2028 replies to this topic

[Big Bad Wulf]

Tokimonatakanimekat, on 10 December 2012 - 07:19 AM, said:

1000 dmg and 7 assists with my 2 lightbros who run ECM's in counter mode and TAG enemies for me.
Problems, pug?
Oh, yes, you have no team to play with in this TEAM-BASED game.


Lolololol. ECMs made game more tactical than any other module introduced before.




I eat Ravens with my Atlas for breakfast.

Btw, there is one major issue with ECM - pugs can't even shoot something that they can't lock on.

Amen to that...

[hgbek]

LynxFury, on 10 December 2012 - 10:13 AM, said:

Only working on enemy sensors within the 180m makes no physical sense what so ever. Signal strength decreases as a squared root with range, so any counter measure will be increasingly effective against enemy sensors with increased distance...not less so. The current ECM model gets it right--it's just too effective right now.

Assuming the mechs use radar. Radar return signal strength goes like 1/R^4. The received ECM signal by the radar receiver goes like 1/R^2. This means that ECM is mainly effective at longer range and that radars are able to burn through the ECM when they come closer. The effective of power of the ECM on a radar frequency is usually much less than that transmitted by the radar. This is because the ECM has to divide it's power over many radar frequencies to be effective. Otherwise you are only jamming one radar that happens to be working on that single frequency.

[Corvus Antaka]

Marcus Wulf, on 10 December 2012 - 10:35 AM, said:

Yes strategy and creativity too! Like using it to mask you assault force and smash through prepared defenses (I was on the receiving end of this one.)

ECM to work well has to be used in conjunction with the whole team. I have yet to see an ECM boat working alone and succeeding with out the help of his/her other team/drop mates. Those that I have ecountered who did so died quickly with their ECM being inconsequential.

I am guessing you are an LRM (SSRM) boat driver based on your comment. Well 2 nights ago (more like early morning) We went up against a team with LRM boats and our ECM did not do squat. It's called TAG has a 450m range well beyond the 180m of the ECM, this requires strategy and tactics to work.

So yes, ECM forces people to work together. I have given you examples can you give your's perhaps i might be wrong - or not.

If the ECM had to be linked to a command console to achieve a bubble, and if the ECM otherwise only protected the mech carrying it, and if the ECM did not completely negate the ability of mechs to achieve a lock, I would agree.

But your definition of teamwork is simply "take some ECM capable mechs, and stick together"

before ecm everyone stuck together too. now, ECM gives them everything they had before, plus a cloak that stops missiles.

PGI hasn't done squat for teamwork, they've simply buffed what most everyone was doing already, and taken the 1 weapon designed to flush enemies from cover and made it practically worthless.

Yes, a scout can still flank the enemy at 450 meters and TAG, but as he is being chased/harrased, he now needs to maintain a permanent TAG on the enemy for his LRM boats to do anything worthwhile, and if the TAG slips off the enemy the LRM mech is worthless.

and once again I will say - only an ***** team brings LRMS at this point, because there is a 99% chance the enemy will have ECM, and no one in there right mind takes a weapon system that might end up being useless when they could instead take a gaurenteed to work weapon system regardless of ECM.

Yes, LRMS can still do well and be viable, but in the current form, looking ahead to full on 8v8 organized and well fought matches, if ECM stays as it is now, no self-respecting team would be dumb enough to take LRMS with the risk that the LRM mech is completely useless for the entire match.

Imagine if ECM made mechs invisible, and you could only "see" them if you tagged them. only then could you shoot them with your AC/LBX/Gauss rifle.

I doubt anyone would be in favour of that, but thats exactly what ECM has done to LRM & SSRM mechs.

People had to work together more and harder prepatch than with ECM. 8 men humping an ECM mech in a bubble and rushing isnt teamwork or tactics, its simply abusing a game mechanic that is invalidating certain weapons and strategies completely.

And nevermind that ECM is nothing like described in TT, where we have no mention of LRMS/SSRMS being useless outside the 180m range.

And while I do pilot mechs with missiles, I mainly pilot brawlers and mechs without missiles. And I see a huge problem with the crap gameplay this patch has brought us.

[steelblueskies]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 10 December 2012 - 10:45 AM, said:

If the ECM had to be linked to a command console to achieve a bubble, and if the ECM otherwise only protected the mech carrying it, and if the ECM did not completely negate the ability of mechs to achieve a lock, I would agree.

But your definition of teamwork is simply "take some ECM capable mechs, and stick together"

before ecm everyone stuck together too. now, ECM gives them everything they had before, plus a cloak that stops missiles.

PGI hasn't done squat for teamwork, they've simply buffed what most everyone was doing already, and taken the 1 weapon designed to flush enemies from cover and made it practically worthless.

Yes, a scout can still flank the enemy at 450 meters and TAG, but as he is being chased/harrased, he now needs to maintain a permanent TAG on the enemy for his LRM boats to do anything worthwhile, and if the TAG slips off the enemy the LRM mech is worthless.

and once again I will say - only an ***** team brings LRMS at this point, because there is a 99% chance the enemy will have ECM, and no one in there right mind takes a weapon system that might end up being useless when they could instead take a gaurenteed to work weapon system regardless of ECM.

Yes, LRMS can still do well and be viable, but in the current form, looking ahead to full on 8v8 organized and well fought matches, if ECM stays as it is now, no self-respecting team would be dumb enough to take LRMS with the risk that the LRM mech is completely useless for the entire match.

Imagine if ECM made mechs invisible, and you could only "see" them if you tagged them. only then could you shoot them with your AC/LBX/Gauss rifle.

I doubt anyone would be in favour of that, but thats exactly what ECM has done to LRM & SSRM mechs.

People had to work together more and harder prepatch than with ECM. 8 men humping an ECM mech in a bubble and rushing isnt teamwork or tactics, its simply abusing a game mechanic that is invalidating certain weapons and strategies completely.

And nevermind that ECM is nothing like described in TT, where we have no mention of LRMS/SSRMS being useless outside the 180m range.

And while I do pilot mechs with missiles, I mainly pilot brawlers and mechs without missiles. And I see a huge problem with the crap gameplay this patch has brought us.

i vote they implement the chameleon system next and allow it on ecm capable mechs. no visual signal and no sensor signal. then we see how they think the game is. then they decry " but you can still spot them with thermal! its fine!", at which point we add null sig to the same list, and the mech is invisiable to visual, thermal and sensor locks. you cannot see it unless it's moving. ie the frackin' predator.

consider the source material people. and for that matter how do you add c3 systems? a c3 command system would include tag benefits, and the rest of the features we already have free. should hitting the take command button give you magical tag vision?

lotta off kilter stuff here

[hgbek]

IMO the thing that upsets the gameplay the most is the fact that employing ECM comes without penalties. There should be downside to it.

HGBEK

[TheSteelRhino]

Marcus Wulf, on 10 December 2012 - 10:35 AM, said:

Yes strategy and creativity too! Like using it to mask you assault force and smash through prepared defenses (I was on the receiving end of this one.)

ECM to work well has to be used in conjunction with the whole team. I have yet to see an ECM boat working alone and succeeding with out the help of his/her other team/drop mates. Those that I have ecountered who did so died quickly with their ECM being inconsequential.

I am guessing you are an LRM (SSRM) boat driver based on your comment. Well 2 nights ago (more like early morning) We went up against a team with LRM boats and our ECM did not do squat. It's called TAG has a 450m range well beyond the 180m of the ECM, this requires strategy and tactics to work.

So yes, ECM forces people to work together. I have given you examples can you give your's perhaps i might be wrong - or not.

Wow? Creativity. Bunch up under and ecm bubble and rush the cap.

I'll one up you then. I take atlases in centurions WITHOUT ECM. So there.

REALLY? THAT'S YOUR ARGUMENT? Kind of SAD.

Again, you want tactics? You know, you should be able to accomplish the same thing nearly using terrain if you are GOOD.

ECM takes away a lot of the skill. YES..in REAL life I supposed you want to be as OP as possible. >BUT THIS IS A GAME AND SHOULD ACTUALLY BE FUN AND CHALLENGING<

[hgbek]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 10 December 2012 - 10:45 AM, said:

And nevermind that ECM is nothing like described in TT, where we have no mention of LRMS/SSRMS being useless outside the 180m range.

A home on jam mode for LRMs?

HGBEK

[Kill3rAce]

I think the ECM needs to weigh more and a have an extra critical so it becomes more of a gamble when equipping it on mechs. It has almost eliminated using the different variants of mech if only one has ECM. Overall, I don't think it is too over-powered once they extend tag to 750m it will be great

[Skandrannon]

wow... I thought I would get at least one reply to my post on page 60.

Not being able to select or "soft target" enemies, or even telling if they are enemies doesn't bother anyone? (red triangle does not always show up now) drives me nuts.

Also, again, make ECM destroyable, like other equipment. If someone has it in their right torso, and that right torso is destroyed, so is the equipment inside... makes sense, right?

[Umbra8]

The only thing they need to do is keep it in line with cannon. What they have is Guardian ECM with the Stealth Armour add on. So just make it take up an additional 12 crit slots (two in each arm, leg, and side torso) and generate 10 heat per cycle while active (citation: http://www.sarna.net...i/Stealth_Armor).

Or, you know, they could just nerf it to what Guardian ECM is supposed to do (http://www.sarna.net...rdian_ECM_Suite) which does buggerall outside of 180 meters. That would be balanced.

[Murrdox]

Prior to ECM being introduced, everyone in the game effectively had a C3 computer. (For the uninformed, a C3 computer network involves a C3 Command module installed in a Command Mech, and smaller C3 Slaves to be installed in other Mechs. With this network setup, the C3 Mechs can share sensor information and on the table-top this reduces range penalties, and essentially lets you use close range mechs as "Spotters" for long range Mechs).

I understand why PGI did this. They setup the sensor system as they did so that Scouting in the game had a tactical purpose. Otherwise, everyone would simply always run Heavy and Assault Mechs. Scout Mechs needed to be useful. However I think from the get-go, the ability to use a Spotter Mech to target long-range Mechs with LRM fire was too powerful, mostly because LRMs were too easy to get a lock and hit with.

ECM essentially takes away our free C3 computer, but then I think it goes a tad too far. I don't see the justification for screwing up basic Friend/Foe target information. I agree with longer lock-on times for Streaks. I think that for LRMs, a better implementation instead of drastically reduced range for lock-on, and longer lock-on would be to have less missiles actually hit the target.

However, how LRMs are implemented into the game now it is very hard to tell how many missiles EVER hit a target so it is sort of difficult to judge this. Plus there are still bugs with LRMs going through terrain, etc.

I think a better solution would be to fix sensors, spotting, and LRM function. Taking ECM completely out of the equation, if a Scout is spotting for LRM fire, lock-on time for that should be drastically longer than if the firer has LoS and is firing on his own. Also, when fired indirectly through a spotter, fewer missiles should have a chance to hit the target.

Then add ECM to the mix. ECM should PREVENT the firer from getting a lock on a target he cannot see. The firer should still be able to get a lock on a target that he can actually SEE though. I'd be OK with ECM slightly increasing lock-on time, but if you can see the target, you should still be able to get a lock.

Just my opinion. PGI may have tested this way of doing things and found that it didn't work well.

[ltwally]

Murrdox, on 10 December 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

Just my opinion. PGI may have tested this way of doing things and found that it didn't work well.

It's pretty obvious that there wasn't any testing of ECM prior to releasing it upon the masses. Just my opinion.

[CoreHunter]

so we all have free C3s fine. LRM locks at range should not be stoped becouse the C3 is not broken unless withen the ECM so targeting data is still shared. Ssrms are in full use on ECM lights so this did nothing but stop the non ECM mechs from boating them.

[Kremator1968]

ECMs are absolutely fine. L2P QQ more.

[Umbra8]

Murrdox, on 10 December 2012 - 11:58 AM, said:

ECM essentially takes away our free C3 computer

Very true, but it only did this for an enemy mech that was within it's 6 hex (180 meter) jamming radius. Which is fine, actually. It means a ECM mech that can get within an enemy group takes away all their targeting data. It's still very powerful, but when it has the radius limit it's riskier and requires more tactics and situational awareness than it does now. I understand the desire to deal with guided ordinance like LRMS and SSRMS as well, and TT doesn't translate well in that instance as those weapon systems worked quite differently there than in this sim. I could see arguing that guided ordinance would lose lock when it enters the 180 meter jamming bubble and would just travel straight on its last known path before detonating on whatever it ran into.

[CoreHunter]

You lern to dodge LRMs and we will talk. Or you can go play CoD and get your point and click rocks off.

[Reggimus]

hmm, feedback.. well its all been said before, but I'll throw my lot in the pot, if for nothing more than to show my opionion and add to the numbers.

ECM should not stack, it should only increase the size of the umbrella feild. 1 ECM should be able to counter mulitile within the same umbrealla. This allows teams with multiple ECMS to increase the area that they cover, but still gives the oposition a chance if they only have 1 ECM.

ECM should not block targeting of mechs that you have LOS on under 500m, but should increase targeting time by a factor of about 2. It should stuill block mech-type, loadout, damage etc. Friendly units would not be able to inderectly target.

SSRM should have a dumbfire mode added, so they can act like regular SRM2's, this could be achived by switching modes, or allowing them to always fire as a regular SRM2, or if you wait for target acqusition it would home-in.

These are just my thoughts, if ECM dosn't chage, thats fine, it it does, thats better.

Edited by Reggimus, 10 December 2012 - 12:22 PM.

[RainbowToh]

Well 65 pages of feedback, so bear with me if someone else have suggested this before.

Right now ECM completely negates SSRMS n LRMS. I think that is terrible. I know that whats the counter ECM is for. Even so for a single 400000 cbills item to negate 2 whole weapon systems is not good. Yes I agree they should be affected.
How about increasing the time to achieve lock and making losing lock on ECM mechs easy? And bring back the % to miss for streaks from the previous patch when shooting at ECM mechs. That Streaks are still viable but severly hampered.

The ECM should be made more expensive to give it a sense of the complex electronics involved.

Cheers

[Big Bad Wulf]

Rhinehardt Ritter, on 10 December 2012 - 11:04 AM, said:

Wow? Creativity. Bunch up under and ecm bubble and rush the cap.

I'll one up you then. I take atlases in centurions WITHOUT ECM. So there.

REALLY? THAT'S YOUR ARGUMENT? Kind of SAD.

Again, you want tactics? You know, you should be able to accomplish the same thing nearly using terrain if you are GOOD.

ECM takes away a lot of the skill. YES..in REAL life I supposed you want to be as OP as possible. >BUT THIS IS A GAME AND SHOULD ACTUALLY BE FUN AND CHALLENGING<

There you are... so what are you complaining about? you seem to do well with or with out ECM.

"Fun" is very subjective... what is your idea of fun, because for me taking down a target with a handicap is what I consider fun, hence why I like ecm, I could not see them coming makes me think on my feet, makes it more "difficult" especially I dont use LRM's or SSRM's.

So how is ECM taking out your "FUN"? have you been losing alot to a bunch of lights lately?

[MadaO]

Marcus Wulf, on 10 December 2012 - 10:35 AM, said:

Yes strategy and creativity too! Like using it to mask you assault force and smash through prepared defenses.

"smash through" sounds so dramatic. More like "walk through the open fields" like how newbie pugs tend to do. LRM stopped that stupid practice. Now ECM lets you do it again. No wonder you are happy.