39 replies to this topic

[Tuku]

After putting in a support ticket asking for clerification on this topic and calming down after reciving a response I have decided to type up this sugestion for PGI.

First some background.

I play with a group of people where we rarely have 8 on at the same time.....Normally the numbers waver between 4 and 6 and so with current Matchmaking rules we have to split teams and do other things of that nature. This is fine for now but we where hoping for an end to that with matchmaking phase 2. Originally any group size up to 7 was going to be fine and 8 would be 8v8 only. I can see how this would be bad for pugs and possibly why they made the choice to change phase 2 to this. http://mwomercs.com/...79-matchmaking/

Under this new version of Matchmaking Phase 2 there would be 2 modes....a mode where 2-3-4 man groups would be matched agianst other 2-3-4 man groups with pugs filling in empty slots only but with a 4 man maximum and all the normal weight class matchmaking rules apply. Then there is 8 man mode where you would only be grouped with another 8man premade and 8 is the minimum with no restrictions or matching based on weight class ....a free for all.

This got me a bit frustrated, I could not believe my eyes and so I sent in a support ticket asking for clarification You see under this new phase 2 match making 5-6-7 man groups would not be allowed. This is the response I got back.

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Reppu (MechWarrior® Online™)
Dec 01 10:01 (PST)

Hello Tuku,
Groups of 5, 6 or 7 will not be able to launch, even in Phase 3. The reason for this is that a 7-man premade against a public group has too wide of an advantage, and if we set a 7man group to be in the full premade matchmaking queue, it wouldn't be an even match either as that 8th slot would not be filled (or would be filled with a random public player that wouldn't be part of your team efforts for the most part)
8 player groups will NEVER be matched up against anything other than other 8 player groups.
4(or less) player groups will only be matched up against other 4(or less) player groups, doesn't necessarily need to be equal, with the rest of the slots being filled by a mix of other small groups and random solo players.

Regards,
Reppu
Senior GameMaster
MechWarrior® Online™

It seems that even in phase three 5-6-7 mans will not be allowed with the current incarnation of the rules. This becomes a very large annoyance for my group of friends who despite the bugs still enjoy and support MWO on a daily basis. It is never any fun to be the 5th man to pop on only to find out that you have to go into a pug because the group is full....or worse yet break up a current group to include another person. Now when a 6th joins it becomes a bit better because we can possibly break into 2 groups of 3 but still that is time on restructuring our group that could be spent playing one or two more matches and having fun together.

So I responded to the support ticket and let him know about my concerns and they replied with.

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Reppu (MechWarrior® Online™)
Dec 01 13:17 (PST)

Hello Tuku,
I can see your point. I would suggest to keep giving your feedback in the suggestion forums about this - the devs will value a solid discussion more than a single ticket (since it would generally involve a bigger number of players)
It's also possible that this will come in the future, but I'm not too sure how it would be done.
If you're group of 5, 6 or 7 players were to launch, would you prefer to be matched up other premade groups or pugs?
If you are a group of 5 and would prefer to be matched up against a premade group, configuring the matchmaker to only match you against other groups of 5 would make it a lot longer before finding matches. If you're in a group of 7 and want to be matched up against pugs, well you wouldn't have much of a challenge for the most part, not to mention pugs wouldn't like it either.
Part of the reason for this is based on game lore. A lance of Mechs is 4 Mechs. The idea behind a full 8 player groups is two lances, usually with different areas of expertise.

Regards,
Reppu
Senior GameMaster
MechWarrior® Online™

I will take a moment and answer his questions each in turn here publicly to express my views first and then move on .

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If you're group of 5, 6 or 7 players were to launch, would you prefer to be matched up other premade groups or pugs?

Premdes only! Pugstomping....while great for my wallet is horribly boring after you run your 4th or 5th 2 min match in a row where your team basically marches over the enemy team and stops for nothing. The best matches I have had came down to the wire....The kills staying even for the entire game...multiple flanks and counter flanks....one mistake gets you a dead mech....A pile of destruction laying across the battlefield and it comes down to 2 mechs circling each other each with heavy damage and weapons destroyed .....now THAT is fun.

Quote

If you are a group of 5 and would prefer to be matched up against a premade group, configuring the matchmaker to only match you against other groups of 5 would make it a lot longer before finding matches. If you're in a group of 7 and want to be matched up against pugs, well you wouldn't have much of a challenge for the most part, not to mention pugs wouldn't like it either.

To that I say this, when I say 5-6-7 groups should only be matched with other premades....I mean that they should be matched with any premade that is 7 or less....Not 5s with 5s and 6s with 6s because the man is right, that would slow finding a group to a crawl. I could see how some would say "But if I am in a 4man and I am matched with a 7man on the other side do we really have any hope of winning? " Well I look at it this way. If there is a 4man and a 7 man comes up to be matched with it....the system should try to find another 2 or 3 man to stick with the 4 man and fill the last slot with a pug....If it cant then 4 pugs it is but I think that this would do allot to even the playing field. Of course it would require people to use words in game but....that is a risk they will just have to take. This would also solve the problem of pugs worrying about a 7man enemy team and all they have with a 4....if it can be set up so that as much as possible there would premades grouped together in the same 8 drop then they would conceivably get more pug vs pug matches.

The problem that I see with not having 5-6-7 man groups available is one of fun essentially. When you get 5 guys together to play mechwarrior you all want to jump into the same match and see the same wild weird wacky and amazing things happen....Laugh when you accidently TK your buddy because he walked infront of your AC20 or make fun of bad load outs on other mechs together If you have to break up into multiple teams or leave one guy out of the fun because of group size restrictions that becomes not as fun anymore because one or two of your friends aren't there to see that amazing match you just had...Yea you can tell the story afterward but it is just not as good as being there.


I don't have all the answers....I am one guy with his own biases and such but I would like the discussion on this topic to continue and stay at the top of the list so that the devs see it. I would also love to see what those who pug exclusively and have been the "victem" of pug stomps all to often think of this idea as well. Without a counter point a discussion becomes a statement.

In closing I would just like to ask the PGI Devs PLEASE find a way to make 5-6-7 man groups work and still be fair to pugs....And when you have an idea PLEASE let us know what that is. I know I will give constructive feedback on it.

PLEASE

Picture goes here of puppy dog eyes but for some reason the thing wont let me post it

Edited by Tuku, 03 December 2012 - 02:21 AM.

[blah40000]

8 man premades are coming back on tuesday (12, 04, 2012. two days from now).

[Marukeru]

Honestly, I don't have any counter argument. I can only bolster your point and say that I agree with your views.
Primarily, I agree most with the issue of leaving your friends out due to the exemption of 5-7 man teams.

If there are 4 of us playing and 1 guy shows up and says "You guys have room for one more?" of course we all want to shout "Heck yes! Get in here and rock some faces with us!" However, currently we cannot due that, and with the current direction of Matchmaking, we won't be able to still.

I think that if you have a premade group of 5-7, then you should easily be able to fill the rest of the party. Matchmaking could prioritize other premades to fill that gap and expand its search should those groups not be found.

Example: I run a 5-man premade. Matchmaking would then search for a 3-man premade first. If that fails, it would search for a 2-man and a single player. If it failed to find a 2-man then it would grab instead 2 additional singles.
Basically, Matchmaking would always TRY to group varying sizes of premades to form a whole team, however it would fall back to PUGs as a last resort.
Any organized team should be able to rally PUGs and get the team to work as a whole, even with a weaker communication to those PUGs versus their own premade group (via Teamspeak or what ever you use).



I am a firm beleiver, however, that any premade 8-man team should only be pitted against another premade 8-man. HOWEVER, I will say that if there is no other premade 8-man at the time, rather than failing to find a match over and over again, it maybe search for a 7-man+PUG to play against. Should that fail maybe aim for a 6-man+2-man(or 2 PUGs).
Sadly though, I don't think it would safely be able to move further than that. A 6-man has a decent chance against a 8-man should they be able to rally their 2-man allies or PUGs, but if it went further, the handicap grows more and more leading back to PUG stomping.

blah40000, on 02 December 2012 - 10:59 PM, said:

8 man premades are coming back on tuesday (12, 04, 2012. two days from now).

This isn't a topic about 8-man premade. We know they are bringing that back. You will be able to have a group of 1, 2, 3 or 4, OR 8 only. There will be no 5, 6 or 7 man teams. This is our concern.

Edited by Marukeru, 02 December 2012 - 11:01 PM.

[blah40000]

Marukeru, on 02 December 2012 - 10:59 PM, said:

This isn't a topic about 8-man premade. We know they are bringing that back. You will be able to have a group of 1, 2, 3 or 4, OR 8 only. There will be no 5, 6 or 7 man teams. This is our concern.

sorry, the whole thing was a bit TL;DR and I'm tired.

on-topic, that is just plain silly.

[Bru1zer]

Marukeru, on 02 December 2012 - 10:59 PM, said:

Example: I run a 5-man premade. Matchmaking would then search for a 3-man premade first. If that fails, it would search for a 2-man and a single player. If it failed to find a 2-man then it would grab instead 2 additional singles.
Basically, Matchmaking would always TRY to group varying sizes of premades to form a whole team, however it would fall back to PUGs as a last resort.
Any organized team should be able to rally PUGs and get the team to work as a whole, even with a weaker communication to those PUGs versus their own premade group (via Teamspeak or what ever you use).

Surely this is a better scenario then having to split up groups all the time.
I would rather have to wait a bit longer for matchmaker to find a drop then flat out not be able to play with 5-6-7 people.

Edited by Bru1zer, 03 December 2012 - 12:02 AM.

[Edustaja]

Why would they waste a server with 16 slots so that you could play your 5 vs 5?

[BR0WN_H0RN3T]

Let's look forward to seeing assaults and heavies dominating in lop sided matches once this next patch goes live

Don't know why they mess around with stuff like this when there r bigger issues with the game

[Tuku]

Brown Hornet, on 03 December 2012 - 12:47 AM, said:

Let's look forward to seeing assaults and heavies dominating in lop sided matches once this next patch goes live

Don't know why they mess around with stuff like this when there r bigger issues with the game

That is another topic entirely...We are not speaking about weather not having weight class matchmaking is a good thing in 8mans....we are talking about 5-6-7 man groups.

Edustaja, on 03 December 2012 - 12:31 AM, said:

Why would they waste a server with 16 slots so that you could play your 5 vs 5?

No no no the empty slots would be filled with lone wolves after a premade for both sides is found. always 16 people in any given match.

[Usagi]

my problem with it is that with a 4 man drop, half the team is (likely) lone wolf types...if you get above that, i can easily see this scenario: "boy...i don't want to run against otehr 8 man groups...we're not good enough/have the desire to do this.want to just kill things and laugh at them/other motivation here...I know! lets just make a 7 man group, ignore the one random drop that comes in with us, and crust PUGs cause it's funny!".

Basically, allowing a 7 person group in the "general population" is 95% the same as letting 8 man groups back in it. and when you can decide if you're going to go against organized groups, or (likely) more casual players by the inclusion or exclusion of 1 extra player...that sucks.

[Edustaja]

Yeah. It would just be 7 man groups pugstomping away. Why do it the hard way and bring the eight when you can farm with 7.

[Oderint dum Metuant]

Why not, just code a proper matchmaker that takes the above things into account from the get go.

1-3 people groups should be playing with PUG's, 4Man + goes into the group que system, otherwise group ques will be far too long.

5 Man Premade on each team gets either 2x 3 Man premades to fill out to 8, or a 2 man and 1 lonewolf...im sure i don't have to explain how to make the other numbers add up too 8.......

Or if you don't want to include lone wolves into group play ( they should be but that is another story), then only allow drops of even numbers, 2,4,6,8 then the matchmaker can do some basic maths.

Edit: For clarity the match maker will prioritize matching 8 on 8, and look for alternatives there after.

Edited by DV McKenna, 03 December 2012 - 02:00 AM.

[Kageru Ikazuchi]

To start ... I agree with the OP ... 5/6/7-mech groups should be an option.

Another means of implementation would be something other than third-party comms services (C3 is coming) and faction lobbies (when faction warfare is implemented), where groups looking for additional members can hang while the lone wolves, PUGs, etc. have an opportunity to join.

Hopefully, match making will get better soon ... but I can be patient ...

[Tuku]

Usagi, on 03 December 2012 - 01:25 AM, said:

my problem with it is that with a 4 man drop, half the team is (likely) lone wolf types...if you get above that, i can easily see this scenario: "boy...i don't want to run against otehr 8 man groups...we're not good enough/have the desire to do this.want to just kill things and laugh at them/other motivation here...I know! lets just make a 7 man group, ignore the one random drop that comes in with us, and crust PUGs cause it's funny!".

Basically, allowing a 7 person group in the "general population" is 95% the same as letting 8 man groups back in it. and when you can decide if you're going to go against organized groups, or (likely) more casual players by the inclusion or exclusion of 1 extra player...that sucks.

Edustaja, on 03 December 2012 - 01:34 AM, said:

Yeah. It would just be 7 man groups pugstomping away. Why do it the hard way and bring the eight when you can farm with 7.

These are the things that would have to be looked at before something like this was implamented. Any system where Lone Wolves are going to fill in empty slots the possiblity of pugstomping and inbalance is there. There will also always be the greifer types who will game any system that PGI puts in just so that they can pick on Lone Wolves. What they would have to do is minimize that risk as much as possible.

Right now come patch day people will do it anyway. They will just sync drop two 4 mans and pugstomp anything that they come across with an 8 man premaid. Still your scenario is a problem for Lone Wolves.

My fix would be to make sure that the system matches higher number groups (5+) with only other higher number groups when possible. That is when matchmaking begins it has a time frame where it tries to wait for other large number premades....after that it reverts to smaller number premaids(4 or less) and Lone wolves. That would minimize the chances that a 4 man was matched up with a 6 or 7. As I said there will never be a 100% chance that someone wont find a way to break the system but its about minimizing risks for the greater number of players.

[Edustaja]

Meanwhile you can go to the public TS3 server and get a couple of backup players from LFG...

[Tuku]

DV McKenna, on 03 December 2012 - 01:49 AM, said:

Why not, just code a proper matchmaker that takes the above things into account from the get go.

1-3 people groups should be playing with PUG's, 4Man + goes into the group que system, otherwise group ques will be far too long.

5 Man Premade on each team gets either 2x 3 Man premades to fill out to 8, or a 2 man and 1 lonewolf...im sure i don't have to explain how to make the other numbers add up too 8.......

Or if you don't want to include lone wolves into group play ( they should be but that is another story), then only allow drops of even numbers, 2,4,6,8 then the matchmaker can do some basic maths.

Edit: For clarity the match maker will prioritize matching 8 on 8, and look for alternatives there after.

I like your idea as well.

[Tuku]

Edustaja, on 03 December 2012 - 02:06 AM, said:

Meanwhile you can go to the public TS3 server and get a couple of backup players from LFG...

Yes that is a fix in the mean time but still thats a possible 10 or 15 min+ that I need to spend to find 3 people so we can drop 8. That still has the problem of 5-15 min that we aren't dropping and having fun with the people that we know just so that we can cope with not having the ability to drop 5 or 6 or 7 with the people that we already know. It seems a bit selfish and insular but I know that we have built our group from just finding stand out lone wolves and contacting them via the in game messaging thingy.

Keep in mind also that I say 5-15 min because there are not always people in LFG (We use the NGNG TS server for teamspeak anyway)

That said this is still a good solution for now and one that we will most likely use.

Edited by Tuku, 03 December 2012 - 02:17 AM.

[Hoshi Toranaga]

I fully support this thread. 5-7 man groups are essential. As 8 only will mean if you have one player leave then you will be dead in the water or have to split and time drops... for boring pugstomping...

It would be so easy to actually balance this without the need for a new grouping feature.

Simply let us flag ourself as group/unit players. Match equal numbers of flagged players and there we go.
Run a simple statistic for abusers (aka group players that do not flag themselves) and match "A" (=abuser) flagged players with group/unit flagged players. This can be done with a simple statistic algorithm that any child can implement.

Much simpler UI, no issue with group sizes etc. etc. etc.
It could be so simple if you just look at it.

[Turbo Corvair]

I think that this might be ok as long as the people in the pre-made group all tick off a warning that they will be most likely matched against a full team of 8.

The PUG's who get into these groups.. especially a seven man group.. luck out... the pre-made accepted that they will be at a disadvantage.

[Tuku]

Turbo Corvair, on 03 December 2012 - 03:11 AM, said:

I think that this might be ok as long as the people in the pre-made group all tick off a warning that they will be most likely matched against a full team of 8.

The PUG's who get into these groups.. especially a seven man group.. luck out... the pre-made accepted that they will be at a disadvantage.

That is the thing. 8 mans should always be handled the same way that Phase 2 handles them....ONLY 8 premade vs 8 premade....I do not think that 8 mans should be matched agianst a 5 or a 6 for the Lone Wolves sake though I would not complain if that is the way it goes.

[Darkblood]

Yes! Give people the option to play in 5-6-7. It will stink very much to have a group of 8 going on and then a guy says: "wow, it´s late, have to go to bed, see you later guys" and it´s over for the other 7...

Also, it´s not that complicated match 7 vs 7 (we already get this kind of matches now anyway), and you handle 6s and 5s by grouping them with a 2 or 3-man group (also 6 vs 6 would not be that bad). That way no true PUG (dropping alone) ever get to face the premade boogie man.