91 replies to this topic

[the Gingerbread Man]

Garth Erlam, on 30 November 2012 - 09:03 AM, said:

Always glad to see your helpful contributions to threads.

Can you honestly blame him, when the community manager does the same thing?

[Vassago Rain]

Mister Blastman, on 30 November 2012 - 09:08 AM, said:

Proof?

>I can core a fatlas in 3 seconds with truedubs, so only poordubs for you!
>implement only engine dubs, and they're truedubs.
>uhh, well, uhh. We'll fix it.
>implement poordubs outside the engine, but truedubs remain in the engine.
>no one can core a fatlas in 3 seconds with their jenners, despite jenners almost exclusively running truedubs, since they commonly only take the engine sinks.
>no, you still can't have truedubs. It would make assaults and heavies too powerful!

They made a big deal out of something that wasn't even real, for reasons we will never know. We will never, ever know why they did this, and why they don't just fix it. We will NEVER know.

Everything points to more Bioware. We're right. Math is wrong. You're wrong. This is how it's gonna be. WE ARE RIGHT!
Wait, where did everybody go?

[Wolfways]

locilocisu, on 30 November 2012 - 09:05 AM, said:

PPC will be terrifying once the dev implemented the shutdown chance due to the "EMP" effect of PPCs.

Shutdown? I doubt they'd do that. I think i've read about maybe UI flicker...

Tbh i wouldn't want PPC's to shutdown mechs. There's nothing worse than losing control of your mech (see Streakcats).
But PPC's should hit like an AC10 maybe. They do kinetic and energy damage after all.

[MuonNeutrino]

SI The Joker, on 30 November 2012 - 09:06 AM, said:

Bottom line is if you have 7 slots and 7 tons to spare, it makes infinite more sense to use single heat sinks to fill those spots than double heat sinks:

6 slots = 2 DHS = 4 SHS
6 slots = 6 SHS

Hmmmm? You're telling me this doesn't make sense? Is not 6 greater than 4? Or have I landed in bizarro land where math is reversed?

You're forgetting something here - the engine heat sinks. Since you can't mix double and single heat sinks, you're not talking about the difference between 2 DHS and 6 SHS, you're talking about the difference between *12* DHS and *16* SHS, which goes right back in the other direction. Face it, it's extremely rare for it to actually be beneficial to use SHS over true DHS. Only in some truly extreme cases of very low critical slot availability do SHS work out better.

[SI The Joker]

Mister Blastman, on 30 November 2012 - 09:03 AM, said:

You are suggesting a 10 - 15% increase in heat efficiency would be game breaking? Joker, I realize you ran ADL for years and did a fine job at it (Thanks for all the fun! ), but I must respectfully disagree here.

The lighter mechs won't see much benefit from a 1.4 -> 2.0 increase in external sinks. The heavier mechs /will/ see the benefit--but it won't be great. Play with the numbers a bit. You'll see what I see. We're not talking big gains. Very modest ones at best. Definitely not what I'd call game breaking. Remember, the engine heatsinks are already 2.0. It won't be a huge jump at this point going from 1.4 to 2.0... as long as you don't think of the 1.4 to 2.0 percentage increase, but instead take a combined percentage increase of...

10 internal 2.0 DHS + however many external 1.4 -> 2.0 DHS.

Seriously. Play with the numbers a bit. You'll be shocked at how little a difference it will make but it might be just enough to give some of the heavier weapons more playability in the larger mechs.

Aww thanks Mr. Blastman. I really wish we could do something like ADL again with this game. (API, PGI?) I'd be all over that in a heartbeat.

Isn't a .6 increase to the 1.4 sinks is a 30% increase, unless I have it wrong? (2.0 * .3 = .6)

I totally get your point here - but when I see how much the .1 damage boost (which was great, btw) for LRMs added... a .6 increase on heat sinks really gets me thinking. With regards to light mechs... that's insane! My Jenner runs around with 2 streaks and 4 MLAS.... overheats right now are rare - and I use DHS. Increase my heat efficiency by 30% and watch the forum posts roll in.

I'll do some more testing on big configs tonight and see what I get; but from my playing so far DHS are good for some configs and for others, it just makes more sense to use single sinks. What really sucks is paying in cbills to learn that, but that's just how it goes, I guess.

[Wolfways]

Taiji, on 30 November 2012 - 09:05 AM, said:

Ummm what can I say?

I can't imagine being stuck in a mech for aesthetic reasons.

I'm sorry, I really don't know what to suggest!

lol i'm a lost cause. I just "know" what i'm piloting and if i don't like the mech i don't like it.
Weird i know....i don't even want to see it in 3rd person

[LaserAngel]

I don't really see PPCs as very viable until the EMP and knockdown effects are implemented. Maybe they'll increase the projectile velocity too.

[Lefty Lucy]

SI The Joker, on 30 November 2012 - 09:17 AM, said:

Aww thanks Mr. Blastman. I really wish we could do something like ADL again with this game. (API, PGI?) I'd be all over that in a heartbeat.

Isn't a .6 increase to the 1.4 sinks is a 30% increase, unless I have it wrong? (2.0 * .3 = .6)

I totally get your point here - but when I see how much the .1 damage boost (which was great, btw) for LRMs added... a .6 increase on heat sinks really gets me thinking. With regards to light mechs... that's insane! My Jenner runs around with 2 streaks and 4 MLAS.... overheats right now are rare - and I use DHS. Increase my heat efficiency by 30% and watch the forum posts roll in.

I'll do some more testing on big configs tonight and see what I get; but from my playing so far DHS are good for some configs and for others, it just makes more sense to use single sinks. What really sucks is paying in cbills to learn that, but that's just how it goes, I guess.

Let's say you have 15 DHS total, 10 of them in your engine. That means you're cooling (20+7)/10= 2.7 HPS. With "true" DHS, you'd be cooling 3.0 HPS. This represents a .3 increase in cooling rate, or a .3/2.7*100%= 11.1% increase in cooling efficiency.

[Vermaxx]

Vassago, I really agree that the devs need to post less if they're just going to sink to our level.

But, you aren't helping things by openly insulting them while still using their product. And if you AREN'T still using it, why are you still posting?

The reasons for not giving us true doubles are sketchy. Would you have preferred they said: "We didn't like it, so you aren't getting it?" Essentially that is why they didn't do it. I don't love it, but what can I do? I can play the product or quit. They wouldn't refund me so I might as well get my money's worth.

There is no benefit to arguing with the devs. They are doing things their own way and they have clearly demonstrated a different vision than the community. The only constructive things to do are live with it or leave due to it. They're clearly not going to cave, so why is this still such a giant ragefest?

[hornet331]

the Gingerbread Man, on 30 November 2012 - 09:13 AM, said:

Can you honestly blame him, when the community manager does the same thing?

oh man.. it burns...

[BigJim]

I have several builds that use Large pulse and Medium pulses together, as the only weapons - They do fine with DHS as they are.

Would I like more? Yes, but only because it would let me mount even more weapons and forget even more about heat, not because I truly think it's needed.

Edited by BigJim, 30 November 2012 - 09:25 AM.

[Vassago Rain]

Vermaxx, on 30 November 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

Vassago, I really agree that the devs need to post less if they're just going to sink to our level.

But, you aren't helping things by openly insulting them while still using their product. And if you AREN'T still using it, why are you still posting?

The reasons for not giving us true doubles are sketchy. Would you have preferred they said: "We didn't like it, so you aren't getting it?" Essentially that is why they didn't do it. I don't love it, but what can I do? I can play the product or quit. They wouldn't refund me so I might as well get my money's worth.

There is no benefit to arguing with the devs. They are doing things their own way and they have clearly demonstrated a different vision than the community. The only constructive things to do are live with it or leave due to it. They're clearly not going to cave, so why is this still such a giant ragefest?

I'm not insulting anyone.
The community agrees with what I say. That's why everybody was so willing to jump on the goldsink jokes.

We have no faith left that they're not doing this to prepare for premium sinks.
I paid money for this...this...whatever it is. Deathmatch capture the box game. I'm a customer.

I have the right to tell them to shut up, and get back to work. Trolling the forum when you should be working on your mess of a game, eh? No, you're not. Go fix some bugs.

This is how reality works.

[SteelPaladin]

Vermaxx, on 30 November 2012 - 09:22 AM, said:

The reasons for not giving us true doubles are sketchy. Would you have preferred they said: "We didn't like it, so you aren't getting it?" Essentially that is why they didn't do it. I don't love it, but what can I do? I can play the product or quit. They wouldn't refund me so I might as well get my money's worth.

Personally, I would have preferred that, yes. I still would have thought it was a BS reason to do it, but I could at least respect them for being upfront and honest.

The massive hyperbole that they gave as their initial reasoning, combined w/the later discovery of true DHS in the engine (meaning that the aformentioned Jenner "3-second killer" was seeing almost no penalty from 1.4 HS ANYWAY), basically just came off as an insult to the intelligence of the community. I imagine it was completely unintentional (as you say, they thought that answer would go more smoothly), but that's the way it came out nonetheless.

Nothing gets a person more frothing than being told it's raining when you know damn well rain don't come that warm.

Edited by SteelPaladin, 30 November 2012 - 09:38 AM.

[One Medic Army]

DHS are fine as-is so long as you're not using ERLarges, PPCs, or ERPPCs.
Which I think points to those weapons needing a buff.

I run SRMs, AC/20, medium lasers, small lasers, normal larges, pretty much every weapon aside from the above using the current DHS and have no serious overheating issues.
One of the big things I do differently, is I make sure I always have one weapons system I can hold down the trigger on and loose heat while firing it alone.

[Vassago Rain]

One Medic Army, on 30 November 2012 - 09:40 AM, said:

DHS are fine as-is so long as you're not using ERLarges, PPCs, or ERPPCs.
Which I think points to those weapons needing a buff.

I run SRMs, AC/20, medium lasers, small lasers, normal larges, pretty much every weapon aside from the above using the current DHS and have no serious overheating issues.
One of the big things I do differently, is I make sure I always have one weapons system I can hold down the trigger on and loose heat while firing it alone.

More like you need dubs for most of those weapons.

Because ERs and many others we're sure to get in the future? All those were made with the intention of dubs being in effect. if you're not gonna let us sink fast enough, we won't use the weapons, and your decision to add them - even your decision to set the game in 3050, rather than 3025 - come into question.

If they wanted 'heat management,' and 'masterful piloting with hardcore economics,' why didn't they set the game during the era when all of that was in effect? 3025 is called 'real man's battletech' for a reason. It's HARDCORE. Meanwhile, 3050 has clanners with double range, stronger pulse lasers, and IS lights that never worry about heat.

[Bubba Wilkins]

In this thread, a lot of people who apparently don't know that we already have 2.0 DHS in engines.

Seriously, the average build with DHS is close to a 1.8-1.7 average. A flat 2.0 isn't going to be that big of an impact but will keep the big energy weapons viable.

[Lefty Lucy]

Bubba Wilkins, on 30 November 2012 - 09:53 AM, said:

In this thread, a lot of people who apparently don't know that we already have 2.0 DHS in engines.

Seriously, the average build with DHS is close to a 1.8-1.7 average. A flat 2.0 isn't going to be that big of an impact but will keep the big energy weapons viable.

It will keep non-ER/Pulse large energy weapons viable for mechs that *should* be working well under SHS.

[MaddMaxx]

SteelPaladin, on 30 November 2012 - 09:37 AM, said:

Personally, I would have preferred that, yes. I still would have thought it was a BS reason to do it, but I could at least respect them for being upfront and honest.

The massive hyperbole that they gave as their initial reasoning, combined w/the later discovery of true DHS in the engine (meaning that the aformentioned Jenner "3-second killer" was seeing almost no penalty from 1.4 HS ANYWAY), basically just came off as an insult to the intelligence of the community. I imagine it was completely unintentional (as you say, they thought that answer would go more smoothly), but that's the way it came out nonetheless.

Nothing gets a person more frothing than being told it's raining when you know damn well rain don't come that warm.

And the damnest thing about that is, when they do, or should earn that respect, they NEVER get it. There is always some Troll who says something totally asinine, that thinks it is cute, and then the Forum bandwagon starts to fill up, yet again.

What is the saying. Respect is earned, not given. Well I personally feel "we" the Community have not even come close to earning the Dev's true respect. A lot of growing up has to be done around here before that should even be a consideration.

If you don't think that is true, then Welcome to the Forums. You may want to start in the New user Help section...

Edited by MaddMaxx, 30 November 2012 - 09:59 AM.

[Mercules]

Vassago Rain, on 30 November 2012 - 09:26 AM, said:

I paid money for this...this...whatever it is. Deathmatch capture the box game. I'm a customer.

I have the right to tell them to shut up, and get back to work.

No you don't. You pay the company. Company hires managers. Managers get to tell employees to get to work and only within guidelines. They also get to tell obnoxious customers to get the hell out and not come back.

[FutureCider]

MaddMaxx, on 30 November 2012 - 09:58 AM, said:

And the damnest thing about that is, when they do, or should earn that respect, they NEVER get it. There is always some Troll who says something totally asinine, that thinks it is cute, and then the Forum bandwagon starts to fill up, yet again.

What is the saying. Respect is earned, not given. Well I personally feel "we" the Community have not even come close to earning the Dev's true respect. A lot of growing up has to be done around here before that should even be a consideration.

If you don't think that is true, then Welcome to the Forums. You may want to start in the New user Help section...

Name some things they have done that deserved respect(that were not bugs due to their incompetence).
Even if you do, it is largely overshadowed by the problems plaguing this game. Netcode is still ****, bugs that took forever to fix, random tweaking of weapon values(UAC5 jamming), or even their not so secret attempt to cash grab by increasing mechbays from 300 to 1000.

Honestly, its more as if they lost our respect. Just look at Garth's replies to Vassago.