2028 replies to this topic

[ClaymoreReIIik]

Hello ladies and gentlemen,

please excuse the rather long post but in order to be constructive I try to explain the point I am trying to make.

I feel the current approach to electronic warfare is rather unbalanced.

If you take "rock, paper, scissors" as the definition of a balanced game the current implementation of ECM creates a game where ECM equipped Mechs are "Rock" and "Scissors" at the same time and come with a special rule saying "Paper cannot be played".

While I do agree that lock-on weapons like LRMs and Streaks needed a counter-strategy I think the current "you can not lock at all in a radius of 200 meters around any ECM that runs in disrupt"-approach is just plain too strong to stay.

While I do agree that the idea to have a counter-mode against ECM is an absolute necessity I kinda feel that giving that counter mode to the ECM-module itself is just plain stupid. "The only way to beat rock is to choose rock", would be the analogy here.

So here is what I think would be a good fix:
ECM itself:
Keep ECM at 2 modes. Mode 1 would be "cloak" that is similar to how disrupt works now. You can not obtain a hard lock outside of 200 meters on an ECM-cloaked target. Tag from outside of cloak-radius allows for indirect fire. Lock-on times on cloaked targets are trippled (but locking on cloaked targets stay possible at all times, just takes forever and then some).

This will make light mechs still largely protected from Streaks while giving the Missile players at least a theoretical chance to beat them. (After all if you manage to get the lock you did a hell of a dance in a tincan, might as well be rewarded for the effort.)

Mode 2 for the ECM is disrupt. This mode will not allow the target that the ECM-mech has hard-locked to use any lock-on weaponry. The idea that an ECM-Commando should have a payback option to get back at the Streak-a-pults makes a lot of sense and yes I agree its really fun. This option should stay in because it further reinforces the "scout vs LRM-boat" or "Rock beats Scissors" that a balanced game needs. Instead of just making it a "radius around you"-bomb it should be a "one target at a time"-scalpel though, IMO.

To stay in the above mentioned analogy here comes the "Paper" to beat above mentioned "Rock". Beagle Active Probe (BAP) should have 2 modes as well. Mode 1 would be "improve" that works as BAP works now. This mode will be utterly obsolete against ECM-cloaked targets, but will be good against targets that have no ECM-protection. Mode 2 will be "counter" that works like ECM in counter-mode works now. It will cancel the effects of one ECM in range around you. Additionally BAP in counter-mode should provide a "lock-on time reduction" and "target info gathering"-speed bonus against the countered ECM-mech.

Those changes will have the following effects. "Rock" (ECM mech) will beat "Scissors" (Mech without Electronic Warfare gear) because it will have a harsh impact on Scissors ability to target and/or do fire support. "Paper"(Mech with BAP") will beat "Rock" because it will be able to take "Rock's" advantages away and makes the "Rock" it's countering an easier target.

Scissors (Mechs without EW-equipment") will not have sacrificed the tonnage and slots for the ECM or BAP and therefore have a slight advantage when it comes to the "bang for the tonnage" comparison.

Right now taking ECM is strictly better then not having ECM. Right now ECM-equipped lights are (for none-US-based players) nearly impossible to kill unless you pack ECM yourself so your streaks still work. The direct fire guns are impaired because of the lagshield and streaks are useless against ECM unless you can counter it.

If you choose my solution you can give all Mechs the ability to pack ECM and BAP and do not have to restrict the usage to certain chassis either. Missile boats will make sacrifices to pack BAP, Brawlers will make sacrifices to fit ECM and some guys might just choose to play without EW-equipment in order to be stronger against either.

I hope nobody proposed this before, I did not really bother to read 91 pages of feedback, sorry.

[Tolkien]

Abivard, on 16 December 2012 - 12:01 AM, said:

I see no relationship of the number of posts equating Player skill, that stat like most is rather meaningless.

Maybe your just vain, but, If you feel you are a troll that is your opinion of yourself,
If you also felt offended that I could care less if you 'take your ball home', good.

I think he meant his K/D ratio, which you can bring up under your forum profile. I think he was saying that based on his gameplay stats he's a better player.

And he was calling you a troll (Jeg kan forsta engelsk er ikke ditt forste sprak, men du ma lese noye...), and looking over your past posts I mostly agree with him.

If you would post a well reasoned argument of why you think ECM is balanced, I'd be glad to have the chance to debate it, but you're just insulting people who disagree with you, calling us trolls, whiners, etc. These forums exist so us beta testers can debate the gameplay merits of new equipment and features, something which I haven't noticed you do once in this thread.

Please join the conversation productively by explaining why you think ECM is good the way it is (I think I understand this is your point of view, no?)

Edited by Tolkien, 16 December 2012 - 01:10 AM.

[John Clavell]

The only odd thing about ECM in my mind is it seems to carry over some properties of null-signature system. As per the double blind system, which is pretty much how MWO works with it's LOS based detection. If you can see it, you can target it. This is obviously the case with ECM also. Just because a mech has Guardian ECM does not mean you can't see it and target it. I'd be interested just to know why the design team implemented this? I don't have a massive issue with it, as I stated before, I think ECM has brought some cool new twists to the overall gameplay and balance. The biggest negative feedback on ECM seems to centre around the aforementioned text. What was the bases for this upgrading of how ECM effects the game beyond it's normal scope?

[Red squirrel]

ClaymoreReIIik, on 16 December 2012 - 01:07 AM, said:

Hello ladies and gentlemen,

please excuse the rather long post but in order to be constructive I try to explain the point I am trying to make.

I feel the current approach to electronic warfare is rather unbalanced.

If you take "rock, paper, scissors" as the definition of a balanced game the current implementation of ECM creates a game where ECM equipped Mechs are "Rock" and "Scissors" at the same time and come with a special rule saying "Paper cannot be played".

While I do agree that lock-on weapons like LRMs and Streaks needed a counter-strategy I think the current "you can not lock at all in a radius of 200 meters around any ECM that runs in disrupt"-approach is just plain too strong to stay.

While I do agree that the idea to have a counter-mode against ECM is an absolute necessity I kinda feel that giving that counter mode to the ECM-module itself is just plain stupid. "The only way to beat rock is to choose rock", would be the analogy here.

So here is what I think would be a good fix:
ECM itself:
Keep ECM at 2 modes. Mode 1 would be "cloak" that is similar to how disrupt works now. You can not obtain a hard lock outside of 200 meters on an ECM-cloaked target. Tag from outside of cloak-radius allows for indirect fire. Lock-on times on cloaked targets are trippled (but locking on cloaked targets stay possible at all times, just takes forever and then some).

This will make light mechs still largely protected from Streaks while giving the Missile players at least a theoretical chance to beat them. (After all if you manage to get the lock you did a hell of a dance in a tincan, might as well be rewarded for the effort.)

Mode 2 for the ECM is disrupt. This mode will not allow the target that the ECM-mech has hard-locked to use any lock-on weaponry. The idea that an ECM-Commando should have a payback option to get back at the Streak-a-pults makes a lot of sense and yes I agree its really fun. This option should stay in because it further reinforces the "scout vs LRM-boat" or "Rock beats Scissors" that a balanced game needs. Instead of just making it a "radius around you"-bomb it should be a "one target at a time"-scalpel though, IMO.

To stay in the above mentioned analogy here comes the "Paper" to beat above mentioned "Rock". Beagle Active Probe (BAP) should have 2 modes as well. Mode 1 would be "improve" that works as BAP works now. This mode will be utterly obsolete against ECM-cloaked targets, but will be good against targets that have no ECM-protection. Mode 2 will be "counter" that works like ECM in counter-mode works now. It will cancel the effects of one ECM in range around you. Additionally BAP in counter-mode should provide a "lock-on time reduction" and "target info gathering"-speed bonus against the countered ECM-mech.

Those changes will have the following effects. "Rock" (ECM mech) will beat "Scissors" (Mech without Electronic Warfare gear) because it will have a harsh impact on Scissors ability to target and/or do fire support. "Paper"(Mech with BAP") will beat "Rock" because it will be able to take "Rock's" advantages away and makes the "Rock" it's countering an easier target.

Scissors (Mechs without EW-equipment") will not have sacrificed the tonnage and slots for the ECM or BAP and therefore have a slight advantage when it comes to the "bang for the tonnage" comparison.

Right now taking ECM is strictly better then not having ECM. Right now ECM-equipped lights are (for none-US-based players) nearly impossible to kill unless you pack ECM yourself so your streaks still work. The direct fire guns are impaired because of the lagshield and streaks are useless against ECM unless you can counter it.

If you choose my solution you can give all Mechs the ability to pack ECM and BAP and do not have to restrict the usage to certain chassis either. Missile boats will make sacrifices to pack BAP, Brawlers will make sacrifices to fit ECM and some guys might just choose to play without EW-equipment in order to be stronger against either.

I hope nobody proposed this before, I did not really bother to read 91 pages of feedback, sorry.

There are some nice ideas in your post but then it would break down to every mech needs a BAP equipped.
And now ECM gets completly wasted.
I think the problem really is as you say it's rock and siccors with a special paper protection mode.
I myself are not a big fan of the P-R-S balancing model and I think it is ok for things to be stronger than others in certain circumstances.
But ECM is plain overkill. Also it was desinged purely to destroy a 5 or 6 SSRM CAT build.
Now we got loads of 2 to 3 SSRM ECM builds (+lag shield -collisions)
Bravo that is the only way to make the SSRM situation worse.
And then I agree the Streakcat is a strong and cheesy build but you can kill it.
A few Gauss, Large lasers, LRMs in the face. It feels a bit like the devs overreacted on a build they dont like.

[ClaymoreReIIik]

Red squirrel, on 16 December 2012 - 01:28 AM, said:

There are some nice ideas in your post but then it would break down to every mech needs a BAP equipped.
And now ECM gets completly wasted.
I think the problem really is as you say it's rock and siccors with a special paper protection mode.
I myself are not a big fan of the P-R-S balancing model and I think it is ok for things to be stronger than others in certain circumstances.
But ECM is plain overkill. Also it was desinged purely to destroy a 5 or 6 SSRM CAT build.
Now we got loads of 2 to 3 SSRM ECM builds (+lag shield -collisions)
Bravo that is the only way to make the SSRM situation worse.
And then I agree the Streakcat is a strong and cheesy build but you can kill it.
A few Gauss, Large lasers, LRMs in the face. It feels a bit like the devs overreacted on a build they dont like.

The thing is if everyone brings BAP everyone is sacrificing 1.5 tons and 2 crit slots to counter a guy who sacrifices 1.5 tons and 2 crit slots. Then you have everyone in the match with 2 crit slots and 1.5 tons less for armor and weapons. Seems balanced to me. Maybe counter-mode should not give additional boni against the countered mech, but thats a rather minor tweak overall, I believe.

The problem with MMOs having components that are strictly better then others is, that if you have one thing that is better, everyone will ONLY run that ONE thing. It gets old too quick. the R-P-S balancing system provides for higher diversity which leads to more interesting match-ups and matches.

[Tolkien]

ClaymoreReIIik, on 16 December 2012 - 01:41 AM, said:

The thing is if everyone brings BAP everyone is sacrificing 1.5 tons and 2 crit slots to counter a guy who sacrifices 1.5 tons and 2 crit slots. Then you have everyone in the match with 2 crit slots and 1.5 tons less for armor and weapons. Seems balanced to me. Maybe counter-mode should not give additional boni against the countered mech, but thats a rather minor tweak overall, I believe.

The problem with MMOs having components that are strictly better then others is, that if you have one thing that is better, everyone will ONLY run that ONE thing. It gets old too quick. the R-P-S balancing system provides for higher diversity which leads to more interesting match-ups and matches.

I agree that Rock, Paper, Scissors is better than what we have now, where ECM is the counter to ECM (Rock>Rock?) Jam/Counter mode.

That said, I think that gameplay is better served by soft counters, like AMS that made even standing out in the open survivable for a good amount of time.

ECM is in many ways a hard counter in that it now requires an LRM mech to stand between 181m and 199m or to have a friendly dedicated to tagging the enemy. Before when a fast moving light would run out in the open with no regard for cover or evasive movement, 6 volleys from 2x LRM15 would usually reeducate him, now if that light mech has ECM all he has to worry about are ridiculously ineffective hit detection on direct fire weapons.

And the situation with streak SRM is even worse in that it doesn't fix streak SRMs it just makes them available to the mech with more friendly ECM nearby.... to me this made the problem worse.

P.S. I now run a commando 2D with 3x streak launchers and an ECM because, well it's too good not to use.

[Abivard]

if you haven't noticed you haven't bothered to read. debate game merits, don't make up lies.

ECM counter needs to be stronger than disrupt.

Otherwise it is working like pgi wants it to, other modules and equipment to be introduced will again change things, the time to balance is after most elements are in place, not the second that one new element is introduced to the game.

To refuse to change when change occurs is not wise.
Shouting down opposing views is not conversation, there is a vast difference between saying 'you insertname are on drugs' at the start of a post and saying, 'damn trolls always starting a post with a personal insult.'

As to whining, yes 80% of anti ECM posts seem to come down to whines about broken boat exploits, LRM cats with xl100 engines. A1's with 6 streaks all 'broken and nerfd', inability to farm newbs, like before. prima donnas forced to make friends to survive, the utter horror, having to actually develop team skills. The waving of TT canon when it suits but ignoring everything else.

Like, why is there a mech bay? isn't that omni-tech on IS mechs? well, yes it is, but we all like it so no one really says anything,

Captured clan tech? sure, but where is the maintenance and parts supply chain? etc....

ikke google Bokmål til meg ;p

[DrKronic]

effect of ecm, public matches are even bigger rapefests, raven-3L here I come

[Red squirrel]

Okay I really did it:

Bought an AWS-8R with 4xLRM15 and TAG
and know what besides the rediculous TAG range of 450m
It works just so bad. Had an D-DC with ECM and it took forever to lock on.
Then if you dont hold on target perfectly your lock breaks again
quite quick (which is realistic but makes it unplayable).
In the end I got 2 volleys on the Atlas.....not very convincing.
With TAG it should basically be an instant lock as long as you got your pointer on a mech.

[StUffz]

Red squirrel, on 16 December 2012 - 02:39 AM, said:

Okay I really did it:

With TAG it should basically be an instant lock as long as you got your pointer on a mech.

Have you fired LRM while enemy was marked? It should basically hit although you still get a lrm lock counter.

[Kusak Snowtiger]

Red squirrel, on 16 December 2012 - 01:05 AM, said:

Wow that must have been the one time TAG worked.

Might be a bit late. But part of the answere to why you still got hit by incoming missiles is the possiblity of they were targets on the spot you moved into. Like leading with ballistic's. Mech is their okay it will be here in a couple of seconds pivot and fire. Havent been using the number of LRM';s I used to becauce of the killer flight time making me have to lead mechs by 2 map grid's <snickers> but that is probably why you got hit. Either that or yeah Tag did manage to find you. Which si very possible against a tag equiped team even a small four man.

I dont want to see ECM go away. But I do fall in the camp that I am seriously getting tired of seeing only primarily four mechs on the field. The four that can carry ECM being the primary ones you see. I also do want to see it tuned a bit sooner than later. Cloak the mech carrying. And increased lock on times for any mech around the carrier instead of making them completly invisible. ECM block's radar targeting. It does not Block line of site targeting which means once I have visual on a mech I should be able to lock onto it and target it and getting readings off of it. No one else can share those but I should be able to have them. Just my opinion. a Bit of a tune up is all it needs. Because right now it is definetly the all powerfule system till it gets tweaked a bit.

[40oz to Freedom]

I really don't see how they go from

"I am going to be honest with you ECM is a game changer so let us know how you feel about ECM on the forums because lately I think you guys have been holding back and not telling us how you really feel."

to

"People are thinking we need to severely 'nerf' the ECM. This is not the case at all. There is already 1 counter-ECM item in the game (TAG), and likely there will be a couple more involving modules and weapon effects."

Apparently we've all been wasting our breath.

Edited by Jubelum, 16 December 2012 - 03:38 AM.

[Mordin Ashe]

StUffz, on 15 December 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

Well, there are ways like...
- TS communication - coordination helps to avoid that someone gets into line of fire

Me:"Hey, guys, we are being ECM jammed. Which mech I see are friendly and where are you?"
Teammates:"I am the raven on D4." "Atlas, D5." "Cataphract, standing on the hill."
Me:"There are two ravens, three atlases and three cataphracts in the area and I can't see a thing on radar. I have no idea which one is friendly and which one is enemy. even if you tell me. Try jumping instead!"

TKd 5 seconds later.
Just for your imagination. TS nor any voip helps when you have blind radar. Unless all teammates have the same camo, you just can't say the difference. Period.

StUffz, on 15 December 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

- Formation discipline - avoids to get into line of fire

There was a group of three mechs when the enemy charged in and ECM jammed us, now we can't see who is friendly and who is enemy. The only thing formations are good for is that the enemy may feel like they are killing some noobs playing according to a military handbook. No formation can help you when ECM jammed whatsoever. Period.

StUffz, on 15 December 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

- shot calm and precisely and not hectic

Me:"Hey guys, I just totaly headshoted one ***** charging me and not shooting at all ... eh, what, TK? Are you kidding me?!?!?!"
Trigger discipline can't help at all against ECM. Period.

StUffz, on 15 December 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

- don't shoot while a friend is walking into your target. if he does yell at him

Hard to tell friend from enemy when you don't know who is who. +1 to that yelling part though, I like that one

StUffz, on 15 December 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

By the way. "Q" should toogle on/off to see who is friendly mech or not. Only point is maybe that ECM interferes IFF transponders as well if you are within the ECM bubble.

Yep, ECM does many nasty things it isn't supposed to.

[CoreHunter]

isn't supposed to? Realy i thought it was working as intended....

[Thorn Hallis]

I'd leave ECM the way it is now but would change the lock on process for LRMs. Make it so that the lock on process allready starts when you have your crosshair over an enemy 'Mech, at twice (or more) the rate you would have with a targeted 'Mech.

€dit: And for those who don't want to constantly press "Q" to see if the 'Mech they are shooting at is friendly I'd suggest to change the color of the crosshair to blue when hovering over a friendly 'Mech.

Edited by Thorn Hallis, 16 December 2012 - 04:34 AM.

[Hekalite]

Quote from Paul from this article ( http://www.pcgamer.c...t-mode-release/ ):

“The effect [of ECM] is working as intended and forces players to play a lot smarter,” he said. “Specialized Mechs still have their place on the battlefield but they are going to need the assistance of their teammates to succeed. If you plan on taking specialized Mech into a match, plan wisely and have alternate weapon systems that will help you with mid to long-range combat. People are thinking we need to severely ‘nerf’ the ECM. This is not the case at all. There is already 1 counter-ECM item in the game (TAG), and likely there will be a couple more involving modules and weapon effects.”


1.5 tons worth of equipment counters LRMs, SSRMs, BAP, and 2 targeting modules. It requires either another ECM module, available on a limited number of mechs only, or tag plus LOS to counter. This is the very definition of unbalanced. To hear one of the devs say that this is "working as intended" is very disturbing to me. I am somewhat reassured that there are additional counters coming, but I feel that this sort of system should have been withheld until the counter systems were ready.

[Marcus Tanner]

Abivard, on 16 December 2012 - 02:02 AM, said:

if you haven't noticed you haven't bothered to read. debate game merits, don't make up lies.

ECM counter needs to be stronger than disrupt.

Otherwise it is working like pgi wants it to, other modules and equipment to be introduced will again change things, the time to balance is after most elements are in place, not the second that one new element is introduced to the game.

ECM being as strong as disrupt means that ECM is working the way PGI wants it to. You seem to be projecting your desires on the dev team.

They think that TAG is a good counter to ECM as it is. Increasing range just means that it's accessible to LRM boats as well a scouts. Scouts usually work within the 450m envelope anyway.

They don't think ECM is a problem in this patch, as it is.

Abivard, on 16 December 2012 - 02:02 AM, said:

As to whining, yes 80% of anti ECM posts seem to come down to whines about broken boat exploits, LRM cats with xl100 engines. A1's with 6 streaks all 'broken and nerfd', inability to farm newbs, like before. prima donnas forced to make friends to survive, the utter horror, having to actually develop team skills. The waving of TT canon when it suits but ignoring everything else.

Like, why is there a mech bay? isn't that omni-tech on IS mechs? well, yes it is, but we all like it so no one really says anything,

Plenty of the people who are providing negative feedback have certainly changed... to ECM-capable mechs like streak-armed Commandos and Ravens. I've switched to an Atlas D-DC. People have switched to using mechs that don't bring LRMs at all. People are adapting, they just liked it better before when they had more options.

I don't recall anyone complaining that their streakcat doesn't work any more, outside of that silly Youtube video where the guy's mechbay had a gausscat, streakcat, an AWS missile boat and some other nonsense.

I have heard a few people say that they use lock-on weapons to handle poor frame rate and/or ping, and I've heard a few people cite the Extra Credits advice on providing easy-to-use weapons for the sake of new players (re: boob tube). I've heard people say that they use it as a workaround for the netcode problems and lagshield problems encountered when facing lights. Those all seem like reasonable arguments to me.

I don't recall anyone lamenting the death of LRM spam with reference to a down-engined missile boat that dedicated all its tonnage to LRMs. If that's what you think all the complaining was about, your telepathy helmet seems to be on the fritz.

---

I'm surprised that the mechbay doesn't charge for replacing parts or for the use of factory equipment necessary to change out options. However, the economy of this kind of game is very important and I'm willing to cut them a lot of slack in that department.

You're right that it will provide issues for the implementation of omnimechs, but I'm happy to let them cross that bridge when they come to it.

Being able to fire a weapon only once in a 10-second period would be a little lame, so letting players fire twice as fast while doubling armor and structure seems like a perfectly reasonable thing to me, and brings heat back into the equation for a lot of mechs that could otherwise ignore it. The heat track doesn't work as it did in the tabletop, but I can understand why they wanted it to work this way. I can also understand the increase in weapon ranges, which was always a compromise made for the sake of an enjoyable tabletop game experience.

I don't mind PGI ignoring tabletop rules when it is necessary or helpful for the game. However, I think ECM not only doesn't fit background or tabletop rules or how ECM works in "real life" but it also causes game design problems (most pertinent being that it is far and away too efficient for its tonnage).

[Kellea]

ECM is a bit strong in my opinion. Not on the mech that features it but the range of the ecm-bubble is too big - this way almost every mech in a team can use ecm if they stay close and there are about 2 mechs featuring ecm on the team (which happens pretty often). This destroys any missile tactic.

[StalaggtIKE]

If they insist on keeping it this way, then allow every mech to equip it. I'm tired of playing the same chassis.

Edited by StalaggtIKE, 16 December 2012 - 07:40 AM.

[ICEFANG13]

You know, I'd much rather not have ECM on every mech, I'd like it to be a helpful teamwork based thing that only some mechs can equip, but I agree, the completely id1otic design of counter rock with rock means that without changes, I do wish all mechs would be able to carry ECM.

I want them to fix it, its so easy to fix, but if they won't, at least let everyone have rock too.

As a player, look at your team, based on the number of mechs in game:
1 of 4 Commandos,
0 of 3 Jenners,
1 of 3 Ravens,
1 of 4 Cicadas,
0 of 4 Centurions,
0 of 5 Hunchbacks,
0 of 4 Catapults,
0 of 3 Dragons,
0 of 5 Cataphracts,
0 of 5 Awesomes,
1 of 4 Atlas,
4 of 44 mechs

Means that you should see an ECM mech every game, but only 1 per 11 players, if everything is balanced. Now I will admit, some mechs were not used often before ECM, although they were a possible mech. Tell me how many games is it where there is 1 ECM mech on the teams (both of them) on one match, and the next match there are 2, and then 1 and then 2, that would mean that ECM mechs are comparable, but not the best just by what people use.

I had a game with PUGs with 8/8 ECM on it, just twice, not even a one time thing, that speaks wonders for this terrible design. ECM needs some love to make it good, but not the best, like how every mech should be.