2028 replies to this topic

[Garagano]

What puzzles me is that: why are encrypted data streams from enemy to enemy target systems are interrupted by ECM, while the friendly data streams are not interrupted?

if ECM scrambles all electromagnetic frequencies in a range of 180m, why not the OWN too?

Yeh, MechWarrior is not ultra realistic and so.... but this ECM makes no sense so far. Not to mention the unbalance of the ECM system. So, scramble ALL system in the ECM range: enemy AND friendly!
That will make it more balanced IMHO

[stjobe]

DeaconW, on 15 December 2012 - 03:33 PM, said:

What's magical is you claiming to be able to keep track of all 8 of your teammates at all times without any assistance in this game and then pretending IFF isn't a BIG DEAL in real warfare.

I'll still play your little game tho'...

Three points:

1. How do you know "what my team-mate is shooting at" if you aren't sure who your teammate is?

2. No one said anyone was "utterly incapable of identifying friend or foe"...that is a straw man argument (google logical fallacies if this stumps you).

3. Given your claims, if you play any of your matches without disabling your HUD (Cntl-Shift-F11) you are a hypocrite. Pls video a match where you have complete SA with your HUD disabled to prove how easy it it so we can learn from your awesomeness. Otherwise, I intend to ignore your irrelevant posts and will encourage others to do so as well.

1. You could, for instance, keep track of just one team-mate and fire at what he fires at. If you can't keep track of one team-mate I don't know what to tell you.

2. The actual quote from another thread was this:
"Yes i can see them, but i can also see the enemy (otherwise i wouldn't be deciding whether to fire). If there are no blue or red triangles there's no way to tell friend from enemy."
This threw me because I didn't realize people were so dependant on those triangles.

3. I had a match just a few days ago where my HUD bugged out; I had no target rectangles and no IFF triangles. I still ended up with three kills and two assists. I also had a match where my HUD was completely gone, much like hitting shift-F11. That one netted me no kills, but mainly because I had no reticule so I couldn't tell where my weapons were pointing without firing them. In neither of these matches did I have any problems of identifying friend or foe.

I mean, you and your team-mates start out together, you march in generally the same direction, and you meet a bunch of 'mechs coming the other way. It can't be that hard to figure out that the ones coming head-on isn't your buddies?

[MacKerris]

stjobe,

Let's assume that I don't know what all of my teammates are piloting. Le us even take it a step further and say that everyone has the same mech and paint job. Now.....with only my eyes, how I discern my team mates? If we are to take the game to the point that we call it a SIM, then ECM could remove electronic tell tales. Which is why in the real world military craft have visual identifiers to remove some of the problem.

On the other hand, this is a game and it might be nice to be able to tell friend from foe. Even at the expense of a touch of realism. In PUG play I see this being possibly different than in the "metagame" whenever it starts.

Until we can have more control over how our mechs are painted the only sure way to tell friend from foe is the tell tale. If it is gone due to ECM then all combat becomes a TK zone. I for one do not think that would advance the game with the general populace.

[Tolkien]

stjobe, on 15 December 2012 - 03:42 PM, said:

I mean, you and your team-mates start out together, you march in generally the same direction, and you meet a bunch of 'mechs coming the other way. It can't be that hard to figure out that the ones coming head-on isn't your buddies?

I've been in half a dozen situations this weekend where an enemy ECM was in effect during a firefight near a piece of terrain where I would see two of the same light mech running around the hill.

If the assault mechs nearby hadn't noticed the order they went around the hill, and even assuming they came back into view in the same order (!!) it would be a foolish wager with the friendly fire fairy to shoot at either of them.

I have to ask if you are not encountering these situations or what since you seem supremely confident in your ability to know who is who at all times without some sort of IFF.

[stjobe]

MacKerris,

Enemy ECM doesn't remove the IFF triangles until you've encountered the enemy. At that point you should have a rough idea of your team's composition and vectors ("two Phracts on the left flank, a Hunchie to my right, and a Jenner way out on the right flank, two Atlas in the tunnel").

I'm aware there's situations where it might get confusing (like the one Tolkien describes above), but generally speaking you shouldn't have to rely on your IFF markers to know if the Atlas that's bearing down on you is friendly or not.

Edited by stjobe, 15 December 2012 - 03:51 PM.

[Tolkien]

stjobe, on 15 December 2012 - 03:50 PM, said:

I'm aware there's situations where it might get confusing (like the one Tolkien describes above), but generally speaking you shouldn't have to rely on your IFF markers to know if the Atlas that's bearing down on you is friendly or not.

Hang on a second... I for one rely heavily on IFF markers to know who is who in the middle of a hairball, and failing IFF markers I would like to have one of

-team colours
-team cammo/markings

Just like a real fighting force does in case the electronic IFF goes down during ECM.

[twibs]

Abivard, on 15 December 2012 - 02:42 PM, said:

where do you guys get ideas like 'a trial awesome should be able to get wins over a tricked our atlas ddc' and the game is unbalanced because it can't?

From the game. On a serious note, I don't think anyone has said that.

The problem is that for the matchmaker the trial atlas is JUST AS VALUABLE than the fully pimped out ECM-atlas. Both are assault mech, so one team get's one of each. There is some serious design flaws with that.

If trial mechs only fought against trial mechs, I might actually play them every once and a while just to see how the chassis worked, but right now those oversized heaters are garbage and have no chance against any custom mech.

[DeaconW]

stjobe, on 15 December 2012 - 03:42 PM, said:

1. You could, for instance, keep track of just one team-mate and fire at what he fires at. If you can't keep track of one team-mate I don't know what to tell you.

Nice sidestep.

Quote

I mean, you and your team-mates start out together, you march in generally the same direction, and you meet a bunch of 'mechs coming the other way. It can't be that hard to figure out that the ones coming head-on isn't your buddies?

In a good match with teams using good tactics, no, this isn't what happens. I am beginning to wonder if you even play this game or just have fun trolling. In any case, your responses are too outrageous to take you seriously. So I won't anymore. If you want to be taken seriously, pls post your uber video of you being able to id friend or foe in *every* case, without a HUD. We'll wait.

Tolkien, on 15 December 2012 - 03:55 PM, said:

Just like a real fighting force does in case the electronic IFF goes down during ECM.

I'd just stop, dude...trying to have a rational conversation with an irrational person Isn't worth our time. Abivard makes more sense than this person...

twibs, on 15 December 2012 - 03:59 PM, said:

From the game. On a serious note, I don't think anyone has said that.

Get used to that quizzical feeling when reading Abivard posts...

[StUffz]

DeaconW, on 15 December 2012 - 02:57 PM, said:

Without team custom paint schemes...how do you propose PUGers not lose SA when there can be identical mech types on both sides on the field? I am not saying it is a effect ECM shouldn't have...just baffled that you can't understand the issue. If the mechanism in MWO for altering your paint scheme wasn't so flawed, you could coordinate team colors in chat before the drop and minimize this effect...but alas, that is all but impossible. 8v8 it is easier as the unit can have colors...but then no one gets to bring their founders or hero mechs. Not that they would want to...anyone not bringing an ECM mech to an 8v8 is hurting his team.

Well, there are ways like...
- TS communication - coordination helps to avoid that someone gets into line of fire
- Formation discipline - avoids to get into line of fire
- shot calm and precisely and not hectic
- don't shoot while a friend is walking into your target. if he does yell at him

By the way. "Q" should toogle on/off to see who is friendly mech or not. Only point is maybe that ECM interferes IFF transponders as well if you are within the ECM bubble.

Edited by StUffz, 15 December 2012 - 04:06 PM.

[DeaconW]

StUffz, on 15 December 2012 - 04:02 PM, said:

Well, there are ways like...
- TS communication - coordination helps to avoid that someone gets into line of fire
- Formation discipline - avoids to get into line of fire
- shot calm and precisely and not hectic
- don't shoot while a friend is walking into your target. if he does yell at him

Absolutely true...but none of those were offered by the OP and all of that is not typical of the average PUGer.

it also doesn't negate the fact that visual and electronic IFF is real and useful on real and imaginary battlefields.

Edited by DeaconW, 15 December 2012 - 04:06 PM.

[Czardread]

Maybe buffing the bap so it could counter SOME of the ECM could work. by some i mean, it could allow the guy WITH the BAP (not his fellows) to target enemies in the ecm bubble, but without relaying the targeting info (AKA red square) to its teammates. it could even have a slower targeting time to "compensate".

still, i think ta a limit to 2 ecm's per 8 mechs would still be the best way to prevent the ECM fiesta of some matches without resorting to direct nerfing of the ecm (although i still think that 180m bubble is a bit much, it could be 100m).

anyway, just my 2 cents.

[steelblueskies]

stjobe, on 15 December 2012 - 02:50 PM, said:

I just had an eye-opener in another thread which made me understand why some people dislike ECM so much; the poster in question boldly stated he cannot distinguish friend from foe without the red and blue triangles above them.

As baffling as that seem to me, and as much as it saddens me, it does explain a bit of the disconnect between my own experiences with ECM (doesn't affect my game very much) and some other players (claims it's destroyed their game completely).

I just wonder if it's very common that one cannot distinguish friend from foe without having them marked with coloured triangles?

easy, next few drops hit right shift+f11 to turn off your hud, and try to keep iff straight when a brawl happens. that's easy enough to visually demonstrate. for bonus points do it while using thermal vision to really *enhance* the effect. need some ir tape on the mechs that indicate side a or b as custom decals/paint doesn't help with thermals on.

[StUffz]

DeaconW, on 15 December 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

Absolutely true...but none of those were offered by the OP and all of that is not typical of the average PUGer.

it also doesn't negate the fact that visual and electronic IFF is real and useful on real and imaginary battlefields.

I think we are thinking too much on open games. Fixed teams or guilds are already handling as mentioned. Friendly Fire only appears when you are not training with a team...

Czardread, on 15 December 2012 - 04:19 PM, said:

still, i think ta a limit to 2 ecm's per 8 mechs would still be the best way to prevent the ECM fiesta of some matches without resorting to direct nerfing of the ecm (although i still think that 180m bubble is a bit much, it could be 100m).

anyway, just my 2 cents.

My words...

[Red squirrel]

stjobe, on 15 December 2012 - 03:50 PM, said:

MacKerris,

Enemy ECM doesn't remove the IFF triangles until you've encountered the enemy. At that point you should have a rough idea of your team's composition and vectors ("two Phracts on the left flank, a Hunchie to my right, and a Jenner way out on the right flank, two Atlas in the tunnel").

I'm aware there's situations where it might get confusing (like the one Tolkien describes above), but generally speaking you shouldn't have to rely on your IFF markers to know if the Atlas that's bearing down on you is friendly or not.

Oh damn why can't people in forums - just for once - admit that they are wrong?

But no "generally speaking" you are right and all we others that had hundresds of situations where it is not clear who is firend and who is foe are just idiots.
Especially looking at your signature I had assumed that you play light mechs and as such you will flank and come around corners and not be able to always tell who is who.

Edit: Damn and again I fell for the troll...... So back on-topic:
The ECM is just a crazy piece of equipment. Guardian, Angle and null signature all in one. 2 slots 1.5tons no heat. ANd it cancels lock on, target information, missles, all modules, BAP.
I just wonder why they did not include a laser reflection effect to it. Also it makes AMS look aweful.
And then the argument that TAG is a valid counter. That's just a joke.
And besides all these balance issues it is just plain bad design to have a mechanic that benefits the team that brings more. 4 ECM vs 3 ECM One team gets to rain missles the other looses.

Edited by Red squirrel, 15 December 2012 - 04:53 PM.

[stjobe]

DeaconW, on 15 December 2012 - 04:04 PM, said:

it also doesn't negate the fact that visual and electronic IFF is real and useful on real and imaginary battlefields.

No argument there, it's very useful.

Let me put it this way then, and see if you can understand why I was a bit baffled by that statement I quoted:

The effect of ECM on LRMs and Streaks never bothered me much, I never boated either. Those effects were just another game mechanic to be worked around (use direct-fire weapons under ECM, use LOW when out of ECM). No, the best part of ECM for me was the electronic fog-of-war it creates; I love it. I love the fact that sometimes your mini-map doesn't show you where your team is or where the enemy is; I love the fact that sometimes the IFF triangles flicker and disappear. For me, it makes it so much more exciting when I have to disregard those instruments and just look out the cockpit glass and use my own two eyes to decide who's who, what my target should be, and then try to take that target down.

For me, that change alone has made MWO a much more interesting game to play. Having to rely on your own wits and your own eyes to make a difference is exhilarating in a way that pressing R to get a nice new target square never could. It was great not to have that almost perfect information of the enemy's whereabouts, or for that matter your own team's.

So for me, it's almost second nature to always try to keep track of where my team is and where the enemy is; I do it constantly throughout the match. I'm not saying I always know where everyone is; of course I don't. But if the IFF triangles disappear and the battlegrid says "weak signal", I do have more than a rough idea of who's who around me.

So when that poster stated that "if there are no blue or red triangles there's no way to tell friend from enemy", I was thrown for a bit. I guess I assumed everyone did what I do, and it hadn't really occurred to me that if one doesn't, ECM and the electronic fog-of-war it creates isn't a blessing, but a curse.

From the strong reactions my post created I understand that it is indeed perceived as a problem, and I acknowledge that. For me, it's still something that gives the game a greater value, but I understand now that it's not like that for everyone.

So sorry if I offended anyone or sounded like a moron. I was just having an epiphany. I'll let you guys go back to your regular scheduled ECM-bashing now

Edited by stjobe, 15 December 2012 - 04:54 PM.

[Czardread]

More means of countering ecm is what this game needs to end the ECM FOTM. limiting the number of ECM's per team is also a good idea, doing both would be perfect (when command console comes up, it may also have to be limited, specially if it allows things like airstrikes or AOE attacks).

[ICEFANG13]

They should never have to limit anything on either team other than a very broad number, like, 8 man teams, tonnage limits, must have the same number of lights(etc) on each team. No way should ECM be limited to 2, it should be fixed. I never heard that suggestion for streakcats?

You know, they should limit the amount of streakcats per team to 1, it would be great.

[steelblueskies]

StUffz, on 15 December 2012 - 04:39 PM, said:

I think we are thinking too much on open games. Fixed teams or guilds are already handling as mentioned. Friendly Fire only appears when you are not training with a team...



My words...

or when bugs happen, and they happen regularly. your wingman dies, and the rest of your friendlies have been off the map for a bit due to ecm removing their markers, its snowing on frozen so visibility with thermals off is pretty much small las max range. a target rounds the bend and shoots at you.
do you A) return fire immediately
B ) say something in team chat asking if someone is there and pray for a response
C ) run away
i've tried A) before and eaten a tk penalty. now if you have a fully prearranged drop and or know its an enemy chassis your team did not have, great. but without identification much less paintjobs, how are you distinguishing mutliple atlases?

this is actually somewhat more punitive in a chassis intended to be highly mobile.

now this isn't to say one cannot get some work done with no iff or hud. rather that it takes a normal task and makes it drastically higher risk, unless you expect teammates to shoulder the load you aren't holding up. (ex light scouting or something intended to be out there alone then run back.). furthermore as most machines try to get BEHIND their enemies in a fight, the mechs closer to your cap might not be friendlies either.

now me, i consider the toned down version while inside an ecm bubble tolerable(the flickerid), whereas no hud is astronomically bad. however in something that must decide to fire at range or not, that cannot close rapidly, it can be bad news, and i can fully understand that. imagine knowing a friendly light ran up way ahead to 900 or so meters off from your firing position. his iff tag drops as he gets disrupted by multiple ecm's and begins running back to your side of the map. with him are two other light mechs of similar design(though you can not discern this yet at range, they remain small blue blobs on thermal and are almost invisible to normal vision). you have a gauss rifle and all three are moving mostly in a straight line towards you while firing at one another, but lateral crossover movement is making it difficult nigh unto impossible to tell which ones are which even from the fire. which one do you shoot given the information provided? you lost sight of the friendly due to cover. for all you can be certain of all three are enemy machines. do you hold fire? call it bad luck if you tag the friendly?

these things happen. but thank you for bringing this up so i remember to suggest ir paint tags or the equivalent be added to thermal and nv modes to identify sides visually, by default.

edit:saw your last post that went live while finishing this, after post+reload of page. hard to imagine anyone raging at you, pgi or anyone else, though with text it can seem that way(and that short vid, which was sadly both funny and wildly inappropriate). when the situatons that exemplify the problems do appear its teeth gnashingly frustrating. it's like that with most of the bugs or glitches as well. everyone should feel free to state their views, experiences and any supporting reasoning or evidence they can. furthermore debate enables people to flesh out, and further clarify perspective, while eliminating ambiguities. that should generally never be a bad thing. after all a position or perspective unable to survive scrutiny of any sort, may prove to be inherently flawed y'know, and sometimes new perspectives can provide insights that one alone may never see.

as i said before, at the end of the day it is their title and choice of direction, and while we may not know what the grand plan looks like, we can certainly reflect upon the current and past state of things, and rely a little bit on our "spidey sense" or gut, if you will, to try to warn them when we see an iceberg looming and have not yet heard word on anything that will actually avert impact. hells, maybe that impact won't sink the ship even if we prove correct and not just under-informed. i can respect their right to their path and their successes or mistakes as the case may be(and time will tell). doesn't mean we cannot vehemently differ on experiences or perspectives.

(though that ecm streak commando pack mess.. okay i still found that kind of bull. it promotes not scouting without a large pack, which is no longer scouting, it's having a highly mobile advanced force. solo run out ahead and try to spot incomings' scouting is pretty much screwed by that)

Edited by steelblueskies, 15 December 2012 - 05:35 PM.

[warp103]

the long and the short is wait for tuesday and if not fix start talking about a boycott for a day just so the dev take the issue seriously.

At 4 to 1 against ECM you would think that they would at least talk here about it. We are at 90 pages 1790 AP post and basically we are getting the BIG FU we got your money{Founders}. Take it or walk. Boy cot for a day and I bet that will get there attention.

[ICEFANG13]

I agree actually, if all players who hate ECM took a day or two off, they would notice right away. I guess wait until tuesday (annoyingly) and then we'll see.