92 replies to this topic

[Antony Weiner]

Lightfoot, on 30 November 2012 - 09:23 PM, said:

but most will find the joystick easier.

Uhm, no. PC gamers of any genre but flying sims have YEARS of gameplay time on input device A (mouse) and little to none (in comparison) on input device B (joystick). Just because you are proficient with i.device B doesn't mean that most PC gamers are. Most PC gamers do not even have an input device B, and many past mechwarriors/tie-fighters (oh yeah) have a CH Product from 1998 or something of that sort. Furthermore, input device A is superior to input device B as it resets its relative position instantaneously without the need to press a separate control button that also happens to reset your torso alignment (which is a no go in many situations). I am very good with my $40 stick in this game, but I am terrifying with a mouse.

There is a reason why F22 and F35 have sophisticated force sensing sticks on 'em. Unfortunately, with MWO Crysis mechanics you simply do not need a stick vs a mouse (no prolonged multi-directional motion is used, which is what mouse is incapable of and joystick is designed for), except for a superior control over weapon groups and other aim and fire functions alike zoom.

[Tempered]

yashmack, on 30 November 2012 - 09:32 PM, said:

Ive watched people who are clearly using joysticks while im in spectator mode and do not see this happening
I wish I had a working joystick to try this out with...



I dont agree with this
using a joystick can be just as effective as a mouse and keyboard if you are skilled at the joystick
This is one thing that saddens me about current gaming, there is not enough joystick use in current games
joysticks are relegated to the tiny ones on the console controllers or to flight sims...

If you haven't tried a joystick in MWO yet, then you really have no idea. It isn't some ***** against joystick users, it is about game functionality.

[Antony Weiner]

Tempered, on 30 November 2012 - 09:28 PM, said:

Last time I checked, the problem was that one of the axis was digital

Both x and y axis are analog (which is enough for "theoretically aiming as precise as with a mouse") and can be adjusted to allow for precision fire. What you are experiencing is either poorly adjusted stick or poorly designed stick. Make sure to set your sensitivity higher than 1 and gain of 8 or more.

[Jadel Blade]

Lightfoot, on 30 November 2012 - 09:10 PM, said:

PGI said analog turning is coming before the game goes live. I know alot of MechWarrior fans who won't bother looking at MWO until it does have joystick support. I tell them it's on the way. They say, let me know.

Where/when did they say that?
EDIT: I read the comment. The thing is it makes no difference to the useability of the joystick. If you use the left right axis on the stick for turning then how will you aim?

The issue is using a big non resetting input device to control a mouse cursor. Its just not practical.

IMO its never going to be any good to play with a stick, in previous titles you could probably get fairly proficient with it due to the way the aiming system worked. In MWO the way it works renders the stick really clumsy for aiming. I dont think they can ever change that. It would require a completely different system.

As a few people have said the fun factor is really high with a stick and throttle. You really feel like your a mech pilot but its just not effective. You would have to be a top tier super genius pro with a joystick to match my pretty average joe with a mouse.

Try using windows with a joystick instead of mouse for a while, or play some of the more famous FPS games like CS, CoD etc. MWO is just another FPS really with a tiny bit more complexity and some different skins.

Edited by Jadel Blade, 30 November 2012 - 09:44 PM.

[yashmack]

Antony Weiner, on 30 November 2012 - 09:37 PM, said:

Both x and y axis are analog (which is enough for "theoretically aiming as precise as with a mouse") and can be adjusted to allow for precision fire. What you are experiencing is either poorly adjusted stick or poorly designed stick. Make sure to set your sensitivity higher than 1 and gain of 8 or more.

this is what I was thinking as well...
I thought there were 2 analog channels in MWO's joystick settings when I look in the options menu last
it should work...
I really want a joystick now just to see whats up with it...
I will probly buy one on pay day now

[Taizan]

Paul Inouye, on 08 August 2012 - 04:19 PM, said:

TrackIR support is low priority vs joystick. Joystick is low priority to stabilizing the game and making sure all features are ready for testing for Launch.

Although its about Track IR implementation, I guess this will give joystick jockies an idea where the priority of joystick support is.

Link to thread

[Antony Weiner]

yashmack, on 30 November 2012 - 09:41 PM, said:

this is what I was thinking as well...
I thought there were 2 analog channels in MWO's joystick settings when I look in the options menu last
it should work...
I really want a joystick now just to see whats up with it...
I will probly buy one on pay day now

I assure you that without a force sensing stick you will not be competitive against mice players, as in able to target and hit upper center torso of an assault mech at 700 meters one second and then instantaneously transitioning to targeting a damaged right torso of a hunchy that is moving at 81kph in a circle around you.

Might want to wait with the stick until at least "past-beta stage," or buy either the cheapest one or a high-end force sensing stick.

Edited by Antony Weiner, 30 November 2012 - 09:49 PM.

[Antony Weiner]

Lightfoot, on 30 November 2012 - 09:07 PM, said:

If mouse+keyboard is so easy, why are they adding 3rd person view to help players learn it? With a Joystick you are competitive in mech games from the first day and after a month you are a pro.

I think you are confusing two absolutely different things. They are not adding a 3rd person view because of complexity of piloting input. They are adding 3rd person view so that more people will spend their MC on paint and patterns. Moreover, it took me about two weeks of sacrificing performance to get back into the saddle with the stick, only to realize that it is inferior by design to the mouse. There are no "mech sims;" with the speed of torso rotation that we have in this game (moderate-to-intense mouse throw is a complete torso rotation) the mechanics are virtually identical to that of an FPS.

The problem with simulation of a battlemech is that you cant really simulate something that doesn't exist. I can assure you that in the XXXI century no one will ever use a joystick or a walking tank or a rifle, given the unbroken progression of current scientific development. In this respect, Mechwarrior was never a sim. It always was a "virtual sim," and that is where joysticks help with immersion and roleplay. However, in last 20 years we made significant advances in input device design and moving joysticks became obsolete.

Edited by Antony Weiner, 30 November 2012 - 10:04 PM.

[syngyne]

Lightfoot, on 30 November 2012 - 09:07 PM, said:

Have you ever pressed the 'C' key? It resets the the reticles instantly.

That's not the issue with joysticks for aiming. The problem is that the way the arm reticle behaves with respect to the input device. With a mouse, the position of the arm reticle in its range of movement is sort of mapped to a 1:1 position with where your mouse is. To make aiming adjustment, it's just a matter of adjusting your mouse position, and the reticle moves to the corresponding position in its range. With a joystick, you're telling the reticle to accelerate in a direction, and then having to tell it to stop again when you get there, as opposed to just jumping over to that position as you do with the mouse. If you could set your joystick up for absolute positioning, you'd run into the problem of having to apply constant pressure to the stick to keep the reticle over a specific spot, whereas with a mouse you just move it where the reticle needs to go and then stop moving.

This isn't to say you can't get good with a joystick, it's just that there is a lot less motion and effort involved using a mouse to aim the way this game is set up. Given how ubiquitous a mouse and keyboard are, it's not surprising that joystick support is on a back burner. It's a shame, but there are reasons for it.

Quote

If mouse+keyboard is so easy, why are they adding 3rd person view to help players learn it?

Separate issue. New users are having problems dealing with being able to look one way and move another. That's going to be an issue regardless of what input scheme is being used, as it's a problem of inadequate HUD feedback and there being no real tutorial in the game.

[Yawarakai Te]

Personally I would prefer to be able to use a joystick in my left hand to control mech leg movement and direction with the buttons free for target locking, weapon group cycling etc. I would like to still use mouse for torso movement, firing etc. To me this would be the best of both worlds, I hate using the keyboard for mech control. I can do it, I just dont like it. Are there any good left hand joysticks made? If there was game support and a good left hand joystick I would be all over it.

[cmopatrick]

Lin Shai, on 30 November 2012 - 08:35 PM, said:

Niche market. Most people don't even own joysticks any more, which is why they didn't bother making it a priority to support them.
And that's ignoring that the arm/torso separation in this game really isn't suited for joysticks.

Lin Shai, on 30 November 2012 - 08:58 PM, said:

So, when you just make up stuff out of thin air, it doesn't actually make it true/real.
Keyboard + mouse is the de facto standard on the PC. That's how most games are played, and what most people are used to. Joystick games have sadly gone the way of the dinosaur and the ones that remain are, again, niche market.

one might also say the same thing about BT 'Mech sims, right? a dinosaur with less than perfect physics last really seen on life support with m$ after 2k, right? but then again, i think there is a company out there working on one right now... it's even in open beta (whether it should be open or not is irrelevant).

as for torso and arm, i'm sorry you feel that way, but with analog support a reasonable 3 axis js is still perfect for the previous mw franchises and i would submit would be here also.
i know it probably doesn't matter to the superior progressive m/kb only fps players, but i have obviously ancient clanmates and former clanmates who tried for a day or two and now aren't interested in mwo while it is m/kb only. i certainly (rhymes with "duck") trying to dance an opponent with m/kb. i was never a top player with a stick, but i was a heck of a lot better than what this reduces me to (and yes, i have played a few games in the last several months, so i have a bit of practice trying). yes, i have known great players in previous mw games who are m/kb, but i also note that many of them were heavy and assault pilots, and often jumpsnipers or laserboaters... basically stationary platforms with little or no dancing. the funny thing is i have seen teamchat posts while i'm using the m/kb in some attempt to dance with another mech where i'm the last of my team alive and they comment that i'm obviously trying to use a stick... and i have no chance to correct them without giving up the fight...

i do wish they would get complete analog stick support included... but if it means they hold off on improving the netcode, mm/cw improvements, or any of the many crash/bug fixes, then i'll gladly wait. better a m/kb game than none at all or mw4 (et.al.) reruns.

yashmack, on 30 November 2012 - 09:12 PM, said:

I havent used a joystick yet as I dont have one that wasnt made in the 90s...
what is missing from joystick support?
I see lots of options to set binding in the options menu, does this not work?
I want to get a joystick but I want to know whats wrong with joystick support first...

it does not have complete analog support. i have a good saitek and even with .cfg adjustments and the stick's own (very good for other games) setup/tweak options, it is not a smooth twist, turn. tilt that it should be (and has been in other mw franchises) . btw, wasting tilt with a throttle function limits the mech in combat...

Edited by cmopatrick, 30 November 2012 - 10:09 PM.

[Socket7]

I've got a flightstick and throttle setup. I use it for playing real simulators. DCS-A10C mostly. It's wonderful for that, because an A-10 is So much more complex that you really do need a HOTAS system for it. The gentle and fine movement control afforded by a joystick is where it's at when you are trying to hit the sweet spot for refueling behind a KC-130 tanker for a few minutes at a time. I've got a head tracking unit for it too, and it really helps a lot being able to look around the cockpit with your head.

However

I've always found joysticks to be a bit clumsy for Mechwarrior, all the way back to Mechwarrior 2. I had a gravis Phoenix for mechwarrior 2. It plugged into the joystick port and the keyboard because it had so many buttons. USB didn't exist back then. (yup. I'm old) The fine control you get from a joystick is too slow for a mech I find. I'm never being gentle when I'm aiming a mech. I'm throwing my torso back and forth, up and down, then for 1 or two seconds I need to be perfectly on target, then I'm back to hard fast movements. Because most of my time is spent doing coarse movement rather then fine movement, I find myself throwing the stick rapidly back and forth across it's entire range of motion just to get the torso moving at full speed. This wastes time. When I'm trying to do fine control of the torso to line up a shot, I find that slight inputs on the stick don't move the torso fast enough.

I like joysticks. I think they should be part of the game, but I think it should be a relatively low development priority. The truth is that most PC gamers don't have joysticks anymore, because they have basically been relegated to the flight simulator genre. I find the keyboard and mouse to be a much better option when piloting a mech. I always have, and it's not for lack of trying other things.

I might try and hook my TrackIR up to work with MWO, but I have a feeling that will fall flat too. Head tracking does not work with the mouselook mechanic used for torso and aiming control. I could set it up to let me look around the cockpit itself, but that would give me very little in the way of extra situational awareness. You pretty much see all you can by looking straight forward out the cockpit of a battlemech, and none of the in cockpit screens I could look at are working anyway.

So that's my 2 credits on the whole joystick thing. They're neat, they're fun, but most gamers don't have them and I honestly think you are better served by a keyboard and mouse in this case.

[Ouster]

I don't think control proficiency is not the issue. It mechanicly difficult to stutter digital left right input on any joystick based control system. So for left right turns you have to use the keyboard which rendering a true throttle (or rudder ) control as useless. The second problem is mouse control is essentially heavily computer assisted mech movement but with the joystick we get limited control with limited assistances. It neither fully direct mapped to all movement controls arms, torso, and legs. Nor does it get full computer assistance like the mouse. Couple that with a lack of momentum / acceleration in most of the mech movement axis beyond throttle and you create a huge disparity in efficiency between the mouse and the keyboard.

PGI needs to add realistic acceleration to the rest of the mech, Access to all the mech axis for direct control along with mouse style linked axis, and analog foot input. Then and only then will we see that mouse and joystick can be equally efficient.

Both controls are equally intuitive in different ways. I think joystick control would be more intuitive to gamers that have never play FPS shooter on pc but right now joystick user are asking for a lot of frustration.

Unfortunately adding realistic acceleration to the rest of the mech is likely to destroy the feel of the game for current mouse control/ FPS fans so I not sure PGI can fix the problem with out alienating part of the player base. Full simulator game play was a must for joystick support and neither made it in during closed beta. So now I am not so sure I can be fixed with out destroying the current feel and pacing of the game. It still open beta so there hope but I not sure they will change the game that fundamentally.

Edited by Ouster, 01 December 2012 - 12:50 AM.

[Antony Weiner]

syngyne, on 30 November 2012 - 09:56 PM, said:

With a joystick, you're telling the reticle to accelerate in a direction, and then having to tell it to stop again when you get there, as opposed to just jumping over to that position as you do with the mouse.

THIS

Furthermore, "Full Joystick Support," as not just analog X and Y (which are in game already), but also analog Z and elaborate in menu ability to adjust the stick's sensitivity and gain (any deadzone at all will leave you handicapped) are not going to improve your ability to target with the stick. X and Y axis are already analog and analog Z axis is a tiny improvement that is not required for precision targeting (hey, we have digital input on the kb and no one is complaining).

Even right now, on my cheap Logitech stick, I am able to adjust the deadzone, sensitivity, and gain to a degree that allows for theoretical precision targeting (i.e. both itty-bitty micro movements and full swings can be done). The only thing that is limiting me is having to move my stick "there and back" to do the micro adjustments. I am not sure what you are waiting on. On a Santa Claus to bring you a solid stick from F22 that has a usb on it?

Edited by Antony Weiner, 30 November 2012 - 10:16 PM.

[syngyne]

Making the steering axis analog would I think go a long way to helping joystick users (or at least it would give me an excuse to pick up some pedals, I want to steer with my feet again), but I think Paul mentioned in another thread that it would take a lot of rework to the current 'Mech movement code in order to get it in.

[Xmith]

Lin Shai, on 30 November 2012 - 08:35 PM, said:

Niche market. Most people don't even own joysticks any more, which is why they didn't bother making it a priority to support them.

And that's ignoring that the arm/torso separation in this game really isn't suited for joysticks.

What in the world are you taking about? I have a question for you. Have you ever played MW Mercs? If not, you don't have much time. MekTek is shutting it down. I played with a joystick. Logitech Extreme 3D Pro. You can program this stick to do almost every fuction you want.

On the stick I had fire button 1-3. The hat was used for radar on or off, look left, right and rear. Button 2 was used for zoom. button 4 was for coolant activation for the HOLA servers. And of course, torso twist. All other fuctions, keyboard.

I thought this was MWO. sim. I'm sorry. MWO can not be called a sim until they have full joystick support.

[WhiteTiger]

Jadel Blade, on 30 November 2012 - 09:39 PM, said:

Where/when did they say that?
EDIT: I read the comment. The thing is it makes no difference to the useability of the joystick. If you use the left right axis on the stick for turning then how will you aim?

The issue is using a big non resetting input device to control a mouse cursor. Its just not practical.

IMO its never going to be any good to play with a stick, in previous titles you could probably get fairly proficient with it due to the way the aiming system worked. In MWO the way it works renders the stick really clumsy for aiming. I dont think they can ever change that. It would require a completely different system.

As a few people have said the fun factor is really high with a stick and throttle. You really feel like your a mech pilot but its just not effective. You would have to be a top tier super genius pro with a joystick to match my pretty average joe with a mouse.

Try using windows with a joystick instead of mouse for a while, or play some of the more famous FPS games like CS, CoD etc. MWO is just another FPS really with a tiny bit more complexity and some different skins.

You made a good point. It really comes down to are you a FPS type of player or a Sim type of player and in between you have the competitive ones who adapt and use both(Because of the lack for joystick support). Every Mechwarrior game was developed as a simulator, as such joystick support was always a priority for the developers. Maybe because we haven't had a Mechwarrior game for such a long time many forgot that very important fact and the reason for a lack of joystick support.
Which now brings us and the developers to a dilemma. Do they want this to be a FPS game or a Sim game?
I for one enjoyed playing Mechwarrior because it felt like I was piloting a Giant robot/Mech and I started reading the Battletech novels and more than ever I wanted that simulator feel of piloting a mech, that's part of what made Mechwarrior so popular. That immersive feeling of being in a cockpit and piloting a mech. The Battletech Centers were the ultimate simulator experience, no mice just you in an enclosed cockpit with a Joystick, Throttle and Rudder pedals. Talk about an Awesome experience. That's what every Mechwarrior fan hopes to experience when they play a Mechwarrior game, so to the devs what's it going to be FPS or Sim.......

ps. You made a reference about try using Windows with a joystick, I'll do you one better. Try flying a real F22 with a mouse. Hehehe

[Tempered]

A joystick seems the most natural input device for mech games because it gives you tactile feedback for your torso twist. You instinctively know where you are twisted by the position of your joystick. A mouse just doesn't give that feedback. If they were to beef up the hud symbology to better indicate twist position, it would go a long way to improving the game for those that prefer a joystick but don't want to use one under the current implementation.

I would prefer using my twisty stick like in previous mech titles, but find it unusable as it is now.

[Ptom]

They should only support full-body visualization systems, where input is only achieved through the movement of your entire body.

Then the only jenner pilots would be marathon runners. Justice is served!

[yashmack]

Ptom, on 30 November 2012 - 11:06 PM, said:

They should only support full-body visualization systems, where input is only achieved through the movement of your entire body.

Then the only jenner pilots would be marathon runners. Justice is served!