37 replies to this topic

[General Taskeen]

UPDATE:

-Revised poll to reflect new polling rules.
-Posted old results at end of thread.
-Updated ECM Mech lists/revisions/links
-Updated Record Sheet Links again

- Also, as a reminder, while I don't agree with ECM's current implementation, I would like to see it better represented on Mech's that could have it now until later variants are added. More variety on the field is better than no variety, right?


So now that we know ECM will likely only be on 'canon' variants, should the starting 'ECM' Mechs better reflect that?

The Jenner-D was rightfully removed from the list (although I wouldn't mind the F or K getting it), but I think it can be better since we already have other Mechs, in-game right now, that have future ECM variants. The goal, in some cases, is to reduce redundancy (if hardpoints allow it to be made exactly), but use other current Mechs as 'stop-gaps,' until either the year arrives where the ECM variant or ECM-built Mech is introduced.

This idea got buried in another thread, so I'm putting it here for discussion

In my opinion, the current list of ECM equip-able Mechs should be changed. However, some of these will likely change in time anyways, based on what the Dev comment in the ECM Command Chair thread said, "As we add new Mechs into the game, some of them will be ECM capable, and we may even go back and reconsider existing Mechs deserving of the capability.":

From this

• Commando COM-2D
  
• Raven RVN-3L
  
• Cicada CDA-3M
  
• Atlas AS7-D-DC
  
• *NEW* Spider-5D (predicted 5D or 5V)

*Notes:
-I tried matching hard-points to other variants as closely as possible
-In some cases, this also gives ECM to perceived 'weaker' or less used variants



To be reconsidered for change in future when additional ECM Mech's arrive:

• Commando COM-2D - None ever used on Commando variants (Plus I don't see why the best Commando needs ECM, why not one of the 'weaker' variants?)
  
• Raven RVN-3L - Already equipped obviously (and other variants, 4L for instance)
  
• Cicada CDA-3M - None ever used on Cicada variants
  
• Atlas AS7-D-DC or AS7-RS or AS7-K - Keep Atlas with ECM, since future variants known as the AS7-S2/S3 have it. The Atlas DC is a better match in comparison to the S2 and the RS a good match in comparison to the S3.
  
• Spider-5D - Keep. Best match until future Spider-7Kr.

Additions or Other Possibilities:

• Assault Stalker STK-3F - Why? The STK-3Fb, a Star League Era sub-variant mounts an ECM and actually fits within the current time-line, technology-wise, disregarding 'jihad-sldf rule.' (The Stalker has a tentative release schedule of December 18th *Released* )
  
• Assault Awesome AWS-8Q - Why? The AWS-9Q, an upgrade package for the 8Q/9M series, gets ECM in 3057
  
• Medium Hunchback HBK-4P - Why? The HBK-5P, appearing in 3069 gets ECM, is the closest match until it may or may not be added.
  
• Heavy Cataphract CTF-1X - Why? The CTF-4L appearing in the 3060s gets ECM
  
• Heavy JagerMech JM7-DD or JM7-S - Why? The JM7-F (uniquely upgrades JagerMech to 70 tons) gets ECM in 3062. Possibly un-needed as Jager's are the jack of all trades, plus the 70 ton JagerMech contain their own 3 variants, the D, F, and G.
  
• Heavy Quickdraw QKD-4G -Why? The QKD-5Mr appearing in 3070 gets ECM (Release Date: June 18th *Released*)
  
• Light Jenner-F or Jenner-K - The JR7-10X gets AECM in 3072, and is the closest match to the Jenner-F (10X uses 6 ML's), although giving it to the JR7-K could get it too as it is the least used Jenner.

(with this new list, it would cover all weight classes, with varying loadouts, not just ECM+LRM+Streaks with current mechs, making everyone happier perhaps at least in regards to what Mech's can mount it. Plus giving ECM to least used - almost redudant and/or weak variants would also introduce more variety)

For consideration of other Mechs that appear later:

• Light Flea FLE-17 - Why? The FLE-20 appearing in 3071 gets ECM
  
• Light Locust ? - LCT-5W2 (3079)
  
• Heavy Thunderbolt ? - TDR-9NAIS (3067) TDR-11SE (3069)
  
• Assault Battlemaster ? - BLR-4L (3081) BLR-10S (3070)

Out of all the currently announced Mechs and the one's already in-game, that would make a total of 10-11 variants that could use ECM, until either the year arrives where an actual variant can be introduced or more Mechs are introduced that already have ECM in this time period and are put into the game.









Previous poll results

Quote

80% said yes (20 votes)
20% said no (5 votes)

(what mechs available now should get it)

• Raven (17 votes [47.22%])
  
• Hunchback (2 votes [5.56%])
  
• Cataphract (2 votes [5.56%])
  
• Atlas (3 votes [8.33%])
  
• Awesome (4 votes [11.11%])
  
• All of The Above (6 votes [16.67%])
  
• None (2 votes [5.56%])

(what should get it when available)

• Flea (9 votes [23.08%])
  
• Spider (11 votes [28.21%])
  
• JagerMech (1 votes [2.56%])
  
• Stalker (6 votes [15.38%])
  
• All of The Above (6 votes [15.38%])
  
• None (6 votes [15.38%])

Edited by General Taskeen, 13 July 2013 - 05:30 AM.

[General Taskeen]

I figured more people would want to discuss this...

[Voidsinger]

How very interesting. This poll is obviously yet another Raven Fan poll. All polls like this turn into fan polls

You include the Raven which already has it (although you do include the Atlas, which also has a variant which carries it)

Let's talk about two other groups of mechs you seem to have forgotten.

The first is those who would normally mount C3.

C3 is an extremely powerful tool, initially Draconis Combine mechs only, then later historically, the majority of mechs. So powerful in fact that they gave all mechs in game C3i capabilities. The earlier C3 units also had TAG capability. This means C3 is not likely to be implemented, and those mechs which came with it built in (or will be built later since we';re including future variants) are robbed of a unique capability. Should they be compensated? They have 1 or 5 tons extra space free.

Next we have Targeting Computers.

Given the mouse cursor takes the place of targeting computers in regards to Ballistics and Energy weapons, having also installed the advanced electronics needed to obtain an advantage, should they get ECM? They have (Ballistic + Energy)/ 4 (IS, 5 Clan) tons freed up.

Guardian takes 1.5 tons, 2 crits and was never so powerful (They even include advantages from Angel)

All this focus on "canon ECM" mechs seems to forget that all mechs need to make compromises in design to enhance their capabilities.

The thing that breaks the entire canon argument is that some mechs are being crippled more than others by the changes to tabletop functionality being implemented by PGI. C3 had its special functions given to all mechs, Targetting computers have no place in the game. PPCs were never so important, since they gain disruption capability. TAG is now a weapon, taking an energy hardpoint, in spite of being the recommended countermeasures means some mechs suffer more than others.

Mechs were designed for the compromises of tabletop. When functions change, or equipment is effectively obsoleted by Dev choices, then the compromises they made to carry that advantage are also nullified, and they can obtain other edges, like ECM.

Forget canon when PGI changes a function, think balance in terms of what a mech obtains, what compromises it has to make to obtain these advantages, and what sacrifices a mech has to make to deal with PGI's changes that are not in the canon.

[Oppresor]

ECM should be the preserve of the Heavy and Assault classes. These are the units that are most prone to LRM damage simply because of there size and slow speed. ECM offers an alternative to AMS and would save weight in terms of ammunition. The other advantage is that it dosn't run out of ammunition.

One possible disadvantage, discussed in another forum entry, is that if an anti-radiation missile was to be created and introduced into the MW universe; it would easily lock onto the radiation produced by an ECM system working in Barrage jamming mode.

[General Taskeen]

Voidsinger, on 01 December 2012 - 02:33 PM, said:

[redacted]

Well I don't pilot a Raven. So there is one assumption that falls flat.

Please stay on topic. The Devs decided on the Raven, and a handful of others, I have modified the list to reflect true ECM units (The Raven) and stopgap choices (Mechs with variants that have ECM). In other words, I'm reflecting on the Developers own ideas/plans for ECM.

A. They included 4 Mechs (somewhat covering all weight classes)
B. We already have Mechs that have ECM variants later on, so it makes sense to include those rather than any Mech that has 0 ECM variants

Please note, again, I did not forget any Mechs with C3, TAG, or *insert whatever equipment* here. I already know about them and those issues. My idea is based on what the Developers are doing with ECM (limiting it like Mechs that have jumpjets). This thread is not for trolling/arguments/flaming.

For further reading, please read this thread: Guardian Ecm Suite

Edited by General Taskeen, 01 December 2012 - 03:38 PM.

[Voidsinger]

General Taskeen, on 01 December 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

Well I don't pilot a Raven. So there is one assumption that falls flat.

Please stay on topic. The Devs decided on the Raven, and a handful of others, I have modified the list to reflect true ECM units (The Raven) and stopgap choices (Mechs with variants that have ECM). In other words, I'm reflecting on the Developers own ideas/plans for ECM.

A. They included 4 Mechs (somewhat covering all weight classes)
B. We already have Mechs that have ECM variants later on, so it makes sense to include those rather than any Mech that has 0 ECM variants

Please note, again, I did not forget any Mechs with C3, TAG, or *insert whatever equipment* here. My idea is based on what the Developers are doing with ECM (limiting it like Mechs that have jumpjets). This thread is not for trolling/arguments/flaming.

For further reading, please read this thread: Guardian Ecm Suite

I have read, and what I said was on topic.

If you look at the message, I am saying that changed implemetations by PGI change the basis on which canon mechs were designed. Therefore, limits based on canon should not apply, and that includes access to Guardian ECM.

If you had asked instaed "Should any mech in canon that has built in ECM get it in game?" then my answer would be yes.

Variants reflect technology of the time. Compromises change in light of this. With some of these you are looking 30 years ahead. The entire basis of the mech changes in some cases.

Given the limited number of mechs PGI can produce, forcing people to play in a chassis they do not like for any capability, especially given PGI's power level changes is just wrong in my opinion.

[General Taskeen]

And that is something I recognize and others as well. Either we can have only a Raven, with the Developers proposed idea of limited ECM Mechs (like jump jets) or we can have a few others to fill in that role until other Mechs with built ECM are put in the game.

And I do realize your concerns/issues, I too once thought limits based on canon should not apply. I was for heavier customization (sacrificing something else to equip whatever it is you are trying to put on your Mech). But, I do recognize now that MWO is largely based on trying to bring a "uniqueness" by adding specific variants of Mechs, with unique looks, and weapon loadouts, etc. If it wasn't that way, there wouldn't be any reason to play one chassis over another if you could build the exact same thing.

I can only assume the developers will continue to adhere to 'unique' chassis designs with how certain customization options are limited (either someone can choose to stick to a default chassis design or customize it somewhat, its up to the player). In other words, I am merely reflecting on how the developers have stuck to keeping chassis variants unique. To me, it makes more sense to include Mechs that do have ECM later on, than ones that don't (A Commando-2D, huh?), at least for the time being.

What doesn't make sense, and what will likely confuse some people when ECM becomes available is why a Raven (that is built with ECM, and has other future ECM variants) is going up against at least 2 Mechs that never had it. Then what happens when those Mechs suddenly become void of any ECM use, since the Devs already stated they will likely be re-evaluated when other ECM Mechs are added later in the lifetime of the game? Therefore it simply makes sense, in order to avoid frustrating people when they suddenly find out their previous build is invalid, is to give the Mechs in my OP the ability to use it instead.

Edited by General Taskeen, 01 December 2012 - 04:41 PM.

[General Taskeen]

I'm modified the list, changing the AWS-9M idea to the AWS-8Q. After looking at the Classic Battletech Record Sheets: 3050 Upgrades, the AWS-9Q model more closely resembles the 8Q with the same Standard Engine. I know the 8Q is rather lackluster, but I changed it for 'canon' purposes. The 9Q removes the hand actuator in the left arm to place a PPC there.

So what do people think, if these changes were to ever occur, should the AWS-9M or AWS-8Q use ECM?

[Peiper]

In my suggestions for changing ECM, I've thought about this topic (canon ECM) as well. In fact, I was excited about the Awesome getting the ECM, forgetting that the 9Q, while technically possible at this time, has not been feilded yet.

In tabletop, whenever I was able to kit my own mechs out (as opposed to using TRO's straight off the page) I gave EVERY mech ECM. It was just a standard countermeasure.

In MWO, EVERY mech other than trials are immediately tricked out. So, EVERY mech should have access to ECM. Likewise, ECM shouldn't be so freakin' powerful, and shouldn't stack. While it creates a bubble in tabletop, the primary purpose of it was to counter other advanced electronics, not completely cripple radar, visual identification, or affect streaks and close range combat. And the whole null signature system aspect of it... I guess it's really hard to talk about ECM without pointing out it's glaring problems.

When I think of electronics suites overall, I think of the Raven. No, I'm not a fan of the raven, but I do like the idea of dedicated recon mechs. In general, I picture them using ECM to hide, while using BAP to find the bad guys, and Narcing/tagging them when he does. That's pretty friggin' cool, if you ask me.

On the other hand, I was looking forward to ECM to put on my Cataphract and Awesomes, as I love the stories about mechs powering down, or buried under snow/underwater waiting for the right moment to strike.

So, I didn't answer your poll, but I do believe that either, some electronics packages should be exclusive to scout mechs, OR, they should be available to all mechs.

[General Taskeen]

I do agree that ECM is completely out of whack and needs to be redeveloped. I created this thread right before the release of ECM, mostly just so ECM is better represented on 'canon' or close-'canon' designs based on what the Devs said about limiting it "like jumpjets," (in other words, like variants that equipped jumpjets in TRO). So in basing it on the Devs own ideas, I figured the Mech list I compiled would be a better representation of what Mechs should currently get it.

[Mechwarrior Buddah]

ugh on a flea...

MASC plus ECM yeah thatd be fun lol

wait... Itd be fun to pilot.....

[General Taskeen]

Mechwarrior Buddah, on 06 February 2013 - 07:15 PM, said:

ugh on a flea...

MASC plus ECM yeah thatd be fun lol

wait... Itd be fun to pilot.....

It would be delicious.


A future Flea-20 is also pretty delicious (and annoying):

Stealth Armor + ECM
MASC
1 Light PPC
2 ER ML

And the saddest amount of armor: 74 points

Edited by General Taskeen, 06 February 2013 - 07:52 PM.

[HurlockHolmes]

General Taskeen, on 06 February 2013 - 07:23 PM, said:

It would be delicious.


A future Flea-20 is also pretty delicious (and annoying):

Stealth Armor + ECM
MASC
1 Light PPC
2 ER ML

And the saddest amount of armor: 74 points

Well assuming you could catch it, it would fall apart like paper mache.

[General Taskeen]

Necro'ing thread for Update.

[Terror Teddy]

Of the spiders i'd say the 5K or the 5V should have ECM.

5K because it suffers the Machine Gun curse with subpar weapons
5V because it has the fewest weapon options

The 5D is the best one with 3 available slot and 2 of them in the arm AND ECM.

[General Taskeen]

Terror Teddy, on 06 April 2013 - 12:43 PM, said:

Of the spiders i'd say the 5K or the 5V should have ECM.

5K because it suffers the Machine Gun curse with subpar weapons
5V because it has the fewest weapon options

The 5D is the best one with 3 available slot and 2 of them in the arm AND ECM.

Originally I predicted the 5V, which is actually a lot closer in comparison to the 7Kr. I knew PGI would select the 5D or 5V. Anyways, I agree.

[Praslek2]

I don't think this line of reasoning accounts for the power creep that occurred as more codices were released (some of these variants even have rotary autocannons!).
It was, debatably, one of the tactics used to sell more rulebooks.

Allowing ECM on other variants might break the balance struck in the hardpoint system.

That being said, none of the equipment was ever intended to be used in a hardpoint system in the way MWO limits it. This has all sorts of side effects that need to be addressed (eg. some mechs are just never the best at any of their potential roles, so using them instead of the superior version is a handicap).

[General Taskeen]

Praslek2, on 22 April 2013 - 02:29 AM, said:

I don't think this line of reasoning accounts for the power creep that occurred as more codices were released (some of these variants even have rotary autocannons!).
It was, debatably, one of the tactics used to sell more rulebooks.

Allowing ECM on other variants might break the balance struck in the hardpoint system.

That being said, none of the equipment was ever intended to be used in a hardpoint system in the way MWO limits it. This has all sorts of side effects that need to be addressed (eg. some mechs are just never the best at any of their potential roles, so using them instead of the superior version is a handicap).

It merely goes by how PGI originally intended to add ECM to Mechs. After the initial 4 Mech release, they have been following this basic idea (ECM Mech or Mech Variant if an ECM variant exists later as "interim"), which started with the Spider. They want it to be a "unique" limitation in the way MW4 and MW:LL did it.

I don't like ECM itself in its current format, but I would like PGI to add more variety.

My idea is for PGI to go back and re-evaluate the current selection and change as appropriate to follow their original intention.

Of course, it would good if people gave feedback for the selections I made.

Edited by General Taskeen, 22 April 2013 - 05:09 AM.

[Karl Streiger]

If and only if ECM would do, what we thought it would do before it was made available. (Do you remember the discussion when the Artemis was implemented and borked) We all though ...great they brought electronic warfare stuff without chance to counter it. Not a single on thought it would become that strong.

With keeping in mind how it should have been implemented... the ECM on the DDC makes sense...so you have 2 anti missile Atlas. The DDC and the K. But with its cloak field the ECM on the Brawler Atlas was like a slap in the face.

The Commando - hell i think you could gave every Commando a ECM and they will hardly perform any better.... only advantage is there small hitzones....

The best joke however is when you listened those ECM Mechs that carry Stealth Armor....there is no reason to keep them back...
I think a AWS could really get a ECM...its sad to see that mechs perform so lackluster.
Actually as it is: the AS7-K deserves the ECM. From all Atlas he has the worst hardpoint setting. If you like make the Command Console (still dead weight) count as limited bodyguard ECM just for the Mech that can carry it...and make the AS7-DDC the only mech able to carry that CC. Because with its 3 Missile slots...that mech looks like a superb CommandMech.

[General Taskeen]

Karl Streiger, on 22 April 2013 - 05:24 AM, said:

If and only if ECM would do, what we thought it would do before it was made available. (Do you remember the discussion when the Artemis was implemented and borked) We all though ...great they brought electronic warfare stuff without chance to counter it. Not a single on thought it would become that strong.

With keeping in mind how it should have been implemented... the ECM on the DDC makes sense...so you have 2 anti missile Atlas. The DDC and the K. But with its cloak field the ECM on the Brawler Atlas was like a slap in the face.

The Commando - hell i think you could gave every Commando a ECM and they will hardly perform any better.... only advantage is there small hitzones....

The best joke however is when you listened those ECM Mechs that carry Stealth Armor....there is no reason to keep them back...
I think a AWS could really get a ECM...its sad to see that mechs perform so lackluster.
Actually as it is: the AS7-K deserves the ECM. From all Atlas he has the worst hardpoint setting. If you like make the Command Console (still dead weight) count as limited bodyguard ECM just for the Mech that can carry it...and make the AS7-DDC the only mech able to carry that CC. Because with its 3 Missile slots...that mech looks like a superb CommandMech.

Yes, other people have considered the K variant. It too matches the future Atlas ECM variants, hardpoint-wise.

The K and/or RS would be good candidates. It has also yet to be seen what PGI's intention is for the Command Console, as to whether it will be limited per "canon" (although very few mechs in canon carry it) or allow any mech to have the command console.