67 replies to this topic

[Dukarriope]

Speculation thus far has suggested that the iconic Timber Wolf (or Mad Cat, if you prefer) will appear once the Clan Invasion starts on release, but I was thinking a little.

Based on the current system where we mount objects on specific parts of the chassis and how the XL engines spill into side torsos, it seems like the Timber Wolf would be something really easy to destroy.
Why?

Because the Timber Wolf's iconic silhouette comes from its Catapult and Marauder design mix, it possesses both a large pair of missile rack boxes on the shoulders and a pair of arms. Following the current mounting system, it would seem plausible to believe that the missile racks would be by default the Left and Right Torsos. The Timber Wolf, canonically, is powered by a XL375. According to Sarna, clan versions of XL engines take up an extra two thirds of space, but likewise intrude into the side torsos.
Thus, the clan XL engine should apparently take 10 critical slots (6x 1.66 = 9.96 ≈ 10), likely resulting in 2 critical slots used by the engine in the side torsos.

By now you might have seen where this is going - the Timber Wolf mounts a XL engine, which means it will go belly up as soon as a side-torso is destroyed, but if the big missile racks are placed as side torsos, that makes them an easy target to quickly destroy the engine of a Timber Wolf. An easy solution would be to make the missiles the arms of the Wolf like a Catapult, but then that would intrude on the actual arms.

So this of course poses the question of how can the Timber Wolf be made into something that makes sense without changing the current system? Or will PGI simply do what some people expect and leave one of the most iconic Battlemechs in existence out of the game?

[potatoparrot]

They won't leave it out of the game, they will introduce it most likely with the missile racks as LT/RT and its canonical weakness should either be destroyed. Simple fact is, just because a 'mech is cool looking and iconic doesn't mean it's going to be without crippling weakness.

As a Mad Dog pilot (Vulture to the freebirth toads amongst you) I am going to have a honking great NOSE of a CT that is begging to be shot from every angle. I intend to work around this weakness. Timber Wolf pilots will, likewise, have to learn to work around their weakness.

[Havyek]

Plus, as I recall, part of the benefits of Clan XL engines is that taking side torso damage (or destruction) does not destroy the engine, therefor won't destroy the 'Mech.

[Nathan Xain]

I'm sure I read somewhere that in TT (I've never played though), that having the side torso destroyed didn't always take the engine out? But then I suppose clan case might also help?

It would be a little strange if one of the most iconic and recognisable mechs in the whole franchise could be killed so easily...

#edit# beaten to it,

Edited by Nathan Xain, 03 December 2012 - 04:52 AM.

[Redshift2k5]

Are the Timber Wolf's missile racks on omnipods or built in? I don't recall seeing a Timber Wolf without them. It would seem reasonable to remove such a tempting target and greatly reduce the mech's silhouette.

The clan XL engines take 2 crits per side torso; they still require 3 crits to be destroyed. Losing one side troso results in 2 crits dealt to the engine, and the engine will continue to function at reduced capacity

Edited by Redshift2k5, 03 December 2012 - 04:54 AM.

[Strum Wealh]

Indeed - with an XL Engine (that it shouldn't ever be able to change out, as hopefully the normal limitations of OmniMechs could be implemented to make OmniMechs in general a balanced option versus Standard BattleMechs), large-and-prominent side-torsos, and a large Catapult-like canopy (in keeping with its iconic appearance), the Mad Cat would (as it should) have a number of weaknesses to serve as balancing counterpoints to its maxed-out armor, excellent speed (for its weight), and fearsome and flexible weapon/equipment loadouts.

(Besides, Clan XL engines still need three critical hits to destroy, so one would have to take out both side-torsos to take down a Mad Cat in that manner...)

[Edustaja]

1. Clan XL takes 2 critical in each torso
2. 3 engine criticals kill a mech

Thus the Timberwolf can survive a destroyed side torso.

There are two ways to go about the large missile pods:
- They can be reduced in size and streamlined with the rest of the torso.
- Treated as separate hit locations as it was in MW4
- Left as is for the obvious disadvantage that it brings

I'm in favour of the first option even if it slightly alters the iconic hunched look.

[potatoparrot]

For those confused, OP did state in his message that he was aware of Clan XL Engine mechanics.

I'll highlight them here:

Engines are destroyed when they take 3 Critical Hits. This is true for all Engines. Inner Sphere XL Engines take up 3 Crits in each side torso, meaning side torso destruction inflicts 3 Crits to the Engine, destroying the 'mech. Clan XL Engines take up 2 Crits in the side torso, meaning destruction of a side torso will notdestroy the 'mech, it will "only" significantly reduce its maximum speed and also give it a stacking heat penalty.

At least, that's TT implementation.

[Nathan Xain]

Going from the older artwork, I always would have thought that the missile pods were part of the arms, but as I didn't play TT I always wondered about it...

Edited by Nathan Xain, 03 December 2012 - 04:57 AM.

[Lightfoot]

The missile racks are external weapon pods. Not sure how MWO will handle this since some Atlas models have a gun-rack and we have not seen this. Likely to reach the side torso on a Mad Cat you will have to aim very well or take the arm off first.

[Bluescuba]

I agree with the post above... The missile racks appear to be more like shoulder mounts, especially considering the limited range of movement of the arms.

In this regard the Timberwolf should have similar side torso to a catapult.

[Sifright]

Timberwolf, is going to be incredibly trivial to destroy.

Catapult sized center torso *The biggest you can bloody well get on a heavy*

With side torso hit boxes that would make a cataphract look small.


Yea, us catapult users will enjoy turning the Timberwolf into slag instantly.

Bluescuba, on 03 December 2012 - 05:02 AM, said:

I agree with the post above... The missile racks appear to be more like shoulder mounts, especially considering the limited range of movement of the arms.

In this regard the Timberwolf should have similar side torso to a catapult.

The problem with this idea is that doing that means you wont have enough crit slots to actually build any of its stock variants.

[Bluescuba]

Sifright, on 03 December 2012 - 05:02 AM, said:

The problem with this idea is that doing that means you wont have enough crit slots to actually build any of its stock variants.

Not sure this is true... I would imagine that it would be totally upto pgi as to how many critical slots each location is given. So the arms of the timberwolf could easily have enough slots for say 1 x lrm20 and 1 x ppc or 1 x erll

[Drenzul]

1. The pods should not be torso locations, I expect this to be added as new locations
2. The Timberwolf in height e.t.c. should actually be smaller than a Cat, allowing it more dodging.
3. The cockpit will likely be smaller than a catapults as well.

If they don't make it a decent mech, they would be kicking themselves in the face, hard!

[Strum Wealh]

Nathan Xain, on 03 December 2012 - 04:56 AM, said:

Going from the older artwork, I always would have thought that the missile pods were part of the arms, but as I didn't play TT I always wondered about it...

Lightfoot, on 03 December 2012 - 05:00 AM, said:

The missile racks are external weapon pods. Not sure how MWO will handle this since some Atlas models have a gun-rack and we have not seen this. Likely to reach the side torso on a Mad Cat you will have to aim very well or take the arm off first.

Bluescuba, on 03 December 2012 - 05:02 AM, said:

I agree with the post above... The missile racks appear to be more like shoulder mounts, especially considering the limited range of movement of the arms.

In this regard the Timberwolf should have similar side torso to a catapult.

Nope - the missile racks are part of the side-torsos; it can be seen on the BT record sheet (viewable here).

[Seijin Dinger]

Also please note that a Clan XL engine only takes up 2 critical slots instead of 3 in each of the L/R Torso, and it takes 3 criticals on an engine to destroy it, so it will have the added benefit that you will need to destroy both Left and Right Torso to take the thing down using the XL weakness

[Stone Wall]

The Mad Cat was the best MW3 stock mech. But we will see what PGI does with it.

[GODzillaGSPB]

They could also simply change how the game engine works and add two additional part to the mech. I don't believe that this will tear a whole in the space-time-continuum...

[potatoparrot]

GODzillaGSPB, on 03 December 2012 - 05:11 AM, said:

They could also simply change how the game engine works and add two additional part to the mech. I don't believe that this will tear a whole in the space-time-continuum...

Balance rammifications.

If they add more parts, that means that the 'mech would either have more armour than other 'mechs of its weight (not fair) or have to split its armour between more locations (also not fair).

[Strum Wealh]

GODzillaGSPB, on 03 December 2012 - 05:11 AM, said:

They could also simply change how the game engine works and add two additional part to the mech. I don't believe that this will tear a whole in the space-time-continuum...

Nor would leaving it as it should be...?