41 replies to this topic

[Egomane]

sp1ce weezl, on 02 December 2012 - 12:41 PM, said:

I wonder, will the flea also need 10 HS?

EVERY Mech needs at least 10 heatsinks. There is no exception from this rule.

[qultar]

even a 15 ton mech has 10 HS

[Gremlich Johns]

sp1ce weezl, on 02 December 2012 - 12:41 PM, said:

I wonder, will the flea also need 10 HS?

Yes

[PapaKilo]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 02 December 2012 - 10:49 AM, said:

This is correct. it is horrid for mechs like the commando to be forced to take 4-6 tons of heatsinks because we want to run a smaller engine. the commando is currently horribly gimped with choices due to this.

Engines weights in MW:O have been adjusted so that each engine obeys the tabletop rules -- they get 10 tonnage-free heat sinks. It may appear that those heat sinks weigh something, but if you look at the overall weight, it's correct.

In other words ... that small engine in your Commando isn't supposed to be that light. It's that way so when you add the required heat sinks to your 'Mech, the tonnage is correct according to tabletop rules. Your 'Mech isn't gimped, horribly or otherwise.

[Kobura]

We could just make engines weigh their proper amount, and have the heatsinks placed automatically

But I promise then "not enough criticals" "what my engine only takes up crits in CT why I no can has a million small lasers D:"

And yes for all your information: I've done very extensive guess'n'check on the Mechlab and different mechs. All the original source material is portrayed correctly, even if it's slightly difficult to understand. Many different engines in many different mechs with many different configurations, all came out correctly when I built them on paper using only the Techmanual (you do not not not not not want to know how long that can take without electronic aid)

So, do NOT worry about the heat sinks, every mech will have to deal with them the same as well. It is NOT an undercut of the lightest chassis, it is a uniform requirement that helps keep everyone on the same playing field.

Do you REALLY want Gausscats to skip away with only 5 heatsinks in their XL125 engine and fifteen tons of ammo? Didn't think so (this is an example)

Edited by Kobura, 02 December 2012 - 03:06 PM.

[Kittamaru]

qultar, on 02 December 2012 - 11:13 AM, said:

did you not READ? the heat sink tons are all ready paid for
the only way i can see why some one wants less then 10 sinks is they want to kill them self faster

I dont' know why you are saying this... I'm running a Cicada with a Standard 150 engine... and I need to use 4 tonnes to add 4 DHS (and yes, it does adjust my tonnage based on adding/removing them!)

As it is currently built, my Cicada runs a heat efficiency of 1.44... I would be plenty fine removing two heat sinks and adding more ammo, but I can't because of this stupid requirement.

I don't particularly care if the TT rules require 10 HS minimum... enough of the game ahs deviated from the TT rules that trying to stay "pure TT" is pointless at this point...

[Stingz]

Kittamaru, on 02 December 2012 - 08:42 PM, said:

I dont' know why you are saying this... I'm running a Cicada with a Standard 150 engine... and I need to use 4 tonnes to add 4 DHS (and yes, it does adjust my tonnage based on adding/removing them!)

Pretty sure below 250 engines are: (Weight - External HS), so when you add them back on it matches TT rules for engine weight.

It's to keep stock mech builds from breaking due to construction rules.

Edited by Stingz, 02 December 2012 - 09:21 PM.

[RFMarine]

Mawai, on 02 December 2012 - 06:23 AM, said:

As mentioned ... every engine comes with 10 heat sinks ... this is part of the TT mech design system.

For large engines these fully fit inside the engine. For smaller engines these take up some space in the chassis. The weight of these heat sinks is fully included in the engine weights.

If you want a fictional "real world" explanation ... Battletech is a bit backward from a tech perspective ... they have lost a lot of knowledge and are often constructing mechs and parts based on centuries old information which they don't experiment with that much. As a result, one might consider that the design of the fusion engine cooling system is standardized and is then fitted to the specific engine during assembly. As a result, the cooling provided is the same for all mechs. However, since the engine sizes change, in some cases the cooling sub-system fits within the engine spaces and in some cases it doesn't. The engine can only hold (engine rating)/25 engine heat sink equivalents ... the rest must be allocated space in the chassis but the weight has already been accounted for in the modified engine weights used in MWO.

aha, so for a noob that explains why bigger engines like the 290 I have have slots for heatsinks.

[PapaKilo]

Kittamaru, on 02 December 2012 - 08:42 PM, said:

I don't particularly care if the TT rules require...

There are many of us who do.

The devs have said that the game will be based on tabletop rules unless there is some overriding reason not to. There isn't, in this case. Your slow-azz Cicada will just have to be over-cooled.

[LarkinOmega]

Honestly they should LET everyone launch under the requirement. Just have them explode from overheating earlier on the Heat Bar. Say, 10% under for each missing heatsink. That would balance quite nicely.

[627]

Kittamaru, on 02 December 2012 - 08:42 PM, said:

I don't particularly care if the TT rules require 10 HS minimum... enough of the game ahs deviated from the TT rules that trying to stay "pure TT" is pointless at this point...

This game is named mechwarrior and not "random-FPS-with-mechs".

You know the golf rules? There is no referee in golf so the players had to look at each other with fair sportsmanship.
And in the rulebooks, there is a fine saying:

You can't decide to follow or ignore a certain rule. When you do that, you'll just play a game with a white ball and a club, but you'll not playing Golf.

And this is Battletech. We want to play with the battletech rules.

Edited by 627, 03 December 2012 - 02:46 AM.

[Troy Gardenhire]

Long time since I really had a look into discussions like this.
Last time I said something like

627, on 03 December 2012 - 02:46 AM, said:

And this is Battletech. We want to play with the battletech rules.

I was flamed that I'm a stupid TT player (no, it was NOT you),

Thank you very much for your post! This is exactly my feeling about this game!!!

Sorry for OT, but I had to write this!

[627]

Joke is, i never played the TT game, I just read the novels and played the older MW games. And i'm not a hardcore rules fan;i don't want to shoot only once in ten seconds, i don't want rolled random hits. We need customized rules to fit a computer game and balance for weapons and so on. But the "Meta" rules like how to build a mech, everything that don't affect direct gameplay can stay like TT.

[wanderer]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 02 December 2012 - 10:49 AM, said:

This is correct. it is horrid for mechs like the commando to be forced to take 4-6 tons of heatsinks because we want to run a smaller engine. the commando is currently horribly gimped with choices due to this.

Except that the game also gives you a discount on the engine weight in the process of taking said smaller engine right now to compensate for having to bring it up to it's proper 10 HS.

It's not gimped in the least. The weight on a 100-rated engine package is the same as it would be in TT if you combined the same parts MWO does.

[Corvus Antaka]

wanderer, on 04 December 2012 - 06:36 AM, said:

Except that the game also gives you a discount on the engine weight in the process of taking said smaller engine right now to compensate for having to bring it up to it's proper 10 HS.

It's not gimped in the least. The weight on a 100-rated engine package is the same as it would be in TT if you combined the same parts MWO does.

Yeah. To bad we aren't rolling dice in this game.

[Mawai]

Once again

ALL engines include 10 heat sinks - there is NO additional weight cost for these heat sinks - they are included with the engine and ALL engines have them. The weight of engines in MWO HAS been REDUCED compared to the reference values in the table top game so that when these heat sinks are added back to an MWO mech ... the total weight of MWO engine + heat sinks is the correct number. (The MWO engine weight actually also includes the gyro and cockpit weight so that when the heat sink weight is removed you don't get negative engine weights).

These heat sinks don't cost ANY extra weight - they are part of the engine and ALL engines have 10. Small engines can not fit all ten so the ones that don't fit have to be mounted separately in the chassis.

So ... the short answer is that yes the flea will have 10 heat sinks sine the heat sinks COME with the engine.

[Joe Luck]

Do you know what would solve this argument? PGI actually putting a little indicator on the side for the weight of the gyro and cockpit so people can visually see the tonnage. I think it's dumb that when I buy an engine I get the "cockpit" included. If I remember right the cockpit and gyro in btech can be customized depending on purpose. It would make sense for them to have that as an item to visually manipulate otherwise "they" might have to redo the mechlab all over again just to get that working....

BTW... these rules explained in (Battletech 35100) - "Classic Battletech Introductory Rulebook" released 2006. Some previous versions do not mention this....

[Dayuhan]

Kittamaru, on 02 December 2012 - 08:42 PM, said:

I dont' know why you are saying this... I'm running a Cicada with a Standard 150 engine... and I need to use 4 tonnes to add 4 DHS (and yes, it does adjust my tonnage based on adding/removing them!)

As it is currently built, my Cicada runs a heat efficiency of 1.44... I would be plenty fine removing two heat sinks and adding more ammo, but I can't because of this stupid requirement.

I don't particularly care if the TT rules require 10 HS minimum... enough of the game ahs deviated from the TT rules that trying to stay "pure TT" is pointless at this point...

The engine originally comes with 10 Standard Heat Sinks. The tonnage of the engine reflects having those ten heat sinks already installed. When you install the "extra" heat sinks in to a larger engine you are adding to the ten heat sinks that are already there. So when you see an Engine with two heat sink slots what this actually means is that the engine has the space to fit twelve heat sinks (but only ten come installed by default). When you add the extra two heat sinks then your tonnage is increased by the weight of those heat sinks (two tonnes).

Conversely, when you have a really small rated engine it still comes with the ten required heat sinks for the engine, but now the engine is too small for all ten heat sinks to fit - so a few of them have to be placed outside the engine using critical slots in your torso. However, the tonnage for the original ten heat sinks is included in the weight and cost of the engine.

[Josh Davion]

It's not that each Mech needs 10 HS; every ENGINE needs at least 10 HS.

[DoktorVivi]

If you have to have 10 heat sinks in EVERY engine, it seems counter-intuitive not to have them integrated into it, and especially stupid to let you remove some of them.