2028 replies to this topic

[DeaconW]

Blood78, on 14 December 2012 - 10:49 PM, said:

Best way to get PGI to address ECM is to abuse the hell out of it. Form 4 or 8 man premade ECM team (preferably cmd 2d) with 3 streaks. When you move at top speed and jam everyone, streak everyone to death, AND abuse lack of collison...after enough goon wins like that ECM will be addressed VERY quickly.

This is exactly what I am doing right now for exactly the reasons you stated...at least I hope that is the result.

[Carmaga]

I'm starting to get used to ECM enemies. The only problem is that when you are running in a "PUG" game the teams are mostly unbalanced. It's not rare to see enemy team who have 2-3 ecm's while in your team there ain't any.

Maybe there are not enough players running ECM's but it's unfair if the game drops the ECM players only to the other side of the team. Another question is 4 men pre-made teams who are all running ecm's. The game should prioritize that opponent team would have some players to counter them during "searching matches".

I think the small change for arranging/dropping individual players to different teams regarding their ECM status would make match outcome more unpredictable and turn the tide of the gameplay more addicting, fair and specially fun!

Edit: just had a match where we had 2xDDC Atlases and 2xCommandos (ecm) and the enemy did have nothing. the output was predictable. Despite I was on the winner team it wasn't fun. The match was over pretty quick cause the opponent didn't have a slightest chance.

Edited by Carmaga, 15 December 2012 - 05:28 AM.

[DeaconW]

Carmaga, on 15 December 2012 - 05:15 AM, said:

I'm starting to get used to ECM enemies. The only problem is that when you are running in a "PUG" game the teams are mostly unbalanced. It's not rare to see enemy team who have 2-3 ecm's while in your team there ain't any.

Maybe there are not enough players running ECM's but it's unfair if the game drops the ECM players only to the other side of the team. Another question is 4 men pre-made teams who are all running ecm's. The game should prioritize that opponent team would have some players to counter them during "searching matches".

I think the small change for arranging/dropping individual players to different teams regarding their ECM status would make match outcome more unpredictable and turn the tide of the gameplay more addicting, fair and specially fun!

Again, why are we treating the symptom (unfair matches) not the disease(overpowered ECM)? If the game's equipment is fairly balanced all you need is a chassis, tonnage or BV check in the matchmaker and the games won't be woefully unbalanced. Fix ECM (note, I didn't say, eliminate it) and the matchmaking problem solves itself.

[Stingz]

Mister Zeus, on 15 December 2012 - 04:00 AM, said:

I'm only concerned with how much more I'm relying on Thermal Vision in almost every match because I can't rely on my targeting computer to identify an enemy mech that might be obscured in my field of view otherwise.

The reason this is concerning is that a good portion of PGI's MTX model is cosmetic, i.e. mech paint schemes and the like, and none of that shows up when you play in Thermal Vision. Additionally, some maps practically require Thermal Vision (Frozen City) because of the fog and Thermal cuts right through it. What could be an otherwise brilliant piece of game play based on terrain is rendered obsolete by Thermal Vision.

I'm not sure if the solution is to remove the reduced detection range for ECM, or to simply remove Thermal Vision from the game. Right now, I think removing Thermal Vision would be the best choice as it doesn't force a design change and requires players to enjoy the artwork that the PGI art team has been pouring into this game.

Remove the full on cloak, it's the player's fault for trying to sneak around in a hot pink mech. Besides, radar/lock-on makes camo useless without dedicated stealth tech (Stealth Armour, Null-Sig, Chameleon LPS)

Edited by Stingz, 15 December 2012 - 07:08 AM.

[steelblueskies]

QuackDamnYou, on 15 December 2012 - 12:46 AM, said:

I suspect that there's probably a reverse correlation at work here, at least in part: the players who were the most likely to have enough c-bills to buy the new tech right away (or have the variants to begin with) were most likely to be the players who have played the most and are more skilled and adaptable. Really we don't have a good baseline available in the form of our play experiences because matchmaking is inconsistent. My gut says it's annoying and unfun, but then again so is any time you lose because your team is seriously overmatched, whether due to equipment or skill level.

were we talking of the ecm assault heavy drops maybe. but being the only ecm carrier on a team in a pug and landing against a trio or quad of half cat ecm commando streakers is not exactly hard to have happen. they are *real* cheap in every quantifiable way. zwip there went the tag carrying jenner. zoom, that was the non ecm raven. ... .... .... snickersnack there went the big jenner(cda-3m with ecm). arguably the weapons and ammo plus ecm system might cost as much as the chassis to mount it on, nevertheless it's still dirt cheap, and in numbers.. well..

was actually what drove me to stop last night before the clock hit birthday time(today) in spite of the free days premium time burning. relatively sane loads in pugs with one or two other guys, only bringing the one ecm mech betwixt us and generally seeing lrms, and other systems in a spread, and then landing with 3ecm +3streak commandos, and 1-3 ecm d-dc's or ecm ravens with streaks consecutively.

frequently being in a situation where there was just absolutely nothing one could do other than die trying to score a little meaningful damage. frankly, just frack that malfing bullbutter. it's not worth putting up with to use the free premium time. or put another way, it's so unpleasant i wouldn't sit through it if paid to.

i've used streaks in the past, and tag, and lrms, and more. but the n+1 ecm garbage and sacraficing guns to try, repeat *TRY* to counter it with tag only pushes the fast ecm streaker further ahead, as they continue to sacrafice? thats right nothing. and if you didn't drop with n+1 to counter or fill up a prearranged group it IS absolutely possible, even likely, that you will get crapped on too.

i enjoyed watching the stream last night. four man dropping in pugs with voice and stomping by and large. so many dead trial mechs. mostly balanced drops too, was hopeful enough to hop on, to my later chagrin. time to enter lala land for some focus testing. 8's.

[CatHerder]

DeaconW, on 15 December 2012 - 05:11 AM, said:

This is exactly what I am doing right now for exactly the reasons you stated...at least I hope that is the result.

Sadly, PGI hasn't shown the wherewithal or presence of mind to pay attention to that. Previously, they only paid attention to the LRM whiners who couldn't use cover, so they over-nerfed the LRMs. Then the LRM wussies got their whine in, and LRMs were buffed somewhat, but their trajectory was "fixed" to permit cover to be more effective. This made them balanced.

Then it was the Streakapult's turn: people who were unable/unwilling to engage them at range started whining very vocally that they were OP'd. And yes - if they get in close, they're definitely something to beware. However, here's the kicker: it's easy to shoot the missile pods off a Catapult (translation: DISARM THEM), and in addition to that, SRM4 or SRM6 cats are FAR more dangerous. I wonder how they're going to nerf those OP'd buildouts..

Here's my point: there's no such thing as an OP'd buildout because every single buildout has its drawbacks. An all-SRM6 Catapult can core an atlas in two well-placed salvoes, but is woefully low on ammo and has heat problems (thus, it's balanced). A Gausscat can also cause tremendous damage at range, but they're slow, heavy, and the weapons can easily be destroyed (so, balanced), etc, etc.

However: there CAN BE (and, currently, IS) such a thing as an OP item - i.e. an item that has no downsides in its use. Can you guess what that item is? (for the dummies out there, it's ECM!). Employing an OP item in a mech build is what makes the Mech OP'd or imbalanced. The whole point of the game is to build out your Mech while having to balance these 6 variables: heat, weight, space, firing range, ammunition, and protection (armor/AMS/etc). If you strike the right balance, you can beat some mechs, but not others. The trick is to properly choose which groups you intend to defeat while having teammates that can defeat those that can defeat you.

Currently, ECM makes that near-impossible because now builds (and entire teams, really!) that were wholly balanced and viable are entirely useless.

The reason? The blanket effect in disrupt. That's the only thing really, truly wrong with it. I'd agree that BAP should also detect ECM mechs within, say, 360m, but the game can reach balance (perhaps not the best, but a workable balance) without that.

The only people happy with ECM the way it is are PGI, and the brawler crowd who just love to advance in the open, without having to think through their approach/strategy/tactics. Those people want to turn this game into COD with giant robots. They'll probably watch Pacific Rim soon and come whining and bitching that the game should support giant robot hand-to-hand combat with special moves and combos and all sorts of crap...

Anyway... let's hope PGI wakes up and fixes ECM. I can think of a ton of *BALANCED* uses for ECM (without the blanket-on-disrupt effect) in lighter mechs (recon, sneak cap, tagging, true target spotting, etc). But as-is, it just detracts from the experience that MWO used to be.

The first clue should have been the statement "ECM is out and it is a game changer!". No single item should so radically change the way a game is played. Influence, yes. Introduce new possibilities, yes. But outright make weapons and mech buildouts 100% obsolete and useless: NO! People may have invested a good amount of effort into tweaking those builds to their style of play. Turning them to scrap simply tells them to F**K OFF and find another game. Worse still: Failing to acknowledge the issue is more indication that they should beat it.

Edited by CatHerder, 15 December 2012 - 08:36 AM.

[Gremlich Johns]

ECM mechs should not be able to function normally. Meaning, if they are preventing RADAR usage (for detection and missiles with lock-on capability) then the ECM mech has the exact same limitations. That is the way real ECM works (And, yes, I have the requisite experience to say so)

[Stingz]

Gremlich Johns, on 15 December 2012 - 08:48 AM, said:

ECM mechs should not be able to function normally. Meaning, if they are preventing RADAR usage (for detection and missiles with lock-on capability) then the ECM mech has the exact same limitations. That is the way real ECM works (And, yes, I have the requisite experience to say so)

Battletech TT ECM has much less strength than both, they need to dial back the advantages.

[Briarios]

this game is totally broken....with every patch.....they do more thing wrong than wright.....
I give up playing this peace of softwaregarbage.......its to frustrating to see those f***** lights kill the big ones.....
lets play MW4.....its much better than this game.......and the mechlab there is 1000 times better than this.
I mean ...wtf? every f****** mechs here is an omnimech......at this time i am sorry to activate my premium...absolutly waste of money and time.

[DeaconWinters]

ECM, hmm, what a way to inbalance a game, certain weapons become useless when your in their range, and I have never seen 1 being used to stop an opponents ECM.

There is no problem making them harder to target, thats great, but to completley disrupt LRM and SSRM is unreal, there is already a defence against these weapoms, AMS, and its area effect is to large in my opinion.

[Kaziganthi]

CoreHunter, on 15 December 2012 - 03:05 AM, said:

just imagine what the angel ecm will do...

We becomes GODS....

Oh wait...

[MacKerris]

I am still trying to wrap my head around the idea the ECM can affect TAG, as it does not by canon. Nor can ECM counter TAG in the real world nor an other where physics applies. TAG uses only one thing to "guide" the missiles to the target and that is light. Unless ECM can bend light it cannot do anything to interfere with TAG no matter where the tagging Mech is.

[Joseph Mallan]

CoreHunter, on 15 December 2012 - 03:05 AM, said:

just imagine what the angel ecm will do...

Hard to say with guardian working as Angel ECM is described.

[Gremlich Johns]

Remember that even light is composed, ultimately, of electrons. However, since an ECM suite is intended, in BT TT or video games since, to disrupt radar, which operates at frequencies outside of visible light (to include lasers) ECM cannot disrupt a laser beam. Unless you are using something like Shtora, of course, which we are not.

go here to see the frequency bands Radar can be used on.

from wiki:

Radar jamming refers to radio frequency signals originating from sources outside the radar, transmitting in the radar's frequency and thereby masking targets of interest. Jamming may be intentional, as with an electronic warfare tactic, or unintentional, as with friendly forces operating equipment that transmits using the same frequency range. Jamming is considered an active interference source, since it is initiated by elements outside the radar and in general unrelated to the radar signals.
Jamming is problematic to radar since the jamming signal only needs to travel one way (from the jammer to the radar receiver) whereas the radar echoes travel two ways (radar-target-radar) and are therefore significantly reduced in power by the time they return to the radar receiver. Jammers therefore can be much less powerful than their jammed radars and still effectively mask targets along the line of sight from the jammer to the radar (mainlobe jamming). Jammers have an added effect of affecting radars along other lines of sight through the radar receiver's sidelobes (sidelobe jamming).
Mainlobe jamming can generally only be reduced by narrowing the mainlobe solid angle and cannot fully be eliminated when directly facing a jammer which uses the same frequency and polarization as the radar. Sidelobe jamming can be overcome by reducing receiving sidelobes in the radar antenna design and by using an omnidirectional antenna to detect and disregard non-mainlobe signals. Other anti-jamming techniques are frequency hopping and polarization.

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 15 December 2012 - 12:12 PM.

[stjobe]

CatHerder, on 15 December 2012 - 08:34 AM, said:

The first clue should have been the statement "ECM is out and it is a game changer!". No single item should so radically change the way a game is played. Influence, yes. Introduce new possibilities, yes. But outright make weapons and mech buildouts 100% obsolete and useless: NO!

Of course the ECM could be allowed to be a game changer, the game is still in development. It's probably going to change several more times before release.

And "100% obsolete and useless"... I see LRM boats in just about every game. I see Streaks used by non-ECM 'mechs every game (and not only just because I use them myself in my Centurions). There's no weapon or 'mech loadout that's been made "100% obsolete and useless".

However, boating is a riskier proposition now, and I see more mixed loadouts than I've ever done. Which, apparently, is what PGI want for the game.

If you want to boat LRMs or Streaks, go ahead and do so. You'll find plenty of targets to fire on.

[DeaconW]

stjobe, on 15 December 2012 - 12:16 PM, said:

Of course the ECM could be allowed to be a game changer, the game is still in development. It's probably going to change several more times before release.

And "100% obsolete and useless"... I see LRM boats in just about every game. I see Streaks used by non-ECM 'mechs every game (and not only just because I use them myself in my Centurions). There's no weapon or 'mech loadout that's been made "100% obsolete and useless".

However, boating is a riskier proposition now, and I see more mixed loadouts than I've ever done. Which, apparently, is what PGI want for the game.

If you want to boat LRMs or Streaks, go ahead and do so. You'll find plenty of targets to fire on.

Says the Commando 2D pilot. Can't play a player here, dude.

[Ketzktl]

CoreHunter, on 15 December 2012 - 03:05 AM, said:

just imagine what the angel ecm will do...

It will turn off your monitor until you type in the secret passcode being displayed on your screen

[stjobe]

DeaconW, on 15 December 2012 - 12:42 PM, said:

Says the Commando 2D pilot. Can't play a player here, dude.

The Commando 2D pilot who's been playing about five matches in his 2D since the patch, but have been taking his Centurions from Basic to Master.

[Tolkien]

Just so noone gets confused by what I am about to say I still think the ECM is way too good for what it requires to be used.

That said I have started piloting a commando 2D outfitted as follows
10 double heatsinks
170xl engine
3x Streak SRM2
ECM (of course)
And a medium laser

I'm going to experiment with Endosteel and switching the medium for a small to get an AMS onboard, just for that situation where another identically built commando with streak SRM gets after me - really the only weapon that truly deals with lights. And having an ECM on board means that when I drop with a buddy of mine similarly built it's hard to jam us.

Anyway, I still think it's brokenly overpowered, but if the devs are going to keep it as is, I'm sure going to use it.

[Locan Ravok]

Synra, on 14 December 2012 - 08:35 PM, said:

I know it seems like an extreme reaction, but I am almost to this point too, and I have put up with frustrating overpowered and broken stuff in this game for 5 months now. But nothing has sucked the fun out of MWO as badly as ECM is now. I am really starting to feel mind-blown that PGI hasn't put out a hotfix and removed it at this point.

This whole issue reminds me of a recent Extra Credits video, which you can watch here:

http://penny-arcade....de/counter-play

Setting aside all of the other arguements of why ECM is broken, the simplest answer is that it is just not fun to fight against it.

Loved the video.