing less damage than with other weapons. For example, by this chart, the SSRM2 is less efficient than the SRM2 - but that is a questionable result.

That part is still a "work in progress" for me - how do I account for clustering (and beam durations, and projectile speeds, identical DPS but different ROF). But I find that at least that the single projectile direct-fire weapons (e.g. ballistics, lasers and PPCs) are modelled well enough to already give an estimation of what needs work.

Some people may be surprised that the Gauss Rifle is not the most efficient weapon on this table, and wonder why there were always to many Gauss Cats rather than AC/5 cats, for example. The answer is probably found in the hard point system - for this benchmark, to achieve the damage goal of 160 damage in 20 seconds, I needed 3 AC/5s. Before the Cataphract, this was not possible to achieve.

Also it ignores (though that's something many Gauss Cat users did ignore as well) - you can easily add 1 or 2 medium lasers to a Gauss Cat and raise your damage. In this evaluation, most of the Ballistic weapons basically could go without any extra heat sinks. For some weapons, like the Gauss, that meant there was still a lot of "heat dissipation" left over for an extra weapon. For the cost of 10 shots of your Gauss Rifle, you could have added 1.25 DPS to any non-laser using Gauss Cat without negatively affecting your performance in practice (until you run out of ammo at least...) -. in fact potentially boosting it considerably in brawl engagements (for example, you may have made up the AC/20 damage advantage this way...)

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 30 November 2012 - 07:01 AM.

[M4NTiC0R3X]

Well... i notice when my shots actually hit.. 'cos im not stupid. So but ya newb friendly it up.

[Zerbob]

When the improved netcode comes, plus the EMP effect AND the heat/damage balancing they're working on I'm sure we'll start to see more PPCs. In TT the PPC was used as a long range support weapon because it had a good chance to hit from greater distances. The other benefit? You can fit 2-3 (as many as 4!) on some 'Mech chassis. While some people argue that Gauss is superior that is only taking into account the current game scenario. Have you ever seen a 'Mech hit with 3-4 PPCs? It's bad news.

As for the minimum range, this should be kept because it helps to balance things. The PPC is supposed to be a mid->long range weapon, not something you use up close. That is what the ER PPC is for, and it generates more heat to compensate. In TT the minimum range was a pretty hefty to-hit penalty that made PPCs near useless.

The PPC is an energy based sniper weapon. It requires less tonnage, fewer crit spaces and no ammo. Honestly once the changes are implemented in the coming patches I'll likely start throwing them on a few of my 'Mechs.

[Sajuk Kar]

So does the ER PPC having no minimum range really all boil down to a printing error? Like some people have said? Because how they work in the TT or this game doesn't really make sense. Like how does pumping even more power through a PPC, to give it more range, then somehow make it safe to use up close with its field inhibitor turned off? If anything it should do MORE damage to you if its used under 90m. If its all due to a messed up rulebook, I wouldn't be surprised though.

[T Hawk]

yashmack, on 30 November 2012 - 12:38 AM, said:

I can usually get within 10 meters and still do damage

No, you can't.