36 replies to this topic

[Basileous Dikaou Menandrou]

The thought occurred to me the other day of how limiting or not the MechLab will be. The example that got me thinking was the difference between the Centurion and the Dragon. Whilst having very similar armaments they do in fact behave in very different ways due to their different movement profiles. The Dragon is far faster due to its XL engine and the extra weight afforded by its use and the use of the AC/5 rather than the Centurions AC/10.

My question is this:

What is preventing me from placing a standard engine in a Dragon, dropping the speed to the same as that of a Centurion and swapping the AC/5 for an AC/10? This would leave me with what amounts to a Centurion with ~8 tons of extra space to play with. As far as I know the engine weights for output speed are the same for the two machines, but I could be wrong here.

The implications of this while not being immediately felt strike me as interesting as once(getting enough money to make the changes)/if people can do this there will be little point to using the Centurion in its standard role as you can just grab a Dragon and throw two more tons of armor on as well as up gun the LRM racks or the MDLasers using the crits you opened up by swapping the engines.

On a side note the idea of having a Dragon with a AC/10, LLas and a LRM-15 and a MLas seems pretty cool. As that is not a bad setup at all from what I can tell.

Menandrou

[SuomiWarder]

Well the main issue is that a DRG-1N Dragon as shown in the screen shots and vids so far has a Vlar 300 standard engine. Not an XL. So you could downgrade the engine to a smaller one that has Hunback speed and probably gain 4 tons (that's about average for a 1 hex speed change but I don't feel like looking it up right now).

Now once you get the C-Bills I suppose you could get an XL engine for your Dragon, and a slower one, and get that extra weight you want. I will guess that MWO will model the fact that an XL engine spills out into both side torsos for 3 spaces (something never modelled in say MechWarrior 4) so if ..make that "when"... you lose your left or right torso, you will suffer engine crits where your non XL Dragon would still be chugging along just fine.

[Basileous Dikaou Menandrou]

Ahh I see I thought the Dragon model we were presented with was mounted with an XL engine. Either way my question still stands, by reducing the engine speed of the Dragon to that of the Centurion and trading the AC/5 for a AC/10 what is it but an up gunned or more armored Centurion at that point?

[Ethicus]

I think what the Devs need to do is give each faction a certain amount of mechs. Kurita will have the Dragon and the Centurion with Davion. That way, even if the dragon is able to have the same armament, because they are from a different faction, It gives people a reason to join different factions

Even if the Dragon might be called a better version of the centurion if you arm it right, because its in a different faction, its justified. Kurita might not have something as epic as an Atlas or something, though their focus in MW:O might be strong medium or heavy mechs

The same thing can go for each faction. one might have the best light mechs, medium, heavy, assault.
or one might use PPCs or Guass rifles more

[PANZERBUNNY]

Ethicus, on 10 May 2012 - 08:43 PM, said:

I think what the Devs need to do is give each faction a certain amount of mechs. Kurita will have the Dragon and the Centurion with Davion. That way, even if the dragon is able to have the same armament, because they are from a different faction, It gives people a reason to join different factions

Even if the Dragon might be called a better version of the centurion if you arm it right, because its in a different faction, its justified. Kurita might not have something as epic as an Atlas or something, though their focus in MW:O might be strong medium or heavy mechs

The same thing can go for each faction. one might have the best light mechs, medium, heavy, assault.
or one might use PPCs or Guass rifles more

No faction specific mechs from what I can tell. This prevents faction whining about overpowered options.

[Motionless]

Quote

How far can we really take the mechlab?

3rd base.

[Zakatak]

There must be some inherent disadvantage that would split mechs like the Centurion and Dragon or Commando and Cicada apart. Some kind of balancing method beyond increased repair costs and upkeep. Perhaps heavy mechs show up alot brighter on radar?

[Redshift2k5]

We don't have much detail yet on what engine modifications will be available in the MechLab. Engines will probably be pretty expensive.

Just freeing up raw tonnage isn't going to be enough, though, you will also need sufficient hardpoints and critical slots in the locations you want to add new weaponry. Upgrading some of the AC, or the LRMs, or the lasers should be possible but probably not upgrading all of them

Also every faction can have any mech, but not at the same price, giving different houses a somewhat different army composition.

[Helmer]

There are also other intangible benefits that we do not know about yet. Namely, how many modules can each chassis take? How quickly does each 'mech turn, torso twist, get up to max speed? The Dragon, being a heavy, will probably be slightly larger and easier to hit.

Guess it will be interested to see , once we get to try matching a Dragon with a Centurions load out and see how each perform.

Good question.


Cheers.

[Kaemon]

Basileous Dikaou Menandrou, on 10 May 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

'Basileous Dikaou Menandrou

Dude, I hope you're piloting heavies, cause your name will never fit on a light (unless maybe the raven).



The Mechlab is awesome, and the sky is really the limit (actually I guess the hardpoints are the limit, but you get what I'm saying). They could probably make a game just of messing around in the mechlab.

[Redshift2k5]

Helmer, on 11 May 2012 - 04:58 AM, said:

There are also other intangible benefits that we do not know about yet. Namely, how many modules can each chassis take? How quickly does each 'mech turn, torso twist, get up to max speed? The Dragon, being a heavy, will probably be slightly larger and easier to hit.

Guess it will be interested to see , once we get to try matching a Dragon with a Centurions load out and see how each perform.

Good question.


Cheers.

Other less-obvious traits will be torso twist (both speed and amount of turn), weapon convergence time, and the placement of weapons... Dragon has some of it's weapon mounts higher than the Centurion's lower torso m.lasers, but the Centurion may offer better torso movement, or even have more room for enhancing modules.

Looking at the Centurion art again, I forgot how much i liked that mech I love the Dragon too, though, and with so much overlap in role and loadout, not sure which I'd prefer to bring to the battlefield.

[Bryan Ekman]

Things that we have not discussed much:

• Max Torso Rotation
  
• Torso Rotation Speed
  
• Arm Speed
  
• Pitch Speed
  
• Cockpit design
  
• Mech Height
  
• Arms/No Arms
  
• Module Slots

These are all custom to mechs, giving them a very distinct feel.

One other note. The Dragon is a Jenner killer. Our AC2s and 5s chew through their armour.

[AlanEsh]

I don't think the mech lab should allow engine tech (standard for XL or vice versa) or internal structure swaps. If players want an XL engine or endo-steel, they should buy the mech variant that has these features, from the factory/dealership.

I see Bryan's bullet list of less-than-obvious differences between mech A and mech B, but I don't think these are enough differentiation to prevent the Dragon (mod 1) = Centurion effect that an overly flexible mech lab will allow.

If you're taking votes, please place mine under the "we're modding mechs, not rebuilding them from the skeleton up" in regards to mechlab capabilities.

[CoffiNail]

Bryan Ekman, on 11 May 2012 - 06:23 AM, said:

One other note. The Dragon is a Jenner killer. Our AC2s and 5s chew through their armour.

Dragon is OP, nerf it now!

Great to hear AC2 and 5 will be a good viable weapon choice!

[XTRMNTR2K]

CoffiNail, on 11 May 2012 - 06:32 AM, said:

Great to hear AC2 and 5 will be a good viable weapon choice!

Seconded.

This sounds like they will indeed feature quite high rates of fire, making them useful against fast Mechs like the Jenner. Nice.

[Bryan Ekman]

Angelicon, on 11 May 2012 - 06:31 AM, said:

I don't think the mech lab should allow engine tech (standard for XL or vice versa) or internal structure swaps. If players want an XL engine or endo-steel, they should buy the mech variant that has these features, from the factory/dealership.

I see Bryan's bullet list of less-than-obvious differences between mech A and mech B, but I don't think these are enough differentiation to prevent the Dragon (mod 1) = Centurion effect that an overly flexible mech lab will allow.

If you're taking votes, please place mine under the "we're modding mechs, not rebuilding them from the skeleton up" in regards to mechlab capabilities.

I'd wait for the game to launch. We're not seeing this effect yet.

[Redshift2k5]

Obviously a Dragon (modded to carry the same weapons, or better, than the Centurion) with have clear advantages in terms of armor, speed, and tonnage. Will the Centurion have better acceleration and torso movement, and will that be a strong enough factor to make the match more even? Probably not. The amount of modules equippable by the Centurion is probably noticeably higher than the Dragon, though, giving it more flexibility and - potentially - some very powerful battlefield tools.

MWO is about a lot more than the various one on one matchups

[Grinner]

All this talk of Dragons, I just hope the Grand Dragon variants are available or that I can modify a basic Dragon to be one. The Grand Dragon has better armorment and a faster movement curve, so long as you don't mind the extra 8 million cbills for the XL engine and its added fragility.

Edited by Grinner, 11 May 2012 - 07:31 AM.

[Major Tom]

Bryan Ekman, on 11 May 2012 - 06:23 AM, said:

One other note. The Dragon is a Jenner killer. Our AC2s and 5s chew through their armour.

This is an interesting statement. I don't want to read too much into it, but what makes a an Autocannon so effective against a Jenner? does it have a wide spread, rapid fire, heat seeking? An AC5 does the same damage (presumably) as a Md Laser, and significanlty less damage than an SRM6 or PPC what makes it superior against a Jenner compared to those?

[Redshift2k5]

I would imagine the low-caliber ACs have the potential to do a lot of damage in a shorter timeframe, since it builds up so much less heat.

Jenners are fast and agile, so when you do have a good shot at one, you better make it count. The AC/5 should do more damage in a short time frame vs a laser that might build up excess heat.

Dogfighting with fighter jets use very very high speed ballistics to get as many shells on target during a very short window of opportunity. A Jenner isn't quite as fast, but a similar tactic of high ROF during a short target dwell time should put quite a few dents in a Jenner that isn't careful.