91 replies to this topic

[Wolfways]

In Cb i tried the various trial mechs and bought a few different mechs to try with customization, but eventually i found that the only mechs that i liked were the Catapults, especially the K2 (with PPC's). So i mainly played the K2.
I was annoyed that it was hard not to shut down a lot, but thought that would be solved when DHS arrived.

Then DHS arrived and i discovered the K3 (ERPPC's and 20DHS). I thought "that's the mech for me." So i made one and have been playing it since then (with the occasional LRM Cat).

I still shut down way too much though, and after getting really sick of it i decided to try the new mech...the Cataphract. I bought a couple of variants to try out and fitted them with SRM's, ML's, AC2's, AC5's, AC10's, etc.
But eventually i decided that this still didn't "feel right" and i sold them.

But now that i think about it there was a huge difference between the Cataphracts and my K2/K3. They rarely overheated. I never used PPC/ERPPC's or LPL's on them, but the few times i did shutdown it was because i'd been fighting for so long without worrying about the heat that i basically forgot the heat system existed.

So now i think i understand when people say "DHS are fine". They just don't use a heavy mech where your high heat weapons are basically your only weapons.

So now i'm even more convinced that 1.4 heat sinks aren't good enough.
Some mechs just need real DHS...unless PGI intends for canon BT mechs to not exist, and if so i wish they'd tell me.

[Khobai]

Yep pay 250 MC each for your 2.0 goldsinks.

[Rutok]

Great idea. But we should make 2 variants.

1: 2.0 heat sink, available only through mc. Aka "Moneysink"
2. 1.8 heat sink, available after unlocking all pilot skills on all variants and a hefty CBill amount. Aka "Timesink"

[Congzilla]

It sounds like the problem is you are just using bad Cat builds.

[Corvus Antaka]

Sorry wolfways but my cataphract with 21 DHS and 2 ERPPC is just fine. you just need to pace your shots, have decent aim, and watch your heat levels carefully. PPC recycles fast so you can tend to overshoot your heat. Link firing helps too

I still would like to see overall heatcap lowered & overall dissapation brought up slightly....however, with the many cold maps we have now I'm not even sure that would be a good idea anymore.

[Hillslam]

There's been a slow, steady, consistent trend of nerfing Heavy and especially Assault class effectiveness.

DHS, Endo, Ferro all grant more benefit the lower your tonnage goes down, and give the least benefit at the upper ends. This is due to a combination of factors involving slots, tonnage, heat and hardpoints.

XL engines are really the only benefit to Assault class mechs,

If you want any heat dissipation and or fight endurance you're really looking at taking your damage dealing potential down to Heavy or Medium levels. And then you've just traded a ton of mobility for a little more armor and a lot higher repair bills.

Clearly the trend is to make running an Assault a pay-to-maintain proposition.

Edited by Hillslam, 30 November 2012 - 08:26 AM.

[Miken]

Sorry Colonel, but your damage with 2ERPPC and 21DHS so small

[Joseph Mallan]

I whipped up a Cat C-1 with PPCs in the sides and 6 packs in the ears. Runs a touch hot but Peeps are supposed too. Or shouldn't I be able to do that cause PPCs are so much larger than mediums they shouldn't fit in the sides???

[Redshift2k5]

4 large lasers and 20 DHS works great on a K2.

PPC/ERPPC have a notably higher heat generation, though. The issue isn't that DHS are not good enough, it's the PPC that need a buff.

[Taiji]

If you only actually like 1 mech then I expect you'll get bored of this game sooner than most.

I expect you're finding it easier because the arms are only capable of vertical movement which means you don't have to learn much.

Not meaning to imply you have a special problem with learning; it irritates everyone to have to learn.

And DHS are fine at 1.4 because if they were literally double then the whole game would start to suck - certain **** would be OP, obviously.

Edited by Taiji, 30 November 2012 - 08:39 AM.

[Triggerhippy]

DHS were brought down to 1.4 for a very good reason, laserboats in particular the K2 and also the 4p I did the maths a while back, and. With true DHS a k2 with 2 erppcs would be able to stand in the caldera of caustic valley and fire over 20 times before shutting down from heat, also a hunchie 4p would be capable of operating 8 mplas without experiancing heat trouble (the heat bar cool down would be almost at 0 by the time the weapons recycle. This would be a massive game breaker (imagine the artimis bug but 10 times worse and the forums would be aflame (again) in fact I almost guarantee you would have been on here blaming PGI for breaking.g the game and please turn them down. I would have gone for 1.55 personnally instead of 1.4 for the value of DHS but it's still good as is.
The key trouble is people don't use their heat weapons intelligently most of the time , you can't keep massing the fire button and not expect to get hot even with DHS - esspecially when using lplas and erppc's they get bloody hot, it's how they should run
Oh and if you can't run a cataphract with a mix (2x is my fav running ac20 3 med lasers and 2 ssrm2) you might wanna put some practice in. it's an epic mech with a similar punch to an atlas and the agility of a heavy medium

Really, learn to love the ac20 it's your best friend when the chips are down.

[Wolfways]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 30 November 2012 - 08:20 AM, said:

Sorry wolfways but my cataphract with 21 DHS and 2 ERPPC is just fine. you just need to pace your shots, have decent aim, and watch your heat levels carefully. PPC recycles fast so you can tend to overshoot your heat. Link firing helps too

I still would like to see overall heatcap lowered & overall dissapation brought up slightly....however, with the many cold maps we have now I'm not even sure that would be a good idea anymore.

I do pace my shots, when sniping (I also fire linked = 4 shots before shutdown), but when something gets up close to you (i.e. on these small maps that's every match) you need more than two ML's to survive, so i fire my ERPPC's as much as i can.
It's just too easy to shutdown atm.

And i'm hoping for volcanic maps with flowing lava
But high heat weapons shouldn't only be viable on cold maps.

[Fate 6]

Congzilla, on 30 November 2012 - 08:20 AM, said:

It sounds like the problem is you are just using bad Cat builds.

Those builds aren't supposed to be bad in the Mechwarrior universe. Your comment just shows how little you understand of the situation. The build is bad because the heat system+PPC imbalance makes PPC builds terrible when in fact PPCs should be terrifying to play against.

[Franchi]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 November 2012 - 08:31 AM, said:

I whipped up a Cat C-1 with PPCs in the sides and 6 packs in the ears. Runs a touch hot but Peeps are supposed too. Or shouldn't I be able to do that cause PPCs are so much larger than mediums they shouldn't fit in the sides???

Ive been tempted to do this with my c1, so many times I'm sitting somewhere waiting with a perfect sniping shot on someone and only ML's and SRM6's.


OP: For the majority of closed beta i played a ER PPC K2, i played it stock with ER's I played it with nothing but ER PPC's in the arms and I played the trollerpult (back before the arms changed animation you put the weapons in the side) and the hilariously HOT 4xER PPC K2. All of them ran to hot but I contented myself that DHS would make it work.

When we got DHS I ditched the K2 for a variety of SRM/SSRM boats. Just give it up the PPC is DEAD you can beat it all you want but its never going to work.

Edited by Franchi, 30 November 2012 - 08:44 AM.

[Dr Killinger]

That's your opinion. I have two Atlases. One has 3 Large Lasers, 2 AC5s, and 2 SSRM2s. My other one has 2 PPCs, 2 Medium Pulse Lasers, Gauss, and 2 SSRM2s, Both have DHS, and they are a noted improvement over singles, and I think if they were any better, it would allow builds that are too powerful. A key part of Mechwarrior has always been making a build that generates heat at an acceptable rate. If DHS were any better, heat would not be an issue, and that's not Mechwarrior.

My opinion.

Edited by Dr Killinger, 30 November 2012 - 08:46 AM.

[BFalcon]

Triggerhippy, on 30 November 2012 - 08:37 AM, said:

DHS were brought down to 1.4 for a very good reason, laserboats in particular the K2 and also the 4p I did the maths a while back, and. With true DHS a k2 with 2 erppcs would be able to stand in the caldera of caustic valley and fire over 20 times before shutting down from heat, also a hunchie 4p would be capable of operating 8 mplas without experiancing heat trouble (the heat bar cool down would be almost at 0 by the time the weapons recycle. This would be a massive game breaker (imagine the artimis bug but 10 times worse and the forums would be aflame (again) in fact I almost guarantee you would have been on here blaming PGI for breaking.g the game and please turn them down. I would have gone for 1.55 personnally instead of 1.4 for the value of DHS but it's still good as is.
The key trouble is people don't use their heat weapons intelligently most of the time , you can't keep massing the fire button and not expect to get hot even with DHS - esspecially when using lplas and erppc's they get bloody hot, it's how they should run
Oh and if you can't run a cataphract with a mix (2x is my fav running ac20 3 med lasers and 2 ssrm2) you might wanna put some practice in. it's an epic mech with a similar punch to an atlas and the agility of a heavy medium

Really, learn to love the ac20 it's your best friend when the chips are down.

Was that before or after they corrected the MLas heat bugs though?

[Wolfways]

Taiji, on 30 November 2012 - 08:36 AM, said:

If you only actually like 1 mech then I expect you'll get bored of this game sooner than most.

I expect you're finding it easier because the arms are only capable of vertical movement which means you don't have to learn much.

Not meaning to imply you have a special problem with learning; it irritates everyone to have to learn.

And DHS are fine at 1.4 because if they were literally double then the whole game would start to suck - certain **** would be OP, obviously.

lol no i enjoy the game (apart from the jenners and streakcats ) and i only like the K2 because i like symmetrical chicken-walkers (K2/K3, Mad Dog, Timberwolf, etc)
I've tried to ignore what mech i'm in and concentrate only on the weapons, but i just can't do it

[Deadoon]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 30 November 2012 - 08:20 AM, said:

Sorry wolfways but my cataphract with 21 DHS and 2 ERPPC is just fine. you just need to pace your shots, have decent aim, and watch your heat levels carefully. PPC recycles fast so you can tend to overshoot your heat. Link firing helps too

I still would like to see overall heatcap lowered & overall dissapation brought up slightly....however, with the many cold maps we have now I'm not even sure that would be a good idea anymore.

A k3 is should be able to fire it's 2 erppc more often than a k2 is capable of firing it's ppc and stay cool. after all a erppc only generates 50% more heat. 2 ppc generate 20 heat, for 20 heatsinks, admirable and effective, to some extent. 2 erppc will generate 30 heat for effectively 40 heatsinks. 3/4 the ammount of heat compared to heatsinks. These are the table top variables mind you.

In mw:o 2 ppc generate 18 heat, woo a full 10% less and 20 heatsinks, ok fine close enough. 2 erppc generate 26 heat, still less but still pretty intense, however instead of that 40 heatsinks we only get a mere 28. Wait a moment we generate a full 17% higher heat per heatsink effectiveness? Oh and this doesn't even factor in that armor is doubled, so we have to shoot twice to do the same amount of effective damage, thus making our mechs run much, much, hotter than they should.


That is one of the major issues, double armor, not so much increased or decreased heat generation.

Edited by Deadoon, 30 November 2012 - 08:47 AM.

[Odanan]

Wolfways, on 30 November 2012 - 08:12 AM, said:

In Cb i tried the various trial mechs and bought a few different mechs to try with customization, but eventually i found that the only mechs that i liked were the Catapults, especially the K2 (with PPC's). So i mainly played the K2.
I was annoyed that it was hard not to shut down a lot, but thought that would be solved when DHS arrived.

Then DHS arrived and i discovered the K3 (ERPPC's and 20DHS). I thought "that's the mech for me." So i made one and have been playing it since then (with the occasional LRM Cat).

I still shut down way too much though, and after getting really sick of it i decided to try the new mech...the Cataphract. I bought a couple of variants to try out and fitted them with SRM's, ML's, AC2's, AC5's, AC10's, etc.
But eventually i decided that this still didn't "feel right" and i sold them.

But now that i think about it there was a huge difference between the Cataphracts and my K2/K3. They rarely overheated. I never used PPC/ERPPC's or LPL's on them, but the few times i did shutdown it was because i'd been fighting for so long without worrying about the heat that i basically forgot the heat system existed.

So now i think i understand when people say "DHS are fine". They just don't use a heavy mech where your high heat weapons are basically your only weapons.

So now i'm even more convinced that 1.4 heat sinks aren't good enough.
Some mechs just need real DHS...unless PGI intends for canon BT mechs to not exist, and if so i wish they'd tell me.

This. ^

[Wolfways]

Fate 6, on 30 November 2012 - 08:40 AM, said:

Those builds aren't supposed to be bad in the Mechwarrior universe. Your comment just shows how little you understand of the situation. The build is bad because the heat system+PPC imbalance makes PPC builds terrible when in fact PPCs should be terrifying to play against.

Exactly.
I don't think "Pick different weapons" should be the only option.

Franchi, on 30 November 2012 - 08:42 AM, said:

When we got DHS I ditched the K2 for a variety of SRM/SSRM boats. Just give it up the PPC is DEAD you can beat it all you want but its never going to work.

I will...as soon as i get my Mad Dog