425 replies to this topic

[Sug]

"Despite what mr. Bullock said, trials are not fine and they're not fun (because stock configs from TT don't work with 3x heat generation of MWO). "

They don't have 3x heat genneration. Weapons just cycle faster than TT. Just don't fire your weapons as soon as they're ready.

I'm terrible and I can get kills with the trial Awesome. It's called chain fire.

[wanderer]

beniliusbob, on 03 December 2012 - 08:04 AM, said:

They really aren't that bad if you're not bad.

Too bad we hand them to the newbies, who by definition are bad players- from lack of experience. And then we stomp them. Repeatedly.

Trials being stuck in matches with vets in customs is just salt in the wounds- they might die just as much as they would in customs, but it likely wouldn't be nearly as frustrating and they'd probably actually do some damage in the process.

Having a "newbie" Trial 'Mech being an overheating nightmare that rewards firing it's guns with autoshutdowns and/or override explosions does make it *ahem* awesome for suiciding, but that's hardly what we want now, is it?

[buckX]

DoRkZiLLaa, on 03 December 2012 - 08:13 AM, said:

Wrong. They are not "made bad" in comparison to custom mechs. They are less specialized, less tailored to you and your playstyle, and less optimized than a custom mech. So in that sense, they are "worse". But I drop in a trial every so often and do fine in them. The skill barrier isn't hardware, It's taking what you are given FOR FREE and using it in the method it was designed for. (READ: MOTHERF***ING FIRE DISCIPLINE)

As fun as it is to think that all you gains you made after buying your own mech are due to increased skill and the like, that' simply isn't the case. "Fire Discipline" is not the correct answer. These mechs were designed under rules with 10s recycle rates. Because of that, they don't overheat if you only fire them every 10s. You can call that fire discipline, but realistically, it's that with the sweeping changes made to the heat system, the stock mechs all are severely overgunned. Both in TT and MWO, there is an optimal ratio of weapon tonnage to heat sinks, but the recycle change drastically modified where that sweet spot is. Custom mechs can adjust. Stock mechs can't.adjust. I don't think there's a stock build out there that doesn't benefit from removing weapons to add heat sinks, or downgrading ER versions to their non-ER version.

Sug, on 03 December 2012 - 08:18 AM, said:

I'm terrible...It's called chain fire.

Point proven, I guess. Chain fire has no place with energy weapons (depending on how PPC scramble is implemented, it might in the future). Chain firing to conserve heat means you aren't using the full dps on your weapons. Just remove one and add heat sinks. If you really want to stick with your config, then group fire, and fire less often. Your damage will group better, and you can hold out for the perfect shot.

Edited by buckX, 03 December 2012 - 08:25 AM.

[renahzor]

I've read the whole interview, the whole thing just seems completely out of touch with the actual new player experience. Yes good players will be good players regardless of their equipment, but it's silly to suggest a trial/stock mech is ANYWHERE close to as effective as even a slightly customized version. I'm afraid they really don't understand their NPE and how terrible it actually is at this point. I've all but stopped playing, and everyone I've introduced to the game is completely done with it.

The people in this thread saying that putting noobs in better mechs wont help them is also true as long as matchmaking still fails at even the most basic of actual matchmaker functions (splitting players by experience and skill is a hallmark of what these systems do, not an afterthought). Trial mech's are also not designed for this game, they are baseline versions of mechs from Tabletop, which is a completely different environment. They tend to run WAY too hot for MWO, which makes many weapon systems simply wasted tonnage that custom mechs take advantage of. They also split weapon systems across several range categories which is suicide in MWO, you want to gear to be effective at a preferred range not barely passable at all ranges at once.

I'm sorry but when you're going against someone in an identical chassis and they have more effective DPS, speed, armor, ammo and better heat management, saying the stock variant is "fine" is a huge over statement.

[Dechan Fraser]

DoRkZiLLaa, on 03 December 2012 - 08:17 AM, said:

Conversely, if anything it encourages experimentation with builds. "Oh, this free piece of junk doesn't have enough ammo? Looks like that's the first thing on my shopping list..... after a 'Mech, of course." They then either pay to play the game, or grind and complain on the forums about the grinding and the trials.

Or they stop playing the game, which I think is more likely. No one wants to play 10+ hours in a mech that they don't enjoy and why would they want to spend money if their first experience is filled with frustration?

[Alex Wolfe]

Sug, on 03 December 2012 - 08:18 AM, said:

They don't have 3x heat genneration. Weapons just cycle faster than TT. Just don't fire your weapons as soon as they're ready.

Oh, for... ok, space maths time.

Weapons in TT fire once per 10 seconds, doing X amount of heat. Heatsinks dissipate Y amount of heat.

In MWO, weapons fire roughly once per 3 seconds, STILL doing X amount of heat, and heat sinks STILL dissipate Y amount of heat, except for doubles because we don't want Atlases cored in 3 seconds now, do we.

So, if weapons can shoot three times in a 10 second time window, compared to TT once in 10 seconds, the heat generation of so armed mech is ..................... ?

I'll check back next week for your answer .

Sug, on 03 December 2012 - 08:18 AM, said:

I'm terrible and I can get kills with the trial Awesome. It's called chain fire.

Yeah, you sit back there and don't shoot with the weapons you're given, I'm sure the other team appreciates.

Fire discipline is one thing, not being able to core even one mech of your own weight without getting a heart attack is another. They are disfunctional, not fun, crap, and a bad idea. Even worse ones because it's the newbies forced to drive them.

DoRkZiLLaa, on 03 December 2012 - 08:13 AM, said:

MOTHERF***ING FIRE DISCIPLINE

Trial Awesome has 3 ER PPCs, among other weapons which I'll mercifully ignore for now, because they too generate heat and the poor thing has enough problems.

It also has over twenty double heat sinks, and it's still not enough to keep firing ONE of those PPCs. It has three. It can barely afford to keep shooting one.

The mech in question weighs eighty tons, and has the effective sustained damage of 3.3 damage per second.

"Yeah, shoot just one gun on your eighty ton mech with top-of-the-line hardware and you'll be fine! The system isn't completely broken! Yup!"

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 03 December 2012 - 08:35 AM.

[pesco]

DoRkZiLLaa, on 03 December 2012 - 08:13 AM, said:

READ: MOTHERF***ING FIRE DISCIPLINE

READ: LESS DAMAGE

Read: no conclusive argument against the proposition that stock Mechs are suboptimal. Your 80 ton AWS-9M does 30 damage per alpha. That's not much compared to other builds and you call it "discipline" to reduce it even further? I call that hard to justify.

[KingCobra]

Despite all you nay Sayers Russ is right I have played trial mechs since the beginning of beta and have done fine in them I can be competitive as a pug or in a group on comms. Yes there a little hot but once you learn what weapons groups work to keep from shutting down your good to go. Plus when its just trial Vs trial in matchmaking it will be quite fun and balanced as well.(Thanks Russ and Brian) if you do the matchmaker option Trial Vs Trial only.

[Joseph Mallan]

shintakie, on 03 December 2012 - 08:17 AM, said:

Pretty much any stock mech with an XL should never be given as a trial mech with the exception of maybe (very slightly maybe) a light mech. Every other mech is too large of a target to have such a significant weakness to have. On a skilled or partially skilled player it isn't that big a deal because they've learned about twistin their bodies to avoid damage on one area. A new player wont have those skills at all and because the game still doesn't bother to tell you even the most basic stuff about items and equipment they'll lose their LT and explode and have absolutely no clue why that happened.

Really? You think it would be better for a Player to never experience what the weakness of an XL engine is before they have to buy the first one and then find out it's not what they want?

It's better to learn for free the ups and downs of every piece of equipment before wasting your money on something you don't want.

[Sifright]

KingCobra, on 03 December 2012 - 08:29 AM, said:

Despite all you nay Sayers Russ is right I have played trial mechs since the beginning of beta and have done fine in them I can be competitive as a pug or in a group on comms. Yes there a little hot but once you learn what weapons groups work to keep from shutting down your good to go. Plus when its just trial Vs trial in matchmaking it will be quite fun and balanced as well.(Thanks Russ and Brian) if you do the matchmaker option Trial Vs Trial only.

Being able to use a **** to kill an enemy doesn't mean the **** is an effective weapon.

I could run a 5 small laser atlas and kill people.

it's still a stupid build.

Custom mechs are OBJECTIVELY BETTER IN EVERY WAY.

This means TRIAL MECHS ARE OBJECTIVELY WORSE.

Meaning trial mechs are NOT AS GOOD, otherwise described as BAD.

Why does it feel like i'm talking to a five year old who refuses to accept objective reality.

Joseph Mallan, on 03 December 2012 - 08:30 AM, said:

Really? You think it would be better for a Player to never experience what the weakness of an XL engine is before they have to buy the first one and then find out it's not what they want?

Given that as it stands right now newbie gets his right or left torso blown out dies and doesn't know what the difference is, YES.

Joseph Mallan, on 03 December 2012 - 08:30 AM, said:

It's better to learn for free the ups and downs of every piece of equipment before wasting your money on something you don't want.

No.

You know how you let players know about weaknesses like that? You put a bloody item description in.

Most newbies still try and shoot lrms under 180M.

There is nothing telling them they shouldn't.

How is it that you guys don't understand there are so many interelated issues working together that make trials **** in every single way for new players.

Edited by Sifright, 03 December 2012 - 08:34 AM.

[Joseph Mallan]

pesco, on 03 December 2012 - 08:28 AM, said:

READ: LESS DAMAGE

Read: no conclusive argument against the proposition that stock Mechs are suboptimal. Your 80 ton AWS-9M does 30 damage per alpha. That's not much compared to other builds and you call it "discipline" to reduce it even further? I call that hard to justify.

Read as a house soldier you will be paired with several other Assault or heavy Mechs that the House bought for you! Don't work for a House Lord. Do you think the Merc Commander is going to give the FNG the best equipment before he proved his loyalty?

READ: Perspective.

Quote

You know how you let players know about weaknesses like that? You put a bloody item description in.

And then let them try it out. Yes this makes even more sense.

Edited by Joseph Mallan, 03 December 2012 - 08:35 AM.

[DrnkJawa]

Russ is right, trial mechs(most of them) are fine the way they are, you just need to figure out the way to use them

[Sifright]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 December 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

Read as a house soldier you will be paired with several other Assault or heavy Mechs that the House bought for you! Don't work for a House Lord. Do you think the Merc Commander is going to give the FNG the best equipment before he proved his loyalty?

READ: Perspective.

yea because the merc commander is really going to go.

"DOHOHOHOHOH SILLY NEW PILOT YOU MUST USE THIS TERRIBLE AND VERY EXPENSIVE MECH WHICH I COULD MAKE BETTER BY REMOVING TWO OF THOSE PPCS AND PUTTING IN LARGE LASERS AND HEAT SINKS..... BUT YOU ARE A TERRIBLE PILOT AND DONT DESERVE TO RUN A CHEAPER BETTER MECH LOAD OUT DOHOHOHOOHO."

Are you nuts?

Edited by Sifright, 03 December 2012 - 08:37 AM.

[renahzor]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 December 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

Read as a house soldier you will be paired with several other Assault or heavy Mechs that the House bought for you! Don't work for a House Lord. Do you think the Merc Commander is going to give the FNG the best equipment before he proved his loyalty?

READ: Perspective.

And then let them try it out. Yes this makes even more sense.

We're talking about a video game here, one in which you throw new players to the wolves in, as stated, objectively worse equipment in every way, against experienced players in better equipment. It isn't fun.

THAT is perspective.

[Joseph Mallan]

Unless the merc command doesn't have any spare Larges or Sinks> Not every command has a swollen stockpile to work with.

[Alex Wolfe]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 December 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

Read as a house soldier you will be paired with several other Assault or heavy Mechs that the House bought for you! Don't work for a House Lord. Do you think the Merc Commander is going to give the FNG the best equipment before he proved his loyalty?

READ: Perspective.

They are stock configs that are supposed to be workhorses, but work in this game at 1/3rd their canon/lore efficiency.

That's the long and short of it, with all the "House Lord head canon" stripped.

Do you still not see an issue? Not to mention that it's yet another issue, after "oh guys there is a lot of shaking in this game (I didn't know has been for MONTHS)" and "Jenner is good but it needs ECM. Yeeeeah", that shows that few people seem to know what's actually going on in their game.

Edited by Alex Wolfe, 03 December 2012 - 08:40 AM.

[pesco]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 December 2012 - 08:33 AM, said:

Read as a house soldier you will be paired with several other Assault or heavy Mechs that the House bought for you! Don't work for a House Lord. Do you think the Merc Commander is going to give the FNG the best equipment before he proved his loyalty?

Sounds like you know a lot about Community Warfare that we don't. Will "House Players" have no access to the Mechlab? Will merc corps fight in suboptimal builds for lack of C-Bills? I find that highly unlikely.

Edited by pesco, 03 December 2012 - 08:39 AM.

[Sevaradan]

considering they are free and don't have R/R costs they are more than good enough. free mechs should NEVER be able to compete effectively vs an optimized mech baring a massive pilot skill mismatch.

[Sifright]

Joseph Mallan, on 03 December 2012 - 08:37 AM, said:

Unless the merc command doesn't have any spare Larges or Sinks> Not every command has a swollen stockpile to work with.

But they have XL engines and ER ppcs to hand out like candy to rookie pilots.

Skoff.

[John Norad]

"Fire Discipline" is just an insulting euphemism for "accepting that your mech's design is incongruous, inefficient and wasteful".

Learning to fire only 1/3rd of your weapons, or at one third the possible RoF, while highly optimized enemy mechs blow you to smithereens is hardly the best 'first lesson' for new players.
"You can choose between panicking and lose and staying calm and still lose." Yay!

Who could possibly blame them for just uninstalling and playing something that is fun instead?

DrnkJawa, on 03 December 2012 - 08:34 AM, said:

Russ is right, trial mechs(most of them) are fine the way they are, you just need to figure out the way to use them

Sure, and after you have sufficiently honed those skills you buy a Gauss Cat and put them to good use!
Oh wait..

Edited by John Norad, 03 December 2012 - 08:42 AM.