45 replies to this topic

[CrayTrashfire]

Indoorsman, on 01 December 2012 - 08:57 PM, said:

Well, an Assault should never be able to take the best weapon for every weapon hardpoint IMO. If you agree, then it's not rly a hard choice even for an assault to take "dubz". Here's an Atlas loadout that wasn't possible until the "dubz" came along:
skip to 1:08 for the action

i use singles and that build is way possible

[Namwons]

They should have been double for external, since they take up so much space, and have internal engine sinks be 1.5 with upgrade, since they are free but still would benifit from upgrading. How PGI did it currently is backwards, unbalanced, making DHS a demishing return "upgrade". They almost had it right the first time.

[Indoorsman]

MustrumRidcully, on 02 December 2012 - 02:00 PM, said:

Are we there yet?

4 Large Laser
2 Streak SRM2
1 LB 10-X AC
0:23 is first contact, action is after 1:30

Edited by Indoorsman, 02 December 2012 - 03:31 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Indoorsman, on 02 December 2012 - 03:24 PM, said:

4 Large Laser
2 Streak SRM2
1 LB 10-X AC
0:23 is first contact, action is after 1:30

Looks good.

How many heat sinks?



Maybe it's not surprising that it works well, since you're using quite a few damage/weight efficient weapons. Or should I see it the other way - maybe more hint that my carts aren't too bad?

Don't tell the Gauss Pilots, but with DHS, Gauss Rifles are not the most efficient weapon anymore and they should think about armoring their ears again... THough admittedly, it's still difficult to get all that DPS inside the Catapult. 2 LLs may be more efficient than 2 Gauss, but they deliver less DPS. The K2 really needs 2 energy hard points in its ears.

Note the above chart is for 20 seconds... There was at least one engagement (starting at around 2:13, that was longer than that. I wonder if I should raise my TET frame or not...

(BTW - did you read in that old Weapon Balance and Heat System thread that the sheet is now useable in Google Docs: https://docs.google....lkMVRhcXc#gid=0)

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 03 December 2012 - 01:14 AM.

[Lefty Lucy]

MustrumRidcully, on 03 December 2012 - 01:08 AM, said:

Looks good.

How many heat sinks?



Maybe it's not surprising that it works well, since you're using quite a few damage/weight efficient weapons. Or should I see it the other way - maybe more hint that my carts aren't too bad?

Don't tell the Gauss Pilots, but with DHS, Gauss Rifles are not the most efficient weapon anymore and they should think about armoring their ears again... THough admittedly, it's still difficult to get all that DPS inside the Catapult. 2 LLs may be more efficient than 2 Gauss, but they deliver less DPS. The K2 really needs 2 energy hard points in its ears.

Note the above chart is for 20 seconds... There was at least one engagement (starting at around 2:13, that was longer than that. I wonder if I should raise my TET frame or not...

(BTW - did you read in that old Weapon Balance and Heat System thread that the sheet is now useable in Google Docs: https://docs.google....lkMVRhcXc#gid=0)

Gauss rifles are good for reasons other than efficiency, namely precision, and the fact that they're well-suited for attacking from cover, to limit your own visibility to enemy weapons.

[shabowie]

I believe you should raise your TET.

I'm only going on my gut, but I think most fights last longer, particularly at the beginning of a round before mechs are softened up with LRMs and various direct fire potshots.

Also, 4 Large Lasers is not a bad main weapon. Backed up by 2 of the most efficient short range missiles makes that even better (because they don't miss). The only bad weapon on that thing is the LBX.

Edited by shabowie, 03 December 2012 - 01:37 AM.

[Lefty Lucy]

shabowie, on 03 December 2012 - 01:33 AM, said:

I believe you should raise your TET.

I'm only going on my gut, but I think most fights last longer, particularly at the beginning of a round before mechs are softened up with LRMs and various direct fire potshots.

Also, 4 Large Lasers is not a bad main weapon. Backed up by 2 of the most efficient short range missiles makes that even better. The only bad weapon on that thing is the LBX.

Swap out the LBX for an AC10 or U/AC5 and you're looking good.

[Diablobo]

Why are we complaining about DHS when the whole triple firing rate and triple the heat with only single rate dissipation is the real problem? Even if DHS were buffed to 3.0, they still would only be as good as single heat sinks in Battletech. Complaining about the radio not working on a car that won't start is just as pointless as arguing over what the proper DHS value should be.

[MustrumRidcully]

shabowie, on 03 December 2012 - 01:33 AM, said:

I believe you should raise your TET.

I'm only going on my gut, but I think most fights last longer, particularly at the beginning of a round before mechs are softened up with LRMs and various direct fire potshots.

To where would you raise it?

Quote

Also, 4 Large Lasers is not a bad main weapon. Backed up by 2 of the most efficient short range missiles makes that even better (because they don't miss). The only bad weapon on that thing is the LBX.

The LBX is rather heat and damage/weight efficient. The problem is that you need to get closer to benefit from the damage output. It's rather silly, giving this weapon a range of 540m or something and giving it a spread that makes it impossible to hit with more than 2 of those pellets, if at all, at that range.

Diablobo, on 03 December 2012 - 01:58 AM, said:

Why are we complaining about DHS when the whole triple firing rate and triple the heat with only single rate dissipation is the real problem? Even if DHS were buffed to 3.0, they still would only be as good as single heat sinks in Battletech. Complaining about the radio not working on a car that won't start is just as pointless as arguing over what the proper DHS value should be.

1) Because the DEvs pretty much ignored such talk in the past. So we're trying to make "smaller" changes that still lead better balance.
2) Because we don't have a real heat scale. Table Top mechs rarely got in that 30-point range of heat, because the penalties getting there were too high. But we don't have those penalties, so using the exact same values as in the table top would probably make a lot of mechs much too cool for this game. Basically inefficient in the other direction, but with the added drawback that some people might not even notice the heat management possible in this game. But those that would do feeling extermely overpowered, because they can deliver twice or triple the damage output than their enemies, and kill them before their hot builds would get into heat troubles.



Of course, my preference is having the TT heat scale translated to MW:O, and treating the table top damage and heat values as abstractions for the damage and heat output of the weapon over 10 seconds. But do you honestly believe this is gonna happen anytime soon, or ever?

[shabowie]

MustrumRidcully, on 03 December 2012 - 02:43 AM, said:

To where would you raise it?

Really hard to say. Engagements between 100% assaults can be over very fast, a duel between two lights could last minutes.

Regardless your tables are still illustrative of the general point.

Tables in 20 second increments showing damage and heat done with achievable weapon and heat sink loadouts would be really interesting.

[Kotrin]

FrostCollar, on 01 December 2012 - 08:59 PM, said:

What are singles for then? If they were unambiguously better for all mechs, then Double Heat Sinks would just serve as a 1.5 million hurdle to get to a viable build.

They're not. Usability of DHS decreases with tonnage, when critical space becomes an important resource. Try to build an Atlas loaded of weapons and featuring an XL engine, you'll see that DHS will only bring you so far. The sad part of the story is that if you *wanted* to use DHS on an Assault Mech you're basically wasting money with the 1.4 version.

The supposed "overpower" of 2.0 DHS is largely overestimated by PGI due to:
- hard point limitations
- cooldown limitations.

[shabowie]

Kotrin, on 03 December 2012 - 03:13 AM, said:

The supposed "overpower" of 2.0 DHS is largely overestimated by PGI due to:
- hard point limitations
- cooldown limitations.

I think something else is driving that train. Anyone with a graphing calculator can see it isn't going to be that much better, just a little bit.

[Flapdrol]

Even at the current 1.4 value double heatsinks are an upgrade on almost any mech, because the engine heatsinks are doubles as well.

[Vincent Lynch]

I think they did it to discourage energy boating. Most Mechs who are not energy boat builds do have only very few to none DHS outside their engines so the 1.4 thing does not really apply to them.
If all DHS were 2.0, I think most players would run energy weapons only. I definitely would.

[shabowie]

Vincent Lynch, on 03 December 2012 - 03:34 AM, said:

If all DHS were 2.0, I think most players would run energy weapons only. I definitely would.

This is a nonsense statement typical of this conversation.

Are you saying on a mech capable of mounting missile and ballistic weapons as well you would opt not to utilize the extra hardpoints? You would lose to those who do.

Heavier would receive around 10-15% increase in efficiency. Lighter mechs much less.

Edited by shabowie, 03 December 2012 - 05:03 AM.

[CodeNameValtus]

shabowie, on 03 December 2012 - 01:33 AM, said:

I believe you should raise your TET.

I'm only going on my gut, but I think most fights last longer, particularly at the beginning of a round before mechs are softened up with LRMs and various direct fire potshots.

Also, 4 Large Lasers is not a bad main weapon. Backed up by 2 of the most efficient short range missiles makes that even better (because they don't miss). The only bad weapon on that thing is the LBX.

I agree that 4 Large Laser is a solid main focal point of the mech. Streak SRM2's are also solid in pairs/trips.

I am going to go ahead and just disagree with you on the LB10X...That thing is a MONSTER when it comes to crit seeking. I've never seen anything with internals exposed that survived more than 2 LB10X shots, most go down from the first shot you can get on them <300m.

It is for that reason alone that I made an Atlas as such:
Atlas-DDC - 'Shotgun Betty'
2x LB10X (LT)
3x SRM 6's (RT)
2x Large Laser
Fill in the rest. This thing pummels anything in brawling range. You're in an Atlas, so you take your pock shots from cover with your large lasers when you get up to the lines. Then after some LRM/direct fire softening (typically about 3-5 minutes into the match) you are good to go on a forward advance. By this time, usually you can find a mech with exposed internals, and then just get within 300m and it'll go down in 1 salvo, or at least be absolutely nuetered to the point where it's ineffective. Move on to the next mech and blow holes in that one too.

[CodeNameValtus]

The whole argument about DHS could pretty much be boiled down to. DHS helps out Energy Weapons the most. Missles and Ballistics have their own benefits of use, that is why they use ammo, and generate substantially less heat than energy weapons.

Ballistics have more range, simple convergence, and one location typically high burst damage. Balanced by damage/reload speed.
Missiles, at least the lock on missles, have a fire and forget mentality. Once you push the launch button, and an active lock . They do their thing. Balanced by damage/lock on traits/arc/countermeasures.
Energy weapons have the benefit of never running out of ammo. They are balanced on Heat output/duration/recycle time. Since Duration/Recycle are pretty much the same thing, and I think they have lasers in kind of a sweet spot for that, the only other thing they can do is balance them by heat output, which requires heat management. DHS/SHS values are simply the only way to do this.

[MustrumRidcully]

Vincent Lynch, on 03 December 2012 - 03:34 AM, said:

I think they did it to discourage energy boating. Most Mechs who are not energy boat builds do have only very few to none DHS outside their engines so the 1.4 thing does not really apply to them.
If all DHS were 2.0, I think most players would run energy weapons only. I definitely would.

If they wanted to discourage energy boats, why do we eve have a Jenner, Cicada, Hunchback and an Awesome variant that has only energy hard points? Is that some kind of trap for people that like energy builds, so they have to gimp themselves if they want to play what they like?

[Sifright]

MustrumRidcully, on 03 December 2012 - 06:28 AM, said:

If they wanted to discourage energy boats, why do we eve have a Jenner, Cicada, Hunchback and an Awesome variant that has only energy hard points? Is that some kind of trap for people that like energy builds, so they have to gimp themselves if they want to play what they like?

You have to love the forums.

People explain missiles are to expensive to use properly due to excessive rearm cost and lack of proper compensation in matches.

They get told use energy mechs herp they are meant to be your money earners.

People explain larger energy mechs are to hot to run properly because of the triple ROF and doubled armour with heat sinks being 1.4 on external and 2.0 inside.

They get told Herrrp use smaller energy weapons or use other mechs.


So from this I conclude the forum

Doesn't want us to run ammo dependant mechs

and that we shouldn't run energy mechs either.

This sounds like a great conclusions!

From now on all mechs must feature only nerf bats as their primary weapon.

Good sirs I shall see you on the field of combat.

Edited by Sifright, 03 December 2012 - 06:38 AM.

[Squid von Torgar]

The issue with DHS is this currently

PGI think that total 2.0 HS are a bad idea. So they decide to limit only the ones in the engine to 2.0.

So that means that mechs that can get away with the equivilent of 20 SHS gain a huge boost (Think Jenners and most mediums).

They dont take up any crit space and provide full fat 2.0 cooling. Effectively for any light and medium you get what PGI was afraid of, that being you can basically ignore the heat scale unless you pack some stupid weapons.

Now arguably the mechs that rely on DHS the most (As they carry the most weaponry and therefore generate the most heat) are Assualts.

Great I can still get the equivalent of 20 SHS in the engine, but to fit more takes space. That space could be spent on endo or weapons. Most assaults will require more than 10 DHS to actually be viable. However they are doubly hurt by the 1.4 value on externals. We really need the space and at the same time we need the extra cooling.

One only has to look at the stock 9M to see why DHS need to be their full 2.0 value.

It has 20 DHS as standard and its main armament is 3 ER PPCs. Looks good on paper.

Its equivalent SHS value then is 34.

Therefore it can generate 64 heat before shutting down and gets rid of 3.4 heat per second.

It fires its PPCs at once thats 39 heat, its at 61% on the heat scale. It has to wait 4 seconds before it can fire again which it does, its now at 100% heat. It now has to wait 11.5 seconds before it can fire again. Once it does its another 11.5 seconds etc.

I think you will agree, 11.5 seconds is a long time in MWO. Its even longer if you move your mech (which you will want to do because you cant fire).

During the 1st minute, provided it doesnt move an inch or fire anything but its ER PPCs it has fired 5 times for a total of 150 damage.

By contrast Gausscat can fire 15 times for 450 and even with SHS it wont heat up (so it can still move).

Now we have had the Gausscat for ages and yet there has been no move to balance the build by the devs. The 9M weighs 15 more tons, costs considerably more to repair, has an XL engine but because of its wide torso unlike the Cat you can target it and it carries 1/3 of its main armament in its arms.

Which would you pick?

With full dubs the 9M can generate 70 heat before shutting down (Still only 2 shots) and it has to wait 2 seconds till its second volley and then its 7.75 seconds for each one after that (Provided it doesnt move ever).

During 1 minute we have now fired 8 times for 240 damage. Thats still 210 short of the Gausscat or rather we do 53% of the damage the cat can.

And PGI are afraid that DHS would be OP?