91 replies to this topic

[SI The Joker]

A Double Heat Sink is not something that belongs on every config... which seems to be sorely lost on a number of pilots.

They want an XL engine... they want endo... they want FF... and then they want to load up on DHS too along with huge amounts of weaponry so they can fire endlessly and never overheat. Guys - sometimes single heat sinks make more sense, period.

You need to decide what's important for your play style and make necessary compromises as appropriate. THAT is the dynamic that makes configs so unique and the game so much fun.

In one match I can face a 4 ER LL catapult who never overheats... he's a force to be reckoned with as he's built his config well and fires his weapons intelligently. In the next match I can face the same mech who overheats every other shot and thereby becoming fodder for LRMs and light mechs because either the config was inferior (too much engine, not enough sinks or whatever) or because of pilot skill - either way, it's a dynamic that makes this game great.

DHS are pretty much fine the way they are. At 2.0 it would be total overkill and no one would overheat ever... which would totally break the mechanics of the game.

[Odanan]

Fate 6, on 30 November 2012 - 08:40 AM, said:

Those builds aren't supposed to be bad in the Mechwarrior universe. Your comment just shows how little you understand of the situation. The build is bad because the heat system+PPC imbalance makes PPC builds terrible when in fact PPCs should be terrifying to play against.

Agreed. You can't just dump all the stock Battletech variants for the sake of "balance".

PPCs are the best long range weapon in TT. Medium Lasers are the best short-medium range weapon in TT (OK, maybe too good).
In MWO, Medium Lasers are still fine (as you can boat them), but PPCs are terrible.

[Joseph Mallan]

Franchi, on 30 November 2012 - 08:42 AM, said:

Ive been tempted to do this with my c1, so many times I'm sitting somewhere waiting with a perfect sniping shot on someone and only ML's and SRM6's.


OP: For the majority of closed beta i played a ER PPC K2, i played it stock with ER's I played it with nothing but ER PPC's in the arms and I played the trollerpult (back before the arms changed animation you put the weapons in the side) and the hilariously HOT 4xER PPC K2. All of them ran to hot but I contented myself that DHS would make it work.

When we got DHS I ditched the K2 for a variety of SRM/SSRM boats. Just give it up the PPC is DEAD you can beat it all you want but its never going to work.

It works out pretty good. Caustic is a drag of course, but it runs pretty good. The armor buff make the PPCs seem weak, but I got a kill or three last night using just the PPCs. Sure I stole two of them, but How was I to know the Atlas I was firing on was already light on back armor without hitting the R!

[Lefty Lucy]

Triggerhippy, on 30 November 2012 - 08:37 AM, said:

DHS were brought down to 1.4 for a very good reason, laserboats in particular the K2 and also the 4p I did the maths a while back, and. With true DHS a k2 with 2 erppcs would be able to stand in the caldera of caustic valley and fire over 20 times before shutting down from heat, also a hunchie 4p would be capable of operating 8 mplas without experiancing heat trouble (the heat bar cool down would be almost at 0 by the time the weapons recycle. This would be a massive game breaker (imagine the artimis bug but 10 times worse and the forums would be aflame (again) in fact I almost guarantee you would have been on here blaming PGI for breaking.g the game and please turn them down. I would have gone for 1.55 personnally instead of 1.4 for the value of DHS but it's still good as is.
The key trouble is people don't use their heat weapons intelligently most of the time , you can't keep massing the fire button and not expect to get hot even with DHS - esspecially when using lplas and erppc's they get bloody hot, it's how they should run
Oh and if you can't run a cataphract with a mix (2x is my fav running ac20 3 med lasers and 2 ssrm2) you might wanna put some practice in. it's an epic mech with a similar punch to an atlas and the agility of a heavy medium

Really, learn to love the ac20 it's your best friend when the chips are down.

You did your math wrong. Even when MPL were bugged to generate .75 their true heat, you couldn't run 8 of them heat neutral with 2.0 DHS. In a K2 with 25 "true" DHS and 2x ERPPC (which is not actually possible due to critical space restrictions), you have 55 heat capacity, 5 hps cooling, and 8.66 hps generation, giving you about 15 seconds to shut down, which is 5 volleys. That is *not* in the caldera on caustic.

[Deadoon]

SI The Joker, on 30 November 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:

A Double Heat Sink is not something that belongs on every config... which seems to be sorely lost on a number of pilots.

Sorry , but canon disagrees with you entirely;

Quote

The benefits of doubled heat dissipation capacity usually outweigh the drawbacks and by 3058 almost every 'Mech model was equipped or retrofitted with double heat sinks.

Bold part is what we are doing right now, retrofits, retrofits everywhere.

The thing about double heatsinks and being "unbalanced" is that tjey are star league era technology and was recently remade. Basically by saying that they do not belong on every config, you violate an entire fact from the BT/MW universe.

Every person that retrofits their mech with double heatsinks is doing what you are expected to do by canon. You got the money or resources to equip them? You do. You don't have those resources? You save up until you do have them.

Edited by Deadoon, 30 November 2012 - 09:00 AM.

[Mister Blastman]

Vassago Rain, on 30 November 2012 - 08:13 AM, said:

2.0 goldsinks confirmed for premium content later.

trololol!

[Joseph Mallan]

Deadoon, That is an acceptable in game logic explanation.

[Deadoon]

Joseph Mallan, on 30 November 2012 - 09:00 AM, said:

Deadoon, That is an acceptable in game logic explanation.

Game logic should be below the actual universes rules and expectations.

TT is an attempt to make the logic of the universe into a game, but balanced it in an odd manner.
The MW games balance it in a different manner, but they should not be screwing with fundamental truths.

Edited by Deadoon, 30 November 2012 - 09:03 AM.

[Garth Erlam]

Vassago Rain, on 30 November 2012 - 08:13 AM, said:

2.0 goldsinks confirmed for premium content later.

Always glad to see your helpful contributions to threads.

[Vermaxx]

Every build I've done has benefitted from DHS over SHS simply due to saved weight and increased dissipation.

Yes, if you want to sock two or three times the weight, you get far more out of singles. I do not want to spend that weight when I can have more gun.

Even if they get around to fixing engine DHS and making everything 1.4 (or probably more like 1.7), DHS still round out better than singles. You NEED to get to Elite in the mech you want to use, because the 15% heat buff is mandatory. With that factored in, every build I've mathed has come out to average 1.9 per sink.

They gave us teaser DHS and made us work to get the bonus, which is understandable because they WANT the XP system to be integral and necessary. They don't want people just ignoring XP and grinding out missions for CB. I'm sure someone will say the XP system degrades skill by encouraging people to grind, and then buffing the people who DO grind. However, the last time I won a game I made a ton more XP than losing, so the people who claim higher skill (and are probably on teams) should be swimming in enough XP to level the playing field and buy all the efficiencies.

[Mister Blastman]

SI The Joker, on 30 November 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:

DHS are pretty much fine the way they are. At 2.0 it would be total overkill and no one would overheat ever... which would totally break the mechanics of the game.

You are suggesting a 10 - 15% increase in heat efficiency would be game breaking? Joker, I realize you ran ADL for years and did a fine job at it (Thanks for all the fun! ), but I must respectfully disagree here.

The lighter mechs won't see much benefit from a 1.4 -> 2.0 increase in external sinks. The heavier mechs /will/ see the benefit--but it won't be great. Play with the numbers a bit. You'll see what I see. We're not talking big gains. Very modest ones at best. Definitely not what I'd call game breaking. Remember, the engine heatsinks are already 2.0. It won't be a huge jump at this point going from 1.4 to 2.0... as long as you don't think of the 1.4 to 2.0 percentage increase, but instead take a combined percentage increase of...

10 internal 2.0 DHS + however many external 1.4 -> 2.0 DHS.

Seriously. Play with the numbers a bit. You'll be shocked at how little a difference it will make but it might be just enough to give some of the heavier weapons more playability in the larger mechs.

Edited by Mister Blastman, 30 November 2012 - 09:05 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

SI The Joker, on 30 November 2012 - 08:50 AM, said:

A Double Heat Sink is not something that belongs on every config... which seems to be sorely lost on a number of pilots.

They want an XL engine... they want endo... they want FF... and then they want to load up on DHS too along with huge amounts of weaponry so they can fire endlessly and never overheat. Guys - sometimes single heat sinks make more sense, period.

You need to decide what's important for your play style and make necessary compromises as appropriate. THAT is the dynamic that makes configs so unique and the game so much fun.

In one match I can face a 4 ER LL catapult who never overheats... he's a force to be reckoned with as he's built his config well and fires his weapons intelligently. In the next match I can face the same mech who overheats every other shot and thereby becoming fodder for LRMs and light mechs because either the config was inferior (too much engine, not enough sinks or whatever) or because of pilot skill - either way, it's a dynamic that makes this game great.

DHS are pretty much fine the way they are. At 2.0 it would be total overkill and no one would overheat ever... which would totally break the mechanics of the game.

Yeah, uhh, about this...

Unless you read the really bad novels, almost every mech in use by 3050 is equipped with dubs, and will use modern tech. Normal sinks only exist on mechs that don't even worry about heat in the first place, like gauss snipers, or very light mechs that have barely any weapons.

For god's sake, they eventually outfit the 500 year old macross mechs with all the modern gear.

[locilocisu]

Fate 6, on 30 November 2012 - 08:40 AM, said:

Those builds aren't supposed to be bad in the Mechwarrior universe. Your comment just shows how little you understand of the situation. The build is bad because the heat system+PPC imbalance makes PPC builds terrible when in fact PPCs should be terrifying to play against.

PPC will be terrifying once the dev implemented the shutdown chance due to the "EMP" effect of PPCs.

[Deadoon]

Garth Erlam, on 30 November 2012 - 09:03 AM, said:

Always glad to see your helpful contributions to threads.

Frankly he makes more sense than the improper balanced doubles currently.

Maybe you guys should stop having such selective hearing on community requests, huh?

Mister Blastman, on 30 November 2012 - 09:03 AM, said:

You are suggesting a 10 - 15% increase in heat efficiency would be game breaking? Joker, I realize you ran ADL for years and did a fine job at it (Thanks for all the fun! ), but I must respectfully disagree here.

The lighter mechs won't see much benefit from a 1.4 -> 2.0 increase in external sinks. The heavier mechs /will/ see the benefit--but it won't be great. Play with the numbers a bit. You'll see what I see. We're not talking big gains. Very modest ones at best. Definitely not what I'd call game breaking. Remember, the engine heatsinks are already 2.0. It won't be a huge jump at this point going from 1.4 to 2.0.

Actually, it seems they nerfed engine heatsinks as well.

[Taiji]

Wolfways, on 30 November 2012 - 08:45 AM, said:

lol no i enjoy the game (apart from the jenners and streakcats ) and i only like the K2 because i like symmetrical chicken-walkers (K2/K3, Mad Dog, Timberwolf, etc)
I've tried to ignore what mech i'm in and concentrate only on the weapons, but i just can't do it

Ummm what can I say?

I can't imagine being stuck in a mech for aesthetic reasons.

I'm sorry, I really don't know what to suggest!

[SI The Joker]

Deadoon, on 30 November 2012 - 08:58 AM, said:

Sorry , but canon disagrees with you entirely;


Bold part is what we are doing right now, retrofits, retrofits everywhere.

The thing about double heatsinks and being "unbalanced" is that tjey are star league era technology and was recently remade. Basically by saying that they do not belong on every config, you violate an entire fact from the BT/MW universe.

Every person that retrofits their mech with double heatsinks is doing what you are expected to do by canon. You got the money or resources to equip them? You do. You don't have those resources? You save up until you do have them.

Wow, you clearly don't read well. I said nothing about them not belonging on a mech from a canon perspective - that was you who said that. I said they don't belong on every config; a config being a config in this game which is what we are playing and not the TT game.

Bottom line is if you have 7 slots and 7 tons to spare, it makes infinite more sense to use single heat sinks to fill those spots than double heat sinks:

6 slots = 2 DHS = 4 SHS
6 slots = 6 SHS

Hmmmm? You're telling me this doesn't make sense? Is not 6 greater than 4? Or have I landed in bizarro land where math is reversed?

[Vassago Rain]

Garth Erlam, on 30 November 2012 - 09:03 AM, said:

Always glad to see your helpful contributions to threads.

Why don't you and your company do your jobs, instead of fighting us on the forum?

[Mister Blastman]

Deadoon, on 30 November 2012 - 09:05 AM, said:

Maybe you guys should stop having such selective hearing on community requests, huh?
Actually, it seems they nerfed engine heatsinks as well.

Proof?

[Tickdoff Tank]

Rutok, on 30 November 2012 - 08:19 AM, said:

Great idea. But we should make 2 variants.

1: 2.0 heat sink, available only through mc. Aka "Moneysink"
2. 1.8 heat sink, available after unlocking all pilot skills on all variants and a hefty CBill amount. Aka "Timesink"

1: 2.0001 heatsinks bought by MC
2. 2.00 heatsinks bought by c-bills.

[Deadoon]

SI The Joker, on 30 November 2012 - 09:06 AM, said:

Wow, you clearly don't read well. I said nothing about them not belonging on a mech from a canon perspective - that was you who said that. I said they don't belong on every config; a config being a config in this game which is what we are playing and not the TT game.

Bottom line is if you have 7 slots and 7 tons to spare, it makes infinite more sense to use single heat sinks to fill those spots than double heat sinks:

6 slots = 2 DHS = 4 SHS
6 slots = 6 SHS

Hmmmm? You're telling me this doesn't make sense? Is not 6 greater than 4? Or have I landed in bizarro land where math is reversed?

You use 4 more tons to get that extra 2 heat.
Drop your ferro or even endo and use a full 5 tons on doubles.

Also you forgot to calc in engine heatsinks as well. A build using doubles has a minimum heat dissipation of 20, single heatsinks you need to add a full 10 to benefit from an equal heat dissipation. This is a full 10 tons of extra weight. While if you use double heatsinks you can bring it up to 7 tons saved and 6 more heat dispersion.