40 replies to this topic

[SamizdatCowboy]

The grind sucks. Basically, it takes about a week of playing 2-3 hours a day, every day, at a reasonably high level to get a new mech. And if you want to level up that mech add 2 more weeks to get 2 other variants, plus the additional time to earn the XP on each variant. So really, to 'elite' a chasis you're looking at 1 - 2 months depending on the class, your ability, how much you play, etc.

Now ultimately the problem I have with the grind is not how long it takes but rather that it's, well, not fun. For me to go to elite on the one variant I care about, I have to spend oodles of extra time on variants I don't care about and don't enjoy playing? That's the point where a game stops being 'fun' and starts being a 'job' (hence the term 'grind').

Other games have time-expensive awards.. most obvious perhaps is Battlefield. But getting those awards (most of which are simply for bragging rights or personal satisfaction, and add no bonus in-game) was FUN. Yes it was time consuming and progressively more difficult, but it was also challenging, addictive, engaging, and satisfying.

Sorry, but while leveling up in MWO is time consuming, it's really none of the others. It's not even progressively more difficult, since XP really is handed out like candy... CBills are what are hard to get.

Obviously PGI wants to make a fun game, but as F2P they also want to make money... and so I wonder if they could make money if the grind was fun. After all, by making getting new mechs and weapons and skills time consuming and unpleasurable to achieve, isn't that how they entice players to spend MC, so they can short-circuit the process?

Now I personally am probably never going to spend MC on things like new mechs and weapons... it just doesn't sit right with me. I do spend money on converting XP, cosmetic items, and mech bays... and spending MC on those things seems fair to me.

But I resent being 'forced' to spend MC because the alternative is a decidedly un-fun grind.


TL;DR: Could MWO make money if leveling up and getting new items was time consuming AND fun, or does it have to be semi-unenjoyable to convince users to spend MC?

Edited by SamizdatCowboy, 03 December 2012 - 05:32 PM.

[Indk]

I have fun leveling up the different variants. Makes you come up with interesting builds.

[Heeden]

Personally I've quite enjoyed the grind, nearly got Mastery for Jenners and I've just bought and kitted out my first Centurion. Unlocking all the efficiencies may take quite a while but the important thing is to enjoy actually playing the game, the grind should happen in the background.

[Super Mono]

if new players didn't have to go through the terrible trial mech grind they'd be more willing to stick around. More players playing mean more people for PGI to sell content to.

[Windies]

Planetside 2 is fun and is pretty easy to grind in as far as I'm concerned. With that said I am willing, and probably will here shortly, buy premium and possibly a couple gun upgrades for some of the vehicles and my most played classes.

In MW:O, the grind is much too spread out. There's huge gap in terms of meaningful reward. In PS2 for example, my first certification point I can upgrade any of the basic upgrades in my suit slot for any class except the Max. or for vehicles I can upgrade zoom or ammo storage. Instant positive reinforcement and gratification.

In MW:O my first match nets me ..... nothing but some c-bills that can't be used for anything just yet. it goes on and on like that until your 20th-40th match and then you can finally buy the lightest mech to customize. Yet you can't customize it yet cause you spent all your c-bills on the mech, so you grind some more. Long drawn out reward process with very small positive reinforcement.

Really MW:O's grind is exacerbated by the stale gameplay and lack of content, and the very long stick with a tiny carrot.

[Felbombling]

The feedback I got from a friend, after they tried and quit playing MW: O, was more or less what I expected. He felt as though he was bringing a spoon to a knife fight. The Trial Mechs always seemed to overheat, even when he staggered his fire. This was pretty distressing for him, especially when faced with tweaked Mechs that seemed to fire twice the weapons he had twice as often. He had trouble with the controls at the get go, but even as he became familiar with the finer points of the game, he still failed to kill any opposition Mechs. After ten matches he gave up the ghost and called it a day. He said he could live with the bugs, could live with the minor disappointments, but what he couldn’t live with was the fact that he got tossed to the wolves.

I asked him what would bring him back or what would have kept him playing, and he had a very thoughtful suggestion...

“I left with roughly one million C-Bills in the bank, but the pain I’d go through to get the remaining C-Bills for my own Mech outweighed the attachment to the C-Bill total I had collected thus far. While I could see the light at the end of the tunnel, I couldn’t justify the extra time, nor could I justify giving PGI money for a buggy game just to kick start my own level of fun. Had I been able to mess around in the Mech lab earlier, with my own Mech, I might have stuck around. I still have no idea what kind of difference Mech Lab access would make… other than what I’ve seen maximized Mechs do to me. Had I been granted possession of something that I could feel ownership in and some level of advancement with, well, I might still be playing.”

That just about sums it up.

[Windies]

StaggerCheck, on 03 December 2012 - 06:09 PM, said:

The feedback I got from a friend, after they tried and quit playing MW: O, was more or less what I expected. He felt as though he was bringing a spoon to a knife fight. The Trial Mechs always seemed to overheat, even when he staggered his fire. This was pretty distressing for him, especially when faced with tweaked Mechs that seemed to fire twice the weapons he had twice as often. He had trouble with the controls at the get go, but even as he became familiar with the finer points of the game, he still failed to kill any opposition Mechs. After ten matches he gave up the ghost and called it a day. He said he could live with the bugs, could live with the minor disappointments, but what he couldn’t live with was the fact that he got tossed to the wolves.

I asked him what would bring him back or what would have kept him playing, and he had a very thoughtful suggestion...

“I left with roughly one million C-Bills in the bank, but the pain I’d go through to get the remaining C-Bills for my own Mech outweighed the attachment to the C-Bill total I had collected thus far. While I could see the light at the end of the tunnel, I couldn’t justify the extra time, nor could I justify giving PGI money for a buggy game just to kick start my own level of fun. Had I been able to mess around in the Mech lab earlier, with my own Mech, I might have stuck around. I still have no idea what kind of difference Mech Lab access would make… other than what I’ve seen maximized Mechs do to me. Had I been granted possession of something that I could feel ownership in and some level of advancement with, well, I might still be playing.”

That just about sums it up.

That's exactly why I feel the reward process is so long and drawn out, and it seems like your friend feels the same way.

[Greyfyl]

I really hate that the younger generation of gamers seem to have accepted that games have to include a grind. Just like I hate the fact that so many people have accepted paying $100 for some in game currency for a f2p game. To me it's sheer lunacy.

Edited by Greyfyl, 03 December 2012 - 06:47 PM.

[Team Leader]

Greyfyl, on 03 December 2012 - 06:47 PM, said:

Just like I hate the fact that so many people have accepted paying $100 for some in game currency for a f2p game. To me it's sheer lunacy.

I would have expected $120 on a f2p title to get me pretty dang far. Like, never have to grind to get another mech again far. I was very, very wrong. I can buy like 5 mechs, then Im out $80 MC. At least in Battlefield you would rank up by using what you actually LIKED to use, not having to buy 8 other mechs to get master on one chassis... The grind is unacceptable, the MC is unacceptable, the trial mechs are unacceptable, the new player experience in its nonexistant state is unacceptable. Even dropping tons of cash cant get you out of the rediculious grind!

Yes, if the grind was fun, they would make more money!

Edited by Team Leader, 03 December 2012 - 06:56 PM.

[Windies]

Team Leader, on 03 December 2012 - 06:55 PM, said:

I would have expected $120 on a f2p title to get me pretty dang far. Like, never have to grind to get another mech again far. I was very, very wrong. I can buy like 5 mechs, then Im out $80 MC. At least in Battlefield you would rank up by using what you actually LIKED to use, not having to buy 8 other mechs to get master on one chassis... The grind is unacceptable, the MC is unacceptable, the trial mechs are unacceptable, the new player experience in its nonexistant state is unacceptable. Even dropping tons of cash cant get you out of the rediculious grind!

Yes, if the grind was fun, they would make more money!

Yeah when you stop and think that $80 only gets you 5 virtual mechs that have no bonus's and the actual Hero Mech will probably be like Premium Tanks in WoT, game kind of loses any value in it's current state.

[BoomDog]

I've posted on this before too. I felt the grind really didn't get bad till I bought my first mech and tried to elite it. If you're in a pre-made, you don't die as much and win a lot more, so pre-mades don't feel the grind much. If you pug like me, it doesn't matter much how good you are, you're still losing most of the time. (mostly because you're still fighting pre-mades).

I buckled down and bought a month of premium time. Huge, huge difference. I accomplished in one day what I couldn't do in four. The thing is, do I want to keep paying with all of the bugs? Lack of maps? Lack of mechs? Lack of missions?

[Lt Limpy]

Greyfyl, on 03 December 2012 - 06:47 PM, said:

I really hate that the younger generation of gamers seem to have accepted that games have to include a grind. Just like I hate the fact that so many people have accepted paying $100 for some in game currency for a f2p game. To me it's sheer lunacy.

And I can't stand this thought process that seems to expect a F2P online game to get by fueled only by praise and good will from the people playing it... and not currency.

What is this younger generation you speak of in terms separating them from your point of view? From what I've experienced it's very much the opposite, with the younger ones seeing the big "F2P" sign and becoming indignant when they find out that they might actually have to pay some real money if they want good stuff pretty skins faster. If anything else most of the older mature crowd realize that money is needed for this game to survive in some shape or form, not hopes and dreams. How old are you, sir, and do you have even a basic knowledge of business?

[JokerVictor]

Greyfyl, on 03 December 2012 - 06:47 PM, said:

I really hate that the younger generation of gamers seem to have accepted that games have to include a grind. Just like I hate the fact that so many people have accepted paying $100 for some in game currency for a f2p game. To me it's sheer lunacy.

Conditioned for that addiction treadmill, I think. CoD and WoW encourage that elitism trait, that playing forever and getting all the stupid bits and bobs equals fun and skill. Which isn't really true, it just means you have more time than you know what to do with or really horrible priorities. But that's who this kind of game is designed specifically for. The insane collectomaniac that compulsively spends money because he/she's gotta catch'em all. It isn't about fun, not in the least. Design priority #1 is never fun in a F2P game... Fun is #2 at a decent company (SOE), and shares equal time with the real #1: making you suckers pay pay pay to really enjoy the game.

Admittedly, that system works when put into a great game - where money isn't involved, or is at least not a core mechanic in the process. It DOES NOT work, however, in a bad game with an instant gratification greed button, like this game. I paid for a full retail game, and got about $5 worth of bargain bin sh*t and I'm now expected to grind my *** off to actually get anything, or pay more. There's a huge banner on every page asking me to pay more. Just PAY MORE! This game is fundamentally flawed and is doomed to fail.

Edit: words.

Edited by JokerVictor, 03 December 2012 - 07:40 PM.

[Xenophontis]

Took me 2 days to get a new hunchie

Now I make about 8-10 million a night if I play with my Merc. Corp mates and buy premium time.

[Windies]

Xenophontis, on 03 December 2012 - 07:28 PM, said:

Took me 2 days to get a new hunchie

Now I make about 8-10 million a night if I play with my Merc. Corp mates and buy premium time.

Assuming you drop back to back with no pauses, making 125,000 c-bills free and clear after R&R every match and never lose, with an average match time of 6 minutes per match, you would have to play 8 hours a day to make that true.

If you add in a 1 minuite downtime between matches to account for you actually loading in and waiting for everyone else to load in it becomes 9 hours 20 minuites roughly. It would probably be more accurate to say 2-4 minutes between matches.

Edited by Windies, 03 December 2012 - 07:40 PM.

[JokerVictor]

Windies, on 03 December 2012 - 07:34 PM, said:

Assuming you drop back to back with no pauses, making 125,000 c-bills free and clear after R&R every match and never lose, with an average match time of 6 minutes per match, you would have to play 8 hours a day to make that true.

If you add in a 1 minuite downtime between matches to account for you actually loading in and waiting for everyone else to load in it becomes 9 hours 20 minuites roughly. It would probably be more accurate to say 2-4 minutes between matches.

Judging from the quality of people that generally post in defense of this trainwreck, that's probably spot on.

8-10 million pub stomping for 8 hours a night... Yeah I could see it. That's the only type of person left playing this game anymore, besides the farmers. The competitors have long since left this game, there's no fair competition to be found in it. It's just bullies and wannabe bullies.

Edited by JokerVictor, 03 December 2012 - 07:52 PM.

[Windies]

JokerVictor, on 03 December 2012 - 07:45 PM, said:

Judging from the quality of people that generally post in defense of this trainwreck, that's probably spot on.

I just find it funny when people make outrageous claims and boasts and wonder why math or logic doesn't back them up like it bends to their will or something.

[Psydotek]

There should be some sort of one time purchase that gives your account a small but permanent experience and c-bill boost. Founder and hero 'mechs along with Premium time would still provide a bigger boost, but something like $5-10 is pretty manageable for most players for a small permanent boost would help with making the grind less difficult, let players still be able to choose from a variety of mechs (instead of being stuck with a select few), and generate income for the developers.

[Windies]

Psydotek, on 03 December 2012 - 07:49 PM, said:

There should be some sort of one time purchase that gives your account a small but permanent experience and c-bill boost. Founder and hero 'mechs along with Premium time would still provide a bigger boost, but something like $5-10 is pretty manageable for most players for a small permanent boost would help with making the grind less difficult, let players still be able to choose from a variety of mechs (instead of being stuck with a select few), and generate income for the developers.

F2P is about constant microtransactions though, that kind of goes against the business model PGI is pursuing. I would rather see better value for money than stopgap implementations.

[Lootee]

Exactly. The all or nothing approach for the new player's first purchase is a huge turnoff.

They can do absolutely NOTHING with the c-bills they earn until they amass 1.7 million of them or more.

How many games out there are like that? Where you start out in n00bland and you can't buy ANYTHING and you can't loot ANY ITEMS until you get to lvl 20? Every single other game out there lets you buy/loot some horrible starter armor, weapon, trinkets, heals, whatever. The point is they can see themselves making steady progress.

MWO has none of that until you hit the 1.7 million mark. Zero positive reinforcement at the start, plenty of negative reinforcement from various things ranging from suiciders, crashes, teamkillers, AFKs, and getting crushed by experienced players.

Not the way I would have done it. There needs to be something to hook new players, get them invested in the game.

Edited by PanchoTortilla, 03 December 2012 - 08:03 PM.