99 replies to this topic

[LethalMezzle]

Nope. Don't bother changing the mechanics of the game to fit builds that weren't designed for the game in the first place.

As for Trial Mechs, make them a customised build rather than a stock one.

[MustrumRidcully]

Vlad Ward, on 03 December 2012 - 01:20 PM, said:

Interesting. You were right.

Heat is definitely treated as an aggregate. That would mean just about any conceivable boat of ML/MPLs would be heat neutral (and thus generate 0 heat) in the proposed system. Christ in a bucket =/

Every? Or only for certain amount of heat sinks? 4 Lasers still produce 4 times the heat per tick as 1 laser, after all. And its heat per second is the aggregate of a full recharge cycle. A laser fires for 0.5 to 1 seconds, but typically has 3 (or more?) seconds of cooldown afterwards. The heat per second value is the value of the entire time frame, not that of it just shooting.

So even if you're heat neutral, your heat will spike a bit, since you're producing the heat for 4 seconds in a single second, and then stop producing heat for 3 seconds, but if you have a heat neutral config, it will take 4 seconds for your sinks to dissipate the accumulated heat.

[Vlad Ward]

MustrumRidcully, on 03 December 2012 - 01:40 PM, said:

Every? Or only for certain amount of heat sinks? 4 Lasers still produce 4 times the heat per tick as 1 laser, after all. And its heat per second is the aggregate of a full recharge cycle. A laser fires for 0.5 to 1 seconds, but typically has 3 (or more?) seconds of cooldown afterwards. The heat per second value is the value of the entire time frame, not that of it just shooting.

So even if you're heat neutral, your heat will spike a bit, since you're producing the heat for 4 seconds in a single second, and then stop producing heat for 3 seconds, but if you have a heat neutral config, it will take 4 seconds for your sinks to dissipate the accumulated heat.

Right, I removed the 0 heat generation part since I was using "Heat Neutral" to mean two different things in my notes. Battletech terminology is a pain in the butt sometimes. A weapons system that's "Heat neutral" in a programming sense is a weapon that generates less heat per server tick while firing than is dissipated, resulting in dH/dT never being a positive number.

Strolling back down to the macroscopic meaning of the term, yeah, heat will be generated, but you'll still never overheat as long as your total Alpha heat is less than your total Heat Capacity (which it is on even a 6-MPL boat).

On the flip side, even a heat-neutral ERPPC build may leave you unable to Alpha strike without shutting down due to the lowered heat capacity.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 03 December 2012 - 01:54 PM.

[Hatachi]

LethalMezzle, on 03 December 2012 - 01:36 PM, said:

Nope. Don't bother changing the mechanics of the game to fit builds that weren't designed for the game in the first place.

As for Trial Mechs, make them a customised build rather than a stock one.

Isn't that a bit of backwards logic? Why would you make a MechWarrior game and build it where at least the better standard variants, such as the Awesome 8Q, would be at least somewhat competitive? It's like making ARMA, granted this game is much more arcade-esque in comparison, and saying the game was not made to use any standard weaponry in anyway and if you want to be competitive you have to use these completely made up weapons or equipment sets.

Edited by Hatachi, 03 December 2012 - 01:49 PM.

[Vlad Ward]

SteelPaladin, on 03 December 2012 - 01:35 PM, said:

Makes sense.

Ick. I want a stock Awesome to be scary, but I don't want to be facing down THAT nightmare. Lunchbacks were enough fun, thank you very much.

I'm starting to wonder if folks weren't right that individual weapon tweaks will be necessary to get things balanced out over a heat system change. It's a lot more work, but MWO just does not make short range a significant enough hazard to deal w/that level of ML boating.

Pretty much. The Medium Laser is just plain stronger than larger weapons. This was intentional in Tabletop because the larger weapons came with the advantage of dealing all of their damage to one component. For example, 2 Medium Lasers may deal about as much damage as a Large laser, but in TT they would likely deal that damage to 2 separate components while they LL would just hit one.

In MWO, all of your medium lasers hit the exact same spot because you're aiming them manually and the large laser becomes woefully underpowered.

Any sort of total Heat system revamp that brings up the power of large Energy weapons will just increase the power of small Energy weapons that much more.

Edited by Vlad Ward, 03 December 2012 - 01:53 PM.

[Naeron66]

Tennex, on 03 December 2012 - 09:01 AM, said:

i mean whats the worst thing that could happen if heat management is good on the stocks? Players go into mech lab and add more weapons since heat sink is so good now? They can't add more weapons to the stock variant because the stocks are already maxed tonnage

Worse thing is that players go in and add more powerful weapons and more HS so that they retain good heat management.

Dropping in Endo and upgrading all energy weapons would be standard. It also makes the lower heat weapons more powerful as Heat management becomes even less of an issue.

[Greyson Kitiker]

I'd really like the heat scale to have the other effects from TT that are currently lacking this would stop ppl from running around with luk warm mechs since theres a good chance of shutting down with a 15 heat scale or ur ammo cooking off but thats TT and this is online so not sure if GM going to code in the additional heat pents for running hot or not

[Konrad]

Heat management is all in the hands of the pilot.

[Tennex]

Naeron66, on 03 December 2012 - 01:58 PM, said:

Worse thing is that players go in and add more powerful weapons and more HS so that they retain good heat management.

Dropping in Endo and upgrading all energy weapons would be standard. It also makes the lower heat weapons more powerful as Heat management becomes even less of an issue.

I dont think theres a way to add both better weapons (if it costs more tonnage) and more heat sinks. Anyway the point is to reach a balance so that on these heat optimized tial mechs. Heat is good enough that you would rather add a medium laser than another heat sink. Not that youd have room for either. Since u are too busy trying to cram in ER PPCs while swapping one PPC for a LL to keep heat neutral. Endo would def make room for a couple small weapons but nothing major but there is just a lot of assumptions and speculation

[Hatachi]

I think a lot of people miss that the whole point of heat in tabletop was that you could build a mech two ways. Either you built yourself heat neutral and had overall less firepower (Shadowhawk), or you made yourself run hot, but had to cool down from time to time (Marauder). The point was it was optional and better players knew when to push that extra PPC shot and when to fire one and just the medium lasers.

[MustrumRidcully]

Vlad Ward, on 03 December 2012 - 01:51 PM, said:

Pretty much. The Medium Laser is just plain stronger than larger weapons. This was intentional in Tabletop because the larger weapons came with the advantage of dealing all of their damage to one component. For example, 2 Medium Lasers may deal about as much damage as a Large laser, but in TT they would likely deal that damage to 2 separate components while they LL would just hit one.

That, and it's range gave it a much stronger advantage than in the table top.

In MW:O, range only affects how far your target can be away.
In the table top, range also affects how likely you are to hit with the weapon at certain distances.

To mimic this in MW:O, Medium Lasers basically would probably need a much longer beam duration (say, LL 0.5 seconds, Medium Laser 1.5 seconds, Small Laser .5 seconds)....
Or we increase either the LL damage or decrease the ML / SL damage.

[Hatachi]

@MustrumRidcully

That's why I've always been in favor a slightly larger reticle and it increasing in size as you push further percentage of your throttle. (Note, not speed, percentage of throttle.) It should/would also increase in size when gyro or actuators are knocked out. The weapons is capable of hitting anywhere within the reticle. I don't see why so many people see this idea and freak out. Do we not have fast firing inaccurate weapons in a large percentage of shooters, especially ones with even a hint of being sim like.

[valrond]

MustrumRidcully, on 03 December 2012 - 11:21 PM, said:

That, and it's range gave it a much stronger advantage than in the table top.

In MW:O, range only affects how far your target can be away.
In the table top, range also affects how likely you are to hit with the weapon at certain distances.

To mimic this in MW:O, Medium Lasers basically would probably need a much longer beam duration (say, LL 0.5 seconds, Medium Laser 1.5 seconds, Small Laser .5 seconds)....
Or we increase either the LL damage or decrease the ML / SL damage.

Why increase the ML beam duration and not the SL?. In TT, the SL was basically a filler weapon because of its range. 1 hex short, 2 hexes med, 3 hexes long. So it was basically useless unless you were right on top of things.

So, it should be: ER LL 0.5-> LL 0.75-> ML 1.0-> SL 1.25

[Indoorsman]

Tennex, on 03 December 2012 - 09:01 AM, said:

i mean whats the worst thing that could happen if heat management is good on the stocks?

Heat would be a joke? Maybe someone already said this, if so it needs to be said again?

[valrond]

Indoorsman, on 03 December 2012 - 11:32 PM, said:

Heat would be a joke? Maybe someone already said this, if so it needs to be said again?

Nope. It would mean they're actually usable as they were designed. Stock mechs were designed with a set of rules, in MWO those rules have changed, increasing the heat dramatically, so those stock mechs designs are basically unusable.

Custom mechs work around these new MWO rules to make mechs that are much more usable, with less weapons and more heatsinks.

[Farmer]

Taryys, on 03 December 2012 - 10:28 AM, said:

Yup, it becomes a question of - A what time during an average match, do you want to start worrying about managing your heat."

Which is actually what all the fluff indicates the Battletech Universe was like.

EDIT: I'm also a fan of cone targeting. A lot of people don't like it, but even the most skilled shooter fires in a cone, especially when running. if you're in range, and taking your time yes, you can zero in a shot. But if you're snap-shooting or moving, you'll have a spread. The more skilled the shooter, the tighter the spread. But there is still a spread.

Edited by Farmer, 03 December 2012 - 11:49 PM.

[MustrumRidcully]

Hatachi, on 03 December 2012 - 11:26 PM, said:

@MustrumRidcully

That's why I've always been in favor a slightly larger reticle and it increasing in size as you push further percentage of your throttle. (Note, not speed, percentage of throttle.) It should/would also increase in size when gyro or actuators are knocked out. The weapons is capable of hitting anywhere within the reticle. I don't see why so many people see this idea and freak out. Do we not have fast firing inaccurate weapons in a large percentage of shooters, especially ones with even a hint of being sim like.

Carefuly, if you mention shooters ,people will just go to "this is not Call of Duty/Hawken" mode and ignore you.

I think it's all possible. Go with cone of fires and minimize the benefits of convergence that way. Or forget cone of fire and rebalance your weapons for it. The AC20 weighs 14 tons and produces 7 heat (21 tons effective weight, plus ammo) in the table top because unlike 4 Medium Lasers for 4 tons and 12 heat (16 tons effective weight, no ammo) because it delivered the same damage to one spot. If now 4 Meds hit the sam espot , just like the AC20, then the Meds need to deal less damage or produce more heat to compensate. (I am in favor of less damage.)

[MustrumRidcully]

Indoorsman, on 03 December 2012 - 11:32 PM, said:

Heat would be a joke? Maybe someone already said this, if so it needs to be said again?

Heat will never be a joke.

The fundamental aspect that heat brings to the table is that it introduces us to a trade off between sustainable damage and burst damage. Burst capability can always give you an advantage in a firefight. If your burst and the-after-burst-sustainable-damage together give you more damage output before the fight is over (e.g. the sides retreat, one side is destroyed) than your burst damage is build is better.

Even if we had Sextuple Heat Sinks, the min/maxers would still be making hot builds. It just may mean that instead of running 7 medium lasers on a Hunchback, they run 7 PPCs.

So the only problems that better heat sinks could give us:
1) Make heat too cheap so that people would stop using weapons that were balanced around low heat but high ammo and weapon weight. So basically, Ballistics. We are still pretty far away from that. But it would definitely be an argument against Sextuple Heat Sinks, but it's not an argument against Double Heat Sinks.
2) Raise the average damage output of mechs too far. This isn't a problem with neither the current nor a fully fledged 2.0 DHS implementation, because mechs can use Ballistics and Missiles already to deliver such damage outputs.

[Hatachi]

MustrumRidcully, on 04 December 2012 - 01:59 AM, said:

Carefuly, if you mention shooters ,people will just go to "this is not Call of Duty/Hawken" mode and ignore you.

I think it's all possible. Go with cone of fires and minimize the benefits of convergence that way. Or forget cone of fire and rebalance your weapons for it. The AC20 weighs 14 tons and produces 7 heat (21 tons effective weight, plus ammo) in the table top because unlike 4 Medium Lasers for 4 tons and 12 heat (16 tons effective weight, no ammo) because it delivered the same damage to one spot. If now 4 Meds hit the sam espot , just like the AC20, then the Meds need to deal less damage or produce more heat to compensate. (I am in favor of less damage.)

The silly thing is it would be much closer to reflecting the original intent of the tabletop where choosing to stay in place, walk, or run had a very heavy effect on your ability to hit a target. I it would also bring random hit location into play to a certain extent which would heavily lower the strength of boating medium lasers etc. The Hunchback-4P was a mean mech in the 3025 era, but you were randomly hitting 5 damage over the whole mech. What the G had over it and made it a bit feared (When I played I tended to use it for board control more than actual damage as no one wanted to get in AC20 range.) was the fact it always dealt that 20 damage to one location. That was the advantage and I just feel it has never properly been reflected in any of the MechWarrior games.

[Khobai]

Quote

Not all Canon Mech designs were heat efficient

Thats true. But that's also not the problem. The problem is the canon mech designs that are supposed to be heat efficient are overheating like crazy.

The Awesome-8Q is the classic example. With 28 heatsinks it should be able to fire its PPCs 3-2-3-2 indefinitely without overheating. Instead, it overheats and shuts down in less than 10 seconds. Heat needs to be completely rebalanced around stock mechs so they work closer to their tabletop counterparts.

Edited by Khobai, 04 December 2012 - 06:24 AM.