58 replies to this topic

[Alondo]

First and foremost for me regarding PPC's, is to remove the flight time of a shot. A PPC should shoot like an instant hit laser. Every now and then I mount a PPC or two on a mech, just to remember why they are not worth the tonnage and heat they generate. Removing flight time and the delay on a shot would make me VERY happy. The rest of the problems I see with PPC's are secondary to those two issues at the moment.

[LaserAngel]

MustrumRidcully, on 04 December 2012 - 05:22 AM, said:

What about ER PPCs?

But let's look at AC/10 vs PPC.

AC/10 in MW:O: 10 damage and 3 heat per shot, Cooldown 2.5; Max DPS is 4, Max Heat per second is 1.2
PPC in MW:O: 10 damage and 9 heat per shot, Cooldown 3; Max DPS is 3.33, Max Heat per Second is 3.

For the AC/10: 12 heat sinks, 12 tons for the AC/10, say 6 tons for the Ammo = 30 tons for 4 DPS => 0.13 DPS per ton
For the PPC: 30 heat sinks, 7 tons for the PPC= 37 tons for 3.33 DPS => 0.09 DPS per Ton
44 % damage/weight advantage for the AC/10.

With real Double Heat Sinks:
AC/10: 24 tons => 0.167 DPS/Ton
PPC: 22 tons => 0.151 DPS/Ton
10 % damage/weight advantage for the AC/10.

Wow, so buffing the PPC to 11 damage would bring it about on par with the AC/10? Wow thanks for that tidbit.

Edited by LaserAngel, 04 December 2012 - 11:01 AM.

[SilvaDraconis]

Hit detection or lagshield are the killers for PPCs. As far as all the super responses comparing them, well energy weapons are supposed to be slightly less effective than the ballistics. The counterbalance of that is energy weapons don't run out of ammo.

[madned]

FerretGR, on 04 December 2012 - 09:41 AM, said:

Minor nitpick, but electrons don't move at the speed of light.

neat point.
speed of lightning: 50-670 km/s
http://wiki.answers....ed_of_lightning
but you kinda have to discount that slightly. meteorologic events have a crazy large energy pool to work with. probably better thinking of it as an energy based slugger, since you're strictly limited by first the mech's power plant and second the limits of cannon power throughput.for comparison modern tank gun will chuck a 8 kg shell at 1,750 m/s which works out north of 24 MJ.
http://en.wikipedia....tall_120_mm_gun
since this is battletech and some future unobtaininum is probably involved you can probably increase these values to get your cannon output. then all you need to do is figure out how many electrons you're chucking out of your gun probably apply some loss rate for the cannon. and work backwards like these guys.
http://answers.yahoo...21223014AAS1bUY
that's probably too much trouble though, just weigh the electrons and apply the simple formula.
kilogram sound good? that's a lot of electrons
presto the average flight speed of an unladen swallow. (unless you're using the coconut variant of the PPC)
ie: double the power and use 1kg of electrons and you're in the neighborhood of 28km/s
which still seems a little high. :shrug: unobtainium go figure. probably need to adjust shot weight for the damage.
for reference: c approx 3x10^8m/s=3x10^5 km/s
fast lightning approx 0.002c
notional cannon: 0.00009c
this fix would of course introduce a new problem...i got hit by a ppc shot i never saw... animation should conclude under 1/28 sec (or less under 1km) what with lag might never render.

[Kunae]

OriginalTibs, on 04 December 2012 - 05:48 AM, said:

The damage from a PPC or ER PPC is spread between the targeted area to adjoining areas, similar to an SRM salvo but a little more focused. You will note that the effect from a strike on the CT is damage to CT, RT, LT, and sometimes more.

Have you played this game lately? Honestly?

They changed that aspect of PPC's like 3 or 4 months ago. They only hit one location.

[FerretGR]

BlackSquirrel, on 04 December 2012 - 10:02 AM, said:

OMG thank you for pointing this out... It annoyed me, but I didnt want to get into a debate with anyone on the technicalities.

LOL no worries... I teach physics so it's difficult to let stuff like that slip by

[Lightfoot]

Glucose, on 04 December 2012 - 04:40 AM, said:

PPCs have a minimum range of 90m (they do less damage from 0-90m). You would have killed him quicker if you backed up a little first.

ERPPCs have no minimum range.

The PPC/ ERPPC is bugged or nerfed to not be like other projectile weapons (Battletech describes the PPC as an energy projectile that does damage similar to high caliber autocannons). I suspect at this point that it is a nerf that causes the PPC to do splash damage, making it worthless, but also preventing 3x PPC from equaling 2x Gauss Rifles. They need to balance it so they are a bit more effective if they expect anyone to use them in MWO.

[xRatas]

I've been using Awesomes for last few days, and I certainly don't feel handicapped when using 2-3 PPC:s in my mech. Fast recycle means I can quickly fire 8 or 9 shots, and it is enough to core or strip side torso away from most mechs from front. Haven't got much problems hitting something with a PPC either, and it seems I get quite comparable efficiency to my other mechs with Gausses, Lasers, Autocannons and whatever. I Do not use ER PPC:s. They cause way too much heat for my tastes, but do so in tabletop too...

Seriously, there are dozen other bugs that are real issue, PPC balance is good enough for now IMO.

Edited by xRatas, 04 December 2012 - 01:43 PM.

[Stormur Herra]

I think they should make the PPCs instant. At least then they would be easier to use on moving targets than the Gauss and there'd be a real trade-off.

[Gulinborsti]

I played around a bit with ERPPCs lately and their main issue is not heat, it's the aiming.

They simply shoot somewhere but never where you point them, at least once you are moving and don't sit somewhere for sniping.
When being stationary myself and trying to hit moving targets it seems to be more reliable once you figure out how much lead they need.
But moving and shooting at moving and even stationary targets is only generating heat, I miss 9/10 shots, maybe more.

Once they hit, the damage is ok but might be better.

I didn't have this issues with Gauss, ACs or lasers so I think I am not completely inapt when it comes to aiming my shots. I am rather sure something is bugged.

Maybe adjusting the travel speed of the "round" as discussed above might fix this, but it definitely needs to get under investigation by the devs.

At least for me, they are almost unusable in the current state.

Edited by Gulinborsti, 06 December 2012 - 04:42 PM.

[Pr8Dator]

Its not the PPC's problem. Until armor values and heatsink values return to canon, all weapons with canon stats will feel underpowered.

[LaserAngel]

Gulinborsti, on 06 December 2012 - 04:41 PM, said:

I played around a bit with ERPPCs lately and their main issue is not heat, it's the aiming.

They simply shoot somewhere but never where you point them, at least once you are moving and don't sit somewhere for sniping.
When being stationary myself and trying to hit moving targets it seems to be more reliable once you figure out how much lead they need.
But moving and shooting at moving and even stationary targets is only generating heat, I miss 9/10 shots, maybe more.

Once they hit, the damage is ok but might be better.

I didn't have this issues with Gauss, ACs or lasers so I think I am not completely inapt when it comes to aiming my shots. I am rather sure something is bugged.

Maybe adjusting the travel speed of the "round" as discussed above might fix this, but it definitely needs to get under investigation by the devs.

At least for me, they are almost unusable in the current state.

Hit detection for the PPC is questionable at times too but you're in luck. The PPC is getting a much needed projectile speed increase!

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1546429

Quote

As I said I would keep you up to date... going into test today... possibly live next patch...

1) AutoCannon projectile speeds increasing. AC/20 ~ 900m/s. AC/LBX10 ~ 1100m/s. AC/UAC/5 ~1300m/s.
2) PPC and ERPPC projectile speeds increasing to 2000m/s (AC/2 speed).

I've also looked into doing some tweaks with the NARC and TAG systems. So far I'm planning on increasing the time that a NARC beacon lasts from 15 seconds to 20 seconds. TAG range will be boosted from 450m to 750m.


These changes will go through testing and if it feels right, you'll see them next patch.

Edited by LaserAngel, 06 December 2012 - 07:24 PM.

[Leetskeet]

If you think they can easily change a couple numbers around for the horrible weapons you'd be wrong

If you know what I mean

[krolmir]

Anyone know if they fixed the hit reading for ER/PPC yet?

[Davers]

All PPC damage should be being applied to one location. If it isn't then it's a bug and a support ticket should be submitted. It might be that multiple PPCs are not converging due to targeting and movement and therefore hitting different locations.

PPC speed is being improved to be equal to the AC/2. Plus it is getting some kind of EMP effect.

[Taizan]

The PPC feels like a rail gun, but in weak. The firing delay between firing the weapon and the shot actually firing varies and on top of that the weapon shoots similar to a ballistic weapon as it retains momentum. The projectile or firing animation itself currently is more like a slow flying plasma bolt than a "particle projection".

What I learned is not to aim with the PPC where the target is, but estimate the general direction and shoot somewhere into the nether, hoping the shot connects. With the only exception if the target is standing still and even then, some shots do not connect. Furthermore the PPCs do not seem to penetrate or dismantle armor like an AC/10 does..

I guess the PPC simply suffers strongly from the hit detection and netcode. Personally its my least favoured weapon because it does not deliver the expected (10 damage) punch and the performance is unpredictable.

The ER PPC has too many negatives/non-benefits attached to it to make it it worth while equipping.

Yes I know they are getting some love soon, maybe we can revisit this thread afterwards.

Edited by Taizan, 10 December 2012 - 05:39 PM.

[thantos911]

A mech running ER or non ER PPC's is inferior just a fact. Also splash damage was done away with awhile back, one thing you are seeing though probably is the fact armor values have been doubled for combat do take that into mind, and internal values are half the armor value of stock armor values.

[Tennex]

its really gone ignored for a long time. and they aknowledge the issue. i thin theres just a lot of procrastination

[jimthegray]

Thorn Hallis, on 04 December 2012 - 05:01 AM, said:

PPCs should be compared with AC10s, not with Gaussrifles.

Somewhere in between IMHO
they do seem to have more down sides then other weapons in game at the moment