118 replies to this topic

[Creed Buhallin]

DV^McKenna, on 10 May 2012 - 06:10 AM, said:

It will be interesting to see though, if it has gone too far the other way and removed long range from play, time will tell.I think the main concern at least from LRM users is that their current range, puts them into a dangerously close position to the main battle, they will be easily reachable and perhaps too much so, that there is simply not enough ground between LRM range and Laser/AC 10+ Range which significantly disadvantages LRM's.

I don't see anything wrong with this. LRMs are going to have a huge advantage in indirect fire. With a good scout and spotter, they're going to be able to deliver damage from safety in a way that no other weapon can really match. That may come at the expense if being vulnerable to someone closing on you - which also feels right. So what's the answer to that? Escorts. Someone hanging back to cover the artillery and help deal with fast strikers coming through, and take out scouts trying to spot you for counterbattery fire. Or maybe just a more balanced loadout - something more like a Zeus or Orion that contributes some LRMs, but doesn't rely on them as heavily as a Catapult or Archer would.

I think it's going to be very important to judge how these things play in full matches, not theorycrafted 1v1 min-max number crunching. The devs seem to be going out of their way to encourage team tactics in the game. "I can sit here and lob LRMs at you for five minutes while you're helplessly trying to close range with me and you can't touch me" is not team, and it's just barely tactics.

[AlanEsh]

Kudzu, on 10 May 2012 - 08:03 AM, said:

Angelicon, on 10 May 2012 - 07:35 AM, said:

If the OP nature of clan tech from the TT game is thrown directly into this game, you won't see anyone but diehard IS roleplayers using Inner Sphere tech after about 2 days. I don't particularly want clan weapons to be that much better, they're going to be hard as hell to balance and they'll instantly obsolete IS weapons.

Actually, if you balance out the teams it won't be that bad, especially since they're making maps that will negate a lot of the clans range advantage.

No, I'm talking about the fact that every min/maxer out there wants more damage for less tonnage. Who isn't going to upgrade weapons, heatsinks, etc as soon as they see an improvement or advantage for their mech setups? Obsoleting weaponry and equipment isn't related to balancing teams.

/edit -- for some on topic...

Creed Buhallin, on 10 May 2012 - 09:12 AM, said:

"I can sit here and lob LRMs at you for five minutes while you're helplessly trying to close range with me and you can't touch me" is not team, and it's just barely tactics.

And who is suggesting this be the preferred design? I personally think the LRM range envelope a bit narrow. I hope it plays better than it feels at first blush. But I'm not looking for what you are suggesting either, so let's not pick extremes as examples.

Creed Buhallin, on 10 May 2012 - 09:12 AM, said:

I think it's going to be very important to judge how these things play in full matches

Yep.

Edited by Angelicon, 10 May 2012 - 09:22 AM.

[HeIIequin]

I never had a problem with the ranges in the demos. It was a small map with tight pathways with IS tech. As others have said, I think the indirect fire nature of lrm's will MORE than make up for a lack of super 1000-1200m range. And when the extended range & clan tech comes around, lrm's look to be faring pretty well.

If I found anything strange about the demos, it was with how fluid mech movement seemed to be. Almost too much so. Besides the light mechs, the acceleration and handling of the bigger mechs seemed to be super smooth & fast. I don't know why. Maybe it's just me.

[Aegis Kleais]

Mason Grimm, on 10 May 2012 - 07:07 AM, said:

... Wait, did you see that ER Ultra Moar Laz0r Blast0rz he just fired at us?...

et tu, Grimm?

[LordKnightFandragon]

OP, the vids are up in your face brawl like to give us EYE CANDY!!! Its just to show us what the game looks like and give us a taste of what we will be getting into. Kinda like a demo, I am sure the ranges will be as they should in the normal game...it WONT be like WoT in sure....Dont worry, it will get better +D

[Ulric Kell]

Great stuff from Bryan and I'm very pleased with the ranges. Truer to TT/Canon and less true to the MW games of the past. I think we also get a good deal of people still equating MW to an FPS and not quite grasping that this game will be far more of a sim than an FPS of MW2/3/4.

[LordKnightFandragon]

StandingCow, on 10 May 2012 - 06:11 AM, said:

Think it is gonna take people a little while to learn they can't just rush in.

Well, World of Tanks has been out a year and still people havent figure it out....RPGs like Eq2, WoW and Aion have been out far longer then that and still people opt to take that option...RUsh in, kill the dungeon as quickly as we cant, Die horribly because we CANT DO IT TAHT WAY...but lets keep trying....MWO will be no different....it will be..LETS ZERG THE MIDDLE AND CAP THE BASE!!!!!! *3 minutes later* "Defeat, All Mechs Destroyed" 2-12 defeat.....People will NEVER learn rushing doenst work...

[tyrone dunkirk]

Be wary, ye travelers of the forums... this place... it reeks of Troll...

[Jericho917]

Mr Styx, on 10 May 2012 - 01:42 AM, said:

ER tech is only another 50 m

Er tech is another 30 per range level so 30 60 90 (short med long).... and thats just for medium im pretty sure its more than that on ER large lasers.

[tyrone dunkirk]

Wow, the Forest Colony map sounds more layered and well thought out than 90 percent of all the maps I've played in the last 10 years

[PANZERBUNNY]

One can hope for dymanic goals.

ie. Go to this location. Blow the bunker. Destroy escaping vehicles that are attempting to reach another safe base. NPC arty fire rains down on your positions to cover their retreat.

I would like to see DYNAMIC triggered goals and effects that distract people from the simple toe to toe slugfests that will ultimately occur.

Don't tell me this isn't a single player game and beyond the scope of mechwarrior online or I will laugh this game off my "watch" list.

[Iron Horse]

Mr Styx, on 10 May 2012 - 01:28 AM, said:

It strikes me in those IGN vids that range is a problem,a big fing problem,from those vids it looks like to me just a slobberknocker, IE, the range is so short in respect of the mech there is very little room for tactics,apart from a brawl.
its just a who stays up wins,
well from the extremely short range brawls ive seen,thats includeing the long(ranged)weapons
looks like tribes on ultra slow than mechs to be fair

That map looks about ten times bigger than any of the MW4 maps (and by far more populated with objects than ANY MW3 map). I'm sure PGI is still tuning the gameplay quite a bit at this point (having worked in game development for over a decade myself I know how the development cycle goes), plus there's going to be all kinds of modules and pilot skills that you're not even seeing there. The video we're seeing is the BT equivalent of two Yugo's racing a Volkswagon Bug, and the Bug driver isn't paying attention, because he's explaining to the camera what's going on the whole time.

As the Dev said earlier, these maps are going to most likely be 12v12. That means that 2v1 battles are going to be the norm rather than the exception, and tactics will have much more to do with success than a quick trigger finger. I enjoy this style, so I even though I see what you mean, I want to give PGI the benefit of the doubt here, especially since they have not mentioned doing any tweaking to make engagement ranges shorter, or 'mechs faster, etc.

StandingCow, on 10 May 2012 - 06:11 AM, said:

Think it is gonna take people a little while to learn they can't just rush in.

Seeing as how most other games not only encourage this style of gameplay, but seem to make it a central part of the design I expect to see lots of this (from noobs) for the entire life of the game.

Edited by Iron Horse, 10 May 2012 - 11:27 AM.

[Sprouticus]

Bryan Ekman, on 10 May 2012 - 06:00 AM, said:

Our goals when it comes to range - make every Mech relevant. Counter a singular spec - boats. Emphasize different tactics, like indirect fire. And encourage more medium to close range combat. By doing so, we make light, medium, and some heavies more useful and critical for success. No longer is the game an arms race to Assault class BattlMechs.

The Forest Colony map features a variety of terrain and tactics. The inlet (ocean), is wide open. You can shoot from one end of the map to the other using lasers (albeit the effectiveness dies out beyond max range.). The middle road, which is featured heavily in the videos, is semi open, with LOS ranges equivalent to approximately 50-60% of the map. And the high route, which is tight, narrow and has a cave.

Two months ago, 100% of the combat took place in the wide open inlet. Then we added indirect fire LRMS and people needed to avoid being spotted, so gameplay shifted. Then we added bases, and people started to hang back and defend. With every addition, gameplay becomes more complex and more tactics are introduced. This will be ongoing forever, since MWO is constantly evolving.

Zoom is being worked on and integrated into an upcoming FNF beta patch. This will significantly improve targeting for sniper mechs. The command wheel, battlegrid, and modules and other role features are all being integrated to further layer in tactical depth.

That makes me a little sad. I was hoping for no zoom. I will reserve judgement of course, but lets hope zoom is not as powerful as it was in other MW titles.

[Mason Grimm]

Aegis Kleais™, on 10 May 2012 - 10:52 AM, said:

et tu, Grimm?

Yes, even me, Caesar.

I know I shouldn't encourage them but sometimes it's just too good to pass up.

[Aegis Kleais]

Mason Grimm, on 10 May 2012 - 11:52 AM, said:

Yes, even me, Caesar.

I know I shouldn't encourage them but sometimes it's just too good to pass up.

No worries buddy. Even though with that statement you made, your wings fell off, thankfully you didn't have far to fall.

...
..
.

BURN!

[LackofCertainty]

Angelicon, on 10 May 2012 - 09:15 AM, said:

No, I'm talking about the fact that every min/maxer out there wants more damage for less tonnage. Who isn't going to upgrade weapons, heatsinks, etc as soon as they see an improvement or advantage for their mech setups? Obsoleting weaponry and equipment isn't related to balancing teams.

I'm still expecting asymetrical balance when Clans come out.

In other words, IS tech is what IS players are stuck with, and Clanners get the clan goodies. Downside is, more IS people fight fewer Clanners. (like 12vs10 for example)


To the guy talking about game modes, PGI's already said that the game will most likely just launch with a "deathmatch/capture enemy base" mode, but that they'll be working to add new game modes after launch. So, while I too hope for dynamic goals that change mid mission like you suggested, we're gonna have to settle in for the long haul before we can expect those.

[Pvt Dancer]

warner__, on 10 May 2012 - 03:42 AM, said:

You're not the only one, there are many veterans of competitive league play who are worried about this. Worried, because they care, and want MWO to be great. However, there will be a beta, and then we'll all get to see how it plays out between organised, competitive teams, and who knows range/speed/damage might very well be adjusted. Until then it's OK to voice concerns, don't let the fan boys get you down, but be prepared to wait until playing the game in beta or release before you make your mind up how the game will play out.

I like pots calling the kettle black... heh, fan boys. Organised competitive teams? Competitive league play? If they were real battletech fans, they would be happy there is a chance out there the game is going to be done right, finially. I have been waiting 25 years for a real battletech game, not some wanna-be Clan laser orgy.

DV^McKenna, on 10 May 2012 - 03:47 AM, said:

This is likely to be the best response you will see in this thread, the rest will range from rabid fanboyism to omgwtf its free you cant complain.
Wait for beta, play it see what its actually like, there are many others that share concerns from gameplay to maps and mechlab weapon ranges the list goes on.

Best thing you can do is wait it out, play it make sure its broken then prove it is, personally can not wait to see the truly competitive get their hands on the mechlab and min/max the crap out of it.

The problem with the 'truily competitive' is that they do /not/ fix what they fine to be broken. They are exploiters to conceal the fact to give themselves an edge. The 'truily competitive' min-maxers are people who only try to break games, not make them better. They do not make reports saying 'hey, look at what I can do!'. The Devs get it from other people saying, 'Holy crap, can they do that?' Meanwhile the exploiters are having the time of their life till their exploit gets fixed. Then if the fix truily makes it so they can not have the most powerful thing in the game, the 'nerf hammer' on the forums comes out and they just leave... because they are not here to enjoy the game for the game itself, they are here for their own enjoyment at everyone else's expense.

I know people like this who I consider to be friends... we can't play games together because I am not a 'power player'.

[Pvt Dancer]

LackofCertainty, on 10 May 2012 - 12:13 PM, said:

I'm still expecting asymetrical balance when Clans come out.

In other words, IS tech is what IS players are stuck with, and Clanners get the clan goodies. Downside is, more IS people fight fewer Clanners. (like 12vs10 for example)

When clans first came out, they were designed to have a 3 to 1 advantage. They also had these other 'balance' features like one clanner fires on one mech, so no helping each other out that quickly got thrown out the window because players didn't play that way. 12-4 would really be the proper balance, specially if you want to keep tech levels the same.

Hey... don't hate the players, hate the game.

[UncleKulikov]

Wait for the beta, and air your concerns by fielding mechs with the weapons you are worried won't be balanced well. By using LRMs extensively, the devs will receive more data on how they behave on the battlefield and then be able to adjust them more accurately.

The same applies for weapons you consider to be overpowered. Abuse both kinds; shine the light upon them.

[Creed Buhallin]

Sprouticus, on 10 May 2012 - 11:41 AM, said:

That makes me a little sad. I was hoping for no zoom. I will reserve judgement of course, but lets hope zoom is not as powerful as it was in other MW titles.

I believe that zoom will be enabled via a module. So yes, it will be there, but it will be a choice, and you'll be sacrificing some other capability in order to make use of it. I believe that's why Bryan refers to it as a boon for sniper 'mechs.