263 replies to this topic

[xxx WreckinBallRaj xxx]

I don't see a reason for 2.0 DHS other than to foolishly cling to canon that imbalances the game. DHS is already better and there's no reason currently to "not" have them on a Mech. Making DHS even better doesn't address this issue. SHS are what needs a buff here, because they are so bad that Trial Mechs have almost no heat management. They need to raise the 1.0 bar up first.(Perhaps to 1.2?)

[John Norad]

Brilig, on 04 December 2012 - 02:51 AM, said:

Devs said that they tested double heat sinks at 2.0. The problem was they made heat a non issue for certain builds. Which builds I am not sure, but I guess it was pretty bad.

Tripple gauss mechs have no heat issues whatsoever, even with SHS.
What should we do?

The heat system could be adjusted to penalize alpha strikes more than it does now. Even with a lot more heat dissipaton. Yet it takes a bit of creativity instead of hamfisted approaches.

Bluten, on 04 December 2012 - 02:54 AM, said:

I don't see a reason for 2.0 DHS other than to foolishly cling to canon that imbalances the game. DHS is already better and there's no reason currently to "not" have them on a Mech

Underlined the important part (it's still Beta and all that). In response let me quote myself:

John Norad, on 04 December 2012 - 02:46 AM, said:

If SHS performed well, a DHS upgrade wouldn't be mandatory!

Even if DHS were clearly superior, balance could be achieved by making it a tradeoff-choice and factor it into the matchmaking, actually increasing your battle value and by that boosting your enemy's team.

In short: the solution lies in implementing some kind of battle value and displaying it in the mechlab. In addition to that tweaking the heat system and changing the way heat works. Hint - gradual rise, low capacity. But I certainly won't do the dev's job unless they pay me for it.
Oh and please stop demonizing 'canon' or 'TT' when it's not always the clinging to, but quite often the straying off from existing rules that causes problems.

Edited by John Norad, 04 December 2012 - 03:13 AM.

[Elkarlo]

Bluten, on 04 December 2012 - 02:54 AM, said:

I don't see a reason for 2.0 DHS other than to foolishly cling to canon that imbalances the game. DHS is already better and there's no reason currently to "not" have them on a Mech. Making DHS even better doesn't address this issue. SHS are what needs a buff here, because they are so bad that Trial Mechs have almost no heat management. They need to raise the 1.0 bar up first.(Perhaps to 1.2?)

As i said in another Post: PGI made the Mistake to fiddle with Weapons Heat when they didn't noticed that Engine DHS are still at 2.0 Increasing SHS to 1.2 would simply drive the Spiral up.

Putt the Energy Weapon Heat back and make ALL DHS 1.4 Effiency would be an Improvement on that Matter, help the Trial Mechs out etc...

PGI Fixed a Problem with Energy Weapons Heat increasing when they didn't noticed that the reduction of DHS effiency didn't worked as intended. Fiddling with SHS now would make matters worse.

[Jetfire]

Wait seriously? DHS work well right now. The 2.0 engine with 1.4 outside is basically a perfect balance. Heat is still relevant and you can't simply run an icy mech with constant alphas which is a GOOD THING for balance but you get a significant boost. Sometimes I wish the devs would release a little button that let you boot the game into PURE TT mode just so everyone could see how completely unhinged it would be with all values for all things in game at TT levels.

Let's talk about 1.4 vs 1.5 or 1.6 DHS values in a year when other far more important stuff than helping out the already viable laser boats is done.

Edited by Jetfire, 04 December 2012 - 03:27 AM.

[Ikarti Danaro]

Stop citing "This isn't TT" as a reason for this.

PGI picks and chooses what they will and won't slavishly adhere to, and not having real DHS is more important than not making new players pilot terrible "True to TT" Trial Mechs that make them either want to quit or force them to spend real money on a mech that's not a disaster.

[AlexEss]

Meh.. Just set all to 1.4 and this will end.

Then it will be fair to all and people will have to adjust they firing habits.

Nobody NEED 2.0 heatsinks. Want.. yes Desire.. Most likley Need.. No.

[MustrumRidcully]

AlexEss, on 04 December 2012 - 03:40 AM, said:

Meh.. Just set all to 1.4 and this will end.

Then it will be fair to all and people will have to adjust they firing habits.

Nobody NEED 2.0 heatsinks. Want.. yes Desire.. Most likley Need.. No.

Do we need Triple PPC builds that run warm rather than hot?

Maybe not.

But then it sounds a bit unfair, because we have Dual Gauss builds.


Fact is, however, that Battletech actually features double and triple PPC mechs. Some even with Double or Triple ER PPCs. And they weren't necessarily hot (some where, some weren't). The K2 should be able to fire its 2 PPCs without a pause, because that's what it can in Battletech. If it could do that in MW:O, it would still deliver less damage than a Dual Gauss Cat...

[Havyek]

If you can't manage your heat, it's not up to PGI to make the game so easy that you can hold down the fire button without thinking.

Just because the weapons have reloaded, doesn't mean you need to fire them.

[Sifright]

BDU Havoc, on 04 December 2012 - 04:46 AM, said:

If you can't manage your heat, it's not up to PGI to make the game so easy that you can hold down the fire button without thinking.

Just because the weapons have reloaded, doesn't mean you need to fire them.

This is true!

On the other hand I build my mech to have the optimal configuration between alphaing for high instantaneous damage and sustained fire.

Where as the trials can't fire any of their weapons in a sustained way. Sounds perfect.

[MustrumRidcully]

BDU Havoc, on 04 December 2012 - 04:46 AM, said:

If you can't manage your heat, it's not up to PGI to make the game so easy that you can hold down the fire button without thinking.

Just because the weapons have reloaded, doesn't mean you need to fire them.

Okay, I have managed my heat. I observe that when I do this, that my firepower is better if I rely on missiles and ballistics than with energy weapons.

If I analyze the problem, I realize it is because of the way heat works. Can PGI look into this perhaps?

[Havyek]

Sifright, on 04 December 2012 - 04:49 AM, said:

This is true!

On the other hand I build my mech to have the optimal configuration between alphaing for high instantaneous damage and sustained fire.

Where as the trials can't fire any of their weapons in a sustained way. Sounds perfect.

Most of the problems could be at least helped by having any semblance of a tutorial for new players.

Most of my loadouts use heavier energy weapons like erLLAS, LLAS or LPLAS (no PPCs and not because of their heat). When I shoot, my heat jumps. I can shoot again and I'm ready to overheat. I can either shoot again and shut down and hope that my last shot finished off the enemy, I can wait until my heat goes down and fire again, or I can chain fire and still do some damage. This is on a 'Mech with a heat efficiency around 1 or 1.1.

The decision of how I shoot should be mine, not to PGI to just make heat a non-issue so I can just FIRE ALL ZE LAZERS!!

[Havyek]

MustrumRidcully, on 04 December 2012 - 04:51 AM, said:

Okay, I have managed my heat. I observe that when I do this, that my firepower is better if I rely on missiles and ballistics than with energy weapons.

If I analyze the problem, I realize it is because of the way heat works. Can PGI look into this perhaps?

Your firepower might be better, your damage might be higher, but guess what, you're not getting kills.
Energy weapons (generally) allow for pin-point precision (or at least more focused damage) than missile weapons (not getting in a SSRM argument here).
I also consistently score more damage when I run a missile heavy build. I usually place higher in kills and XP when I run an energy build because though I do less damage with the lasers, it's more focused in its location so I get more kills and component destruction.

[Comguard]

Problem is that only PGI tested DHS. And their results were very strange ("could core an Atlas with my Jenner in less than 3 seconds thanks to DHS").

And many users here don't trust PGI's testing-results because sometimes you get the impression they don't test their stuff at all. For example when they finally found out that screen-shake can be annoying.

Tinfoil-hat mode on: the only reason DHS have 1.4 dissipation is that we will buy Clan-Goldsinks with 2.0 dissipation next year.

[MustrumRidcully]

BDU Havoc, on 04 December 2012 - 05:18 AM, said:

Your firepower might be better, your damage might be higher, but guess what, you're not getting kills.

Tell that to the people that decided to rip out their PPCs and install Gauss Rifles. Or AC20s.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 04 December 2012 - 05:26 AM.

[Sifright]

MustrumRidcully, on 04 December 2012 - 05:25 AM, said:

Tell that to the people that decided to rip out their PPCs and install Gauss Rifles. Or AC20s.

man my SRm6 cat gets upwards of 800 points of damage a game. and i get 3-4 kills a match unless some one sneaks the last shot on a dude i just pounded.

Trust me when I say lasers are bad at the moment compared to most other weapons.

Mediums are the best of an other wise bad weapon group.

to the point where medium lasers are actually reasonable to use in my jenner because hey nice damage low heat and good accuracy.

all the other lasers are either bad range or bad heat and get dumped on the side lines.

To say nothing of ppcs.

Edited by Sifright, 04 December 2012 - 05:32 AM.

[Purlana]

PGI's internal testing isn't that good....

[wanderer]

Indk, on 03 December 2012 - 05:43 PM, said:

They tested it and it made the game suck.

Has anyone on this forum tested 2.0 DHS?

DHS is almost always an upgrade already, if it were 2.0 it would be mandatory.

DHS -is- almost mandatory post-3049. Or rather, it's the normal, STANDARD heat sinks for Battlemechs built in the Clan War+ eras, and SHS are considered a -downgrade- from the norm, only installed when trying to be super-cheap in construction or if the design is a Periphery or outright primitive design.

Keeping them nerfed is pants-on-head stupid- it'd be like making SHS .7 instead of 1.0 because it "breaks the game". While I understand math can be hard, people have already theorycrafted with 2.0 DHS. Surprise, surprise- it didn't break the game.

[inquisitor]

Lasers have one, and ONLY one advantage for me at the moment. They aren't suffering from fire-delay. I can cockpit a Cat with one burst from my quad LL Atlas, but ballistics lag to the point of uselessness against any moving targets, and SSRMs are a godsend, even if they do fire more slowly than they should.

[Joseph Mallan]

AlexEss, on 04 December 2012 - 03:40 AM, said:

Meh.. Just set all to 1.4 and this will end.

Then it will be fair to all and people will have to adjust they firing habits.

Nobody NEED 2.0 heatsinks. Want.. yes Desire.. Most likley Need.. No.

On the contrary, Double sinks are not even in the game yet. And until they are actually doubled compared to single sinks, we don't know how good they actually are. No offense Garth and the rest, But as we are the testers and the paying customers, shouldn't we have the right to test them at full strength before they are made weaker than intended?

[MustrumRidcully]

A lot of problems may have been avoided if we had stuck to the 3025 era. Or were in the middle of the Clan Wars.
Or if the devs understood what their system would be doing to the game balance in the first place.

*sigh*