2028 replies to this topic

[Katt Man]

I play a Jenner, and i would love to see this chassis be able to mount ECM. As for using streaks against it, I have noticed that there is a kinda sweet spot at which SSRMs will lock onto a mech that has ECM on it. Tactics have changed a lot with the addition of ECM, and gone are the days of being LRMed to death. I personally have been dropping larger mechs with my Jenner by hugging my big brother Atlas, then running out from behind it when we close range. There are a lot of other tactics that can be used, such as flanking and going faster... Good Job guys.

[stjobe]

Katt Man, on 15 December 2012 - 01:33 PM, said:

As for using streaks against it, I have noticed that there is a kinda sweet spot at which SSRMs will lock onto a mech that has ECM on it.

From 180 to about 200 meters (it actually seems to be closer to 220m) you can get a lock-on with Streaks. My Centurions have killed plenty of ECM mechs that way.

[LionZoo]

We've had ECM for almost two weeks now, so I think I have enough experience to comment. As it is, ECM is currently, by far, the most overpowered piece of equipment in the game for its tonnage and critical space. ECM's ability to prevent LRM and Streak fire is already over the top and much better than the similar tonnage and critical AMS. However, it also doesn't allow specific targeting data of enemies, which really hurts in terms of picking out locations to target, and it makes focus fire very difficult. I'm not generally someone to shout something is overpowered, in fact, I even started a thread to discuss the tactics of countering ECM before ECM was introduced, but as it is now, my feeling is ECM is WAY overpowered for its tonnage and critical space.

As for TAG countering ECM: TAG very partially counters ECM. TAG allows you to pick out one Mech in the bubble and display it. However, the TAGging Mech still has to dodge fire and keep the Mech in line of sight. Meanwhile, every other Mech in the bubble is still protected AND the ECM Mech doesn't have to do anything at all. Even worse, the TAGging Mech has to hold down a firing button, which tends to degrade that pilot's ability to use other weapons.

Interestingly, my feeling is if the LRM/Streak lock-on prohibition inside 180m were taken out then ECM might not be that bad. Then Streaks would be useful, and LRMs would continue being useful with TAG. Even in tabletop, ECMs allowed LRMs and Streaks to fire. (And let's be serious, dumb firing LRMs is just... dumb.) Just being able to counter weapon systems that weigh much more in tonnage and critical space is what makes ECM so overpowered. Finally, ECM is in the game as part of information warfare. What part of neutering other weapons is information warfare anyway?

Edited by LionZoo, 15 December 2012 - 01:54 PM.

[Red squirrel]

Generally ECM is great but it needs some serious balance:

1) One ECM should be able to create a counter bubble of 180m removing any EMC effects in this bubble rather than to counter 1 ECM within 180m. Because
1.1) Currently it is whoever brings more wins the ECM bubble
1.2) In the current system you can counter an ECM 180m away and thus affect all mechs under this ECM which means your ECM has an effective range of 360m

2) The matchmaker should give both teams roughly the same amount of ECM mechs.
I had plenty of games with no ECM on one team and 4 on the other

3) Talking about 4: While ECM is a great thing we have reached a point where I would call the builds of several 4 man premade team an exploit. I guess everyone knows those 4ECM Commando/Raven capping teams for example. Also a group of 2 to 4 D-DC Atlai with ECM are just completely OP. Especially if it is 2 AWS trials vs 2 D-DC ECM mechs.

4) The complete negation of missle lock on is debatable. The Guardian ECM is no Angle ECM. And after beeing completely OP after the release of Artemis IV missles are now extremely weak.
Especially if one team gets several ECMs and the other team got none it is a huge balance problem. Since one team will get missles raining down while the other team is save.

Edit: 5) ECM makes AMS useless...haven't seen someone with AMS in a while now.


Tl;dr
EMC is fun but it seems to be balanced for premades that plan their drop.
In PUG games it leads to a strong advantage of one team with several ECM vs
another with none or few ECM mechs. This happens especially if you face 4man premades


www.STOP PUG STOMPING NOW.com

Edited by Red squirrel, 15 December 2012 - 01:53 PM.

[Murdalizer]

stjobe, on 15 December 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

Of course the ECM could be allowed to be a game changer, the game is still in development. It's probably going to change several more times before release.

And "100% obsolete and useless"... I see LRM boats in just about every game. I see Streaks used by non-ECM 'mechs every game (and not only just because I use them myself in my Centurions). There's no weapon or 'mech loadout that's been made "100% obsolete and useless".

However, boating is a riskier proposition now, and I see more mixed loadouts than I've ever done. Which, apparently, is what PGI want for the game.

If you want to boat LRMs or Streaks, go ahead and do so. You'll find plenty of targets to fire on.

Streakcat was broken, because it made people feel useless/stunlocked.....can you agree to that?

Now when i pilot my C4(2lrm15, 2 ssrrms and 2xmlas) and come up against any(Light) Mech with an ECM....i feel useless and stunlocked..cant you understand that?


take a look at this scenerio...you and me, on oppsite teams in a match, we are the last 2 guys left....me in my c4, you in 1 of your commandos...would you rather win by...using whatever cover the map provides..thus negating my extra firepower, while you are doing that..im trying to find an open space, from where i might get 1 salvo fire on you, before you close the distance and we get into a knifefight...in the brawl i have 2 streaks and 2 mlas and my armor as my weapons, you prolly have around the same firepower..but you have speed and more manoeuvreable.....fair fight, would you agree?

now put an ECM on your commando.....still a fair fight?....and which scenerio offers more gameplay and counterplay?...pls consider that


so EMC didnt really change much...except flip balance right?

[Abivard]

where do you guys get ideas like 'a trial awesome should be able to get wins over a tricked our atlas ddc' and the game is unbalanced because it can't?

[stjobe]

I just had an eye-opener in another thread which made me understand why some people dislike ECM so much; the poster in question boldly stated he cannot distinguish friend from foe without the red and blue triangles above them.

As baffling as that seem to me, and as much as it saddens me, it does explain a bit of the disconnect between my own experiences with ECM (doesn't affect my game very much) and some other players (claims it's destroyed their game completely).

I just wonder if it's very common that one cannot distinguish friend from foe without having them marked with coloured triangles?

[DeaconW]

Abivard, on 15 December 2012 - 02:42 PM, said:

where do you guys get ideas like 'a trial awesome should be able to get wins over a tricked our atlas ddc' and the game is unbalanced because it can't?

Um...when did someone say that? Also...don't you STILL owe us a TAG training video? Until you address this outstanding request it is difficult to take your other claims seriously...

[DeaconW]

stjobe, on 15 December 2012 - 02:50 PM, said:

I just had an eye-opener in another thread which made me understand why some people dislike ECM so much; the poster in question boldly stated he cannot distinguish friend from foe without the red and blue triangles above them.

As baffling as that seem to me, and as much as it saddens me, it does explain a bit of the disconnect between my own experiences with ECM (doesn't affect my game very much) and some other players (claims it's destroyed their game completely).

I just wonder if it's very common that one cannot distinguish friend from foe without having them marked with coloured triangles?

Without team custom paint schemes...how do you propose PUGers not lose SA when there can be identical mech types on both sides on the field? I am not saying it is a effect ECM shouldn't have...just baffled that you can't understand the issue. If the mechanism in MWO for altering your paint scheme wasn't so flawed, you could coordinate team colors in chat before the drop and minimize this effect...but alas, that is all but impossible. 8v8 it is easier as the unit can have colors...but then no one gets to bring their founders or hero mechs. Not that they would want to...anyone not bringing an ECM mech to an 8v8 is hurting his team.

[Tolkien]

stjobe, on 15 December 2012 - 02:50 PM, said:

I just had an eye-opener in another thread which made me understand why some people dislike ECM so much; the poster in question boldly stated he cannot distinguish friend from foe without the red and blue triangles above them.

As baffling as that seem to me, and as much as it saddens me, it does explain a bit of the disconnect between my own experiences with ECM (doesn't affect my game very much) and some other players (claims it's destroyed their game completely).

I just wonder if it's very common that one cannot distinguish friend from foe without having them marked with coloured triangles?

Absent team colours it's actually pretty hard.

http://en.wikipedia....rcraft_insignia

If you know the term Rondel (edit, 'Roundel) it's generally meant to be a visual insignia identifying friend from foe on an aircraft.

They originally went on aircraft since pilots would have difficulty distinguishing their fast moving kill machines from the enemy.

so in both this game and in real life, it's very useful to have some visual indication like a red and blue circle or an iron cross on each team so you know who you are shooting at.


It's getting pretty tiring seeing you tear people down for not having magical powers. In this case you've gone far enough that there are concrete examples of why your opinion is baseless - I hope you'll be man enough to admit it after reading about why the real world is full of Friend or Foe ID systems - some of them still involving pretty red or blue dots on the unit in question.

Edited by Tolkien, 15 December 2012 - 03:01 PM.

[stjobe]

Really? Do you really need the enemy to be colourized either by paint scheme or by different-coloured triangles to know they're the enemy and not your team-mates?

[DeaconW]

Tolkien, on 15 December 2012 - 02:58 PM, said:

It's getting pretty tiring seeing you tear people down for not having magical powers. In this case you've gone far enough that there are concrete examples of why your opinion is baseless - I hope you'll be man enough to admit it after reading about why the real world is full of Friend or Foe ID systems - some of them still involving pretty red or blue dots on the unit in question.

Getting popcorn and waiting...

[Tolkien]

stjobe, on 15 December 2012 - 03:02 PM, said:

Really? Do you really need the enemy to be colourized either by paint scheme or by different-coloured triangles to know they're the enemy and not your team-mates?

Yes, and so do most professional military organizations to minimize friendly fire.

Aircraft can also have things called IFF - http://en.wikipedia....n_friend_or_foe
Special electronic systems where a friendly unit actually says the equivalent of 'please don't shoot me, I am on your side'.

Your attitude is a serious problem and my days of not taking you seriously are certainly coming to a middle.

[DeaconW]

stjobe, on 15 December 2012 - 03:02 PM, said:

Really? Do you really need the enemy to be colourized either by paint scheme or by different-coloured triangles to know they're the enemy and not your team-mates?

Really? Did you really just ask that? Unbelievable.

[Radar Jammer]

stjobe, on 15 December 2012 - 03:02 PM, said:

Really? Do you really need the enemy to be colourized either by paint scheme or by different-coloured triangles to know they're the enemy and not your team-mates?

[Garagano]

ECM is OP!

I didn't read any of the 89 pages of this thread, so sry if i repeat this statement.

I used to be a superb Jenner Pilot, and i was sorry about my enemy's, who lose glorious in front of my mech.
Then the ECM came, and the ECM 3L Ravens beat up my ***.
I leveled my Raven-3L to ELITE, and now i am sorry about my enemys again...

This device make MANY people sorry. And it make many people to turn away from this game... And that hurts!

[stjobe]

Tolkien, on 15 December 2012 - 02:58 PM, said:

It's getting pretty tiring seeing you tear people down for not having magical powers. In this case you've gone far enough that there are concrete examples of why your opinion is baseless - I hope you'll be man enough to admit it after reading about why the real world is full of Friend or Foe ID systems - some of them still involving pretty red or blue dots on the unit in question.

What's magical with having situational awareness? What's magical with the tried-and-true "fire what your team-mate is firing on"? What's magical with identifying the 'mechs shooting at you as enemy and the ones shooting at them as friends? What's magical about keeping tabs of roughly seven team-mates?

I'm sorry if I stepped on some toes here, but it really threw me that people actually depended on their IFF triangles to the point of not having them made them utterly incapable of distinguishing friend from foe.

Edited by stjobe, 15 December 2012 - 03:26 PM.

[DeaconW]

stjobe, on 15 December 2012 - 03:26 PM, said:

What's magical with having situational awareness? What's magical with the tried-and-true "fire what your team-mate is firing on"? What's magical with identifying the 'mechs shooting at you as enemy and the ones shooting at them as friends? What's magical about keeping tabs of roughly seven team-mates?

I'm sorry if I stepped on some toes here, but it really threw me that people actually depended on their IFF triangles to the point of not having them made them utterly incapable of distinguishing friend from foe.

What's magical is you claiming to be able to keep track of all 8 of your teammates at all times without any assistance in this game and then pretending IFF isn't a BIG DEAL in real warfare.

I'll still play your little game tho'...

Three points:

1. How do you know "what my team-mate is shooting at" if you aren't sure who your teammate is?

2. No one said anyone was "utterly incapable of identifying friend or foe"...that is a straw man argument (google logical fallacies if this stumps you).

3. Given your claims, if you play any of your matches without disabling your HUD (Cntl-Shift-F11) you are a hypocrite. Pls video a match where you have complete SA with your HUD disabled to prove how easy it it so we can learn from your awesomeness. Otherwise, I intend to ignore your irrelevant posts and will encourage others to do so as well.

[Radar Jammer]

stjobe, on 15 December 2012 - 03:26 PM, said:

What's magical with having situational awareness? What's magical with the tried-and-true "fire what your team-mate is firing on"? What's magical with identifying the 'mechs shooting at you as enemy and the ones shooting at them as friends? What's magical about keeping tabs of roughly seven team-mates?

I'm sorry if I stepped on some toes here, but it really threw me that people actually depended on their IFF triangles to the point of not having them made them utterly incapable of distinguishing friend from foe.

Seriously dude, this has got to be one of the dumbest things I've ever read. Have you not ever watched any team sport in like... the history of sports? Just to drive this home, I'm going to point out where teams are clearly distinguished from each other by some form of color or symbol.

Team sports:
Baseball, basketball, football (american), soccer, rugby, lacross, hockey, anything in the Olympics, shirts vs skins in games with friends outside.

Team based video games:
Team fortress 1 & 2, counterstrike, every Halo game (red vs blue essentially), Planetside 1 & 2, Starcraft 1 & 2, all the Worms games, Call of duty, Day of Defeat, etc...

I could go on and on, but teams are almost always given something to tell them apart from one another. In this game all the mech variants look the same save for an optional paint scheme which not everyone owns. So a Cat-C1 looks like every other Cat-C1 on the field unless they have a custom paint job.

For you to say that is just plain ignorant.

Edited by Radar Jammer, 15 December 2012 - 03:39 PM.

[Tolkien]

stjobe, on 15 December 2012 - 03:26 PM, said:

What's magical with having situational awareness? What's magical with the tried-and-true "fire what your team-mate is firing on"? What's magical with identifying the 'mechs shooting at you as enemy and the ones shooting at them as friends? What's magical about keeping tabs of roughly seven team-mates?

I'm sorry if I stepped on some toes here, but it really threw me that people actually depended on their IFF triangles to the point of not having them made them utterly incapable of distinguishing friend from foe.

I'm surprised you have so little imagination or experience to see the problem.

You step around the corner to see two mechs (tank pictures used for simplicity), engaged in combat. ECM has fuzzed your overlay and you have no IFF system on.


You are supposed to choose one to fire on, which is it going to be?

Well if they were obviously different models of tank, like a soviet T72 and an M1 Abrahms it would be easy, but they are not.

If you had a common cammo scheme with all of your forces you might be able to recognize that in a flash, but sadly we don't.

If you had seen which one went around the corner and could make out the tiny differences in loadout of two of the same model of mech you might be able to keep tabs on which one was your buddy but that's unreliable.

The correct answer here is that absent a concrete identification of who the enemy is you do not shoot, in real life since friendly fire might get you hanged, and in the game because friendly fire is both impolite and costs you/your team.

Because we are all have the same mechs available to us, and we all have random paint/skins/loadouts, it is actually very easy to get mixed up when cover and 2 of the same model of mech meet ECM...

If you don't understand this and can't agree with it, you're not worth debating.