2028 replies to this topic

[xXxBANExXx]

I was actually going to complain

Xeren KelDar, on 04 December 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

As it stands right now ECM is over tweaked. I think the core concept is pretty good, but just overtuned right now. One thing that could help counter it for LRMs at least is NARC and maybe tune NARC duration to permanent, but susceptable to damage. For instance it would never go off cooldown, but could get destroyed by the LRMs you just landed on the mech.

With just assault mode there seems to be even more of a shift in dynamic to cap the base, only now its both teams trying to be ninjas and do it while under an ECM bubble. This issue may get resolved in the future with CW, but right now seems to really detract from the game as it is negating the big stompy mech battles.

Finally, these may be bugged issues or not, but it seems ECM is blocking targetting for me even while I maintain LoS to target. If bugged or intended I think it needs to be looked into. This has happened to me at less than 90m (ECM bubble), 200m, and out to 600-800 all while I could plainy see the target. Blocking the lockable weapons (SSRM) seems to be the intent and I'm ok with that, but totally negating the red box which really does nothing to direct fire weapons seems excessive. One you lose LoS, I'd be ok with the ninja raven dropping off targetting/radar/etc.

To summarize:

Core Concept pretty good and promises lots of potential

Execution is overtweaked and leads to gameplay issues making it a negative addition to the current system in its current state (both game's state and ECM's)

I was actually of the opinion that i hated ECM, but once i was used to it, I have had some of the most intense, and satisfying battles thus far in the game.... even ones my team loses I guess everyone can delete the nerf LRM/SSRM posts!

[Murakaigan]

I think everything would be fine if ECM's didn't stack. If one mech with ECCM can counter all ECMs within 180m, then there would be little reason to have more than one ECM mech per lance.

[Navid A1]

the problem with streak cats is just the ridicules amount of knock back
same goes with ac2s.

fix that and everything will be fine.

[Riven Cale]

Nauht, on 05 December 2012 - 01:14 AM, said:

The problem isn't ECM - the problem is you. You relied too heavily on easy mode lockon weapons.

There's a difference between too much reliance on a type of weapon and it being rendered irrelevant. LRMs just aren't worth it in the game's current state. Mechs I ran which had LRMs (not exclusive boats either, long range platforms mixing LRM and direct fire) are just wasting space. It's still possible to get some hits, but since ECM the matches I've been in I might get off one or two volleys and that's it. For the weight investment in the weapon, it's more effective to go entirely with direct fire weaponry.

In a balanced role warfare setup, it'd work well. What I've seen in 8v8 matches so far, balanced set ups are ineffectual.

I don't want to see any radical adjustments. Just some slightly stronger counter to ECM because it completely outclasses TAG, BAP, and Artemis. Also class balancing in 8v8 needs to happen.

[SI The Joker]

ECM has definitely changed the game, PGI wasn't lying at all. It's frustrating as all getout to play against, and fun as all getout to play with.

I do think it needs some tweaking though.

- I think that the ECM should be limited to light mechs only. Specifically the Raven and Commando - ALL variants. (I would say Jenner too, but WOW the tears were strong when that was announced, so I'll play nice in the sandbox.) If your assaults want to get in close to brawl, they had better be using the light mechs with ECM as escort to get them there. I believe it would create a fantastic mechanic where light mechs actually... you know... support their assaults properly. It also continues the abilty for the Raven to continue it's main role - Electronic Warfare.

- I like the ECM bubble, but I think it's a little too large right now. I'd say decrease that size by 33% down to 120 or so, or maybe even less. In combination with the item above, it would force a team who wants the full stealth bubble to run at least 2 light mechs thereby adding even more versatility to the configs we'd see. It would also force said team to have some kind of strategy to keep the bubble intact... formations, positioning... Echelon Left, anyone?

- This last one is really to appease everyone who says LRMs are dead, and I'm sure to catch alot of flak for it. (Please note I am NOT including SSRMS in this idea!) Either a separate beam item or something that can neutralize ECM at range. I know TAG isn't meant for that, so I won't suggest using it. As it stands currently, without someone with ECM to actively go running face-first into an ECM protected group (recipe for death) and jam them, there really is no way for proper LRM support to occur. That said, a beam weapon which neutralizes ECM's stealth bubble for say.. 10 seconds might be a viable solution? For it to work, you'd need to hit the ECM mech with it - not an ECM protected mech. That should give LRMs enough time to lock on and fire.

Just a couple ideas. This thread has been... entertaining... to read.

Thanks for reading!

[MADSix]

I find ECM to be very frustrating. I was unable to lock with missiles, so I had to move up. I am slow so when I was finally able to lock I got 2 salvos off before no longer having any radar. At that point I can't get away, can't shoot cause I don't want to hit a teammate (no one appears on radar no icons) and the only option is to just die.

If it is going to stay this was I guess I will have to buy an ECM capable and just play that, because as of now LRM = useless. Not knowing who is on your team = TK. Not having a counter unless another ECM is terrible. Also TAG is too difficult to keep on target for more than half second. It is not a valid counter to a 360m bubble where you can't target can't get friend or foe identity,and if you move inside, can't shoot missiles, that has no heat, is always on, has low weight and low crit usage.

Edit: I would like to add, I asked at the beginning of the match if anyone had TAG. Someone said they did, and I told him to use it and I would send the missiles. I did not see a TAGged target the entire 4 mins I was alive.

Edited by MADSix, 05 December 2012 - 08:26 AM.

[Syllogy]

As an Atlas pilot, I have a few perspectives to add.

Before the patch, I ran an LRM Atlas (2 LRM 20's) and averaged 500-1000dmg per game, with only 1 other missile boat and a scout that didn't run up and die, I rarely lost a match. The effect was the same whether I was in a Catapult or Awesome.

Now that ECM has been implemented, it has forced me to change my build into a mech that can engage across multiple ranges.

From what I have seen, it effectively encourages balanced (and varied) builds, teamwork, and diversity to overcome.

4 matches last night saw my team running against 6-8 ECM mechs vs. 2-3 ECM mechs on our team.

We crushed the competition. ECM Atlas' are the focus of the fight. The flocks of Ravens, Commandos, and Cicadas are combat effective, but still no match for a few heavily armed Heavy / Assault mechs that are paying attention.

Below is what I have noticed about ECM, which is why I believe that it is working as intended.

1: This effectively eliminates LRM-heavy auto-wins and discourages heavy streak cats.

2: This does not prevent LRM's from being effective when the target is in Line Of Sight, even without target tracking.

3: ECM does not create an auto-win just because 1 team has more ECM's than the other.

4: Most engagements occur within 100m - 500m anyway, which means that ECM encourages Direct-Fire builds.

5: Since there are only 4 variants that support ECM, ECM is not over-employed.

6: ECM does not prevent the use of TAG-enabled spotting.

7: LRM's are now support weapons as intended instead of the primary source of damage that they were pre-patch.

8: By only allowing ECM mechs to counter other ECM mechs, ECM is not a cast aside worthless mechanic brought to you by BAP equipped mechs.

• Summary: ECM IS WORKING AS INTENDED. LEAVE IT ALONE.

[SiDheBRX]

ECM may or may not be overpowered, I'd say it should be limited in any case to dedicated mechs, i.e. mechs with a dedicated electronic warfare role.

What is breaking the current state of game is that you have Atlai with ECM. Result: mediums, fast heavies practically eliminated, and LRM useless due to the abundance of ECM (i.e. 4-6 Atlai + 2 Raven-teams...).

IMHO, there should be a small number of dedicated chassis ECM-capable, first and foremost the Raven, perhaps even only the Raven.

Balance would be largely restored with this fix only. It could be considered based on more thorough testing whether or not ECM is actually overpowered.

[Jakob Knight]

Syllogy, on 05 December 2012 - 08:13 AM, said:

As an Atlas pilot, I have a few perspectives to add.

Before the patch, I ran an LRM Atlas (2 LRM 20's) and averaged 500-1000dmg per game, with only 1 other missile boat and a scout that didn't run up and die, I rarely lost a match. The effect was the same whether I was in a Catapult or Awesome.

Now that ECM has been implemented, it has forced me to change my build into a mech that can engage across multiple ranges.

From what I have seen, it effectively encourages balanced (and varied) builds, teamwork, and diversity to overcome.

4 matches last night saw my team running against 6-8 ECM mechs vs. 2-3 ECM mechs on our team.

We crushed the competition. ECM Atlas' are the focus of the fight. The flocks of Ravens, Commandos, and Cicadas are combat effective, but still no match for a few heavily armed Heavy / Assault mechs that are paying attention.

Below is what I have noticed about ECM, which is why I believe that it is working as intended.

1: This effectively eliminates LRM-heavy auto-wins and discourages heavy streak cats.

2: This does not prevent LRM's from being effective when the target is in Line Of Sight, even without target tracking.

3: ECM does not create an auto-win just because 1 team has more ECM's than the other.

4: Most engagements occur within 100m - 500m anyway, which means that ECM encourages Direct-Fire builds.

5: Since there are only 4 variants that support ECM, ECM is not over-employed.

6: ECM does not prevent the use of TAG-enabled spotting.

7: LRM's are now support weapons as intended instead of the primary source of damage that they were pre-patch.

8: By only allowing ECM mechs to counter other ECM mechs, ECM is not a cast aside worthless mechanic brought to you by BAP equipped mechs.

• Summary: ECM IS WORKING AS INTENDED. LEAVE IT ALONE.

It's nice that you, personally, pilot a mech that can change roles like that. What about the pilots of mechs like the CPLT-C1, that are locked into the very weapon systems made non-functional at any range by a 1.5 ton item?

Try to think outside your own personal box.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 05 December 2012 - 08:17 AM.

[prox]

SiDheBRX, on 05 December 2012 - 08:14 AM, said:

What is breaking the current state of game is that you have Atlai with ECM. Result: mediums, fast heavies practically eliminated, and LRM useless due to the abundance of ECM (i.e. 4-6 Atlai + 2 Raven-teams...).

This. Sacrifice tonnage and get cool toys. The current system makes a lot of mechs and builds obsolete.

[Massive Diarrhea]

I feel the ECM is the next phase of the seesaw, yes it drastically changes stragies but it also changes game play. Team vs PUG becomes exceedingly apparent here, giving team play and even greater advantage than previously gained. Also, I agree with the absolute negation of streak and sensor range is too extreme. There needs to be limits to the power of any addition to any mech, and even moreso when limited to so very few mech. Even if the equipment is expanded, it will still be essential equipment for a group as its advantages are so very many!

That being said, I love ECM. At least the concept and most of the implementation. I believe what needs fixed is first the distance for sensors, the range of detection is a bit ridiculus. I worked for hours to gain xp to increase my sensor rage by a piddly amount, and with ECM, its worthless overnight. This needs worked on, or change the concept (see below).

Next is locks, I know everyone has complaints one way or the other, espically for streak cats (I hate em too!) but I believe the problem to the lock of streak, challenging to get initial lock (which I feel is perfect, I run with a jenner and 2 streak-2's) but to keep the lock is SO EASY! This needs addressed, needs new lock or modified new lock for each missle group firing, and combine that with ECM creating a very difficult atmosphere (not impossible) for lock and I believe you find your balance. LRM balance is similar, much longer time for lock, and clear LOS and closer distance. Cannot use lock from a friendly mech in ECM range seem quite fair, allows LRMs to require boat players to do some of the work themselves

Another concept of ECM, jamming signals close by. Therefore any mech close should not be able to transmit mech data but we should still see a lock, and distance locks should be able to be aquired, but again, mech data can be cloaked. ECM is for nearby mechs, no long distance, therefore does it make sense to jam ranged sensors at all? Just my thoughts, and I do love this game!

[Kilgore]

Good morning, PGI. I know that the system has only been implemented for a short period of time, but I would like to share some thoughts on it after playing on patch night.

My overall assessment is that it’s a little too powerful. I think the problem with it is how much cover and protection it provides to other mechs not running it. It seems that if a mech can disrupt communications that bad in a 180M radius, then those mechs that can’t be targeted should also not be able to acquire any target locks themselves. I’m going to illustrate how this is shaping up to be a negative impact in the long run. Beyond that, I think most if not all of the problem goes away if ECM didn’t provide cover for other friendly mechs.

If a group of mechs can march in an coordinated, offensive movement, and they have brought their brawler specs, the advantage goes to them. And the only thing that can counter that strategy is more of the same.

Games tend to be more fun when there is a paper/rock/scissors element. But if ECM brawling was rock, LRM support was paper and sniping or wing direct fire support was scissors, well then rock beats paper and scissors. Only rock can defend against rock and it’s because of ECM.

LRM support mechs can’t support well enough because of the difficulty in establishing and maintaining a lock. Not only are LRM boats vulnerable to fast, little mechs running circles around them, but if they can have their DPS kept out of the fight because their team didn’t bring enough ECM, then they are pretty well neutralized. What can make LRM boats successful right now? Have more ECM on your team to counter enemy disrupt ECM.

How about snipers or mechs that try to soften up targets from the side? Well, one of the benefits to having a mech fill this role was that they could also scout somewhat. That capability is gone because they can’t relay target information back. They can’t assist on specific targets because letter designations can’t be identified. What can you do to make this pilot more useful in the fight? Have more ECM on your team or get close enough to target them yourself.

The path of least resistance against ECM is to bring your own ECM and get ready to brawl. Instead of having smaller numbers of mechs performing special tasks in a game, every mech is required to be ready to brawl with the enemy force.

I did see Paul’s reply from Dec 4^th on http://mwomercs.com/...apon-balancing/ where it talked about NARC and TAG improvements. To be fair, those probably had to happen even without ECM.

[fo diggity]

I think ECM is great. Sure, it might need tweaking, but it's great. The depth of strategy is so much better now.

Some thoughts on Streaks, and Streak-CATs relating to ECM:

• Obviously, Streak-CATs needed a nerf. That's pretty much undeniable and I want that to be my first point.
  
• I do think, however, that streak-builds need to remain effective as a low-skill entry option. Games need low-skill options as a part of balance (I know some might disagree with that, EC over at PA makes a good argument for it, IMO). I do like that ECM-negating Streak-commando builds (COM-2D) can be put together for a lower-cost, lower-skill entry build.
  
• I'm worried that LRMs overall are reduced in effectiveness, although part of this, I think, needs to be addressed by the playerbase learning new strategies. I'd recommend a wait-and-see before trying to rebalance that.
  
• Cats particularly as they seem to be very lock-dependent (streaks, LRMs) seem to be effected by this patch. I don't think that's a bad thing, but I'm still seeing people calling for Cat-specific nerfs such as twist-degree nerfs. I'd suggest a wait-and-see before piling on anymore nerfs to Cats though.
  
• Finally, my big concern re: streak-Cats is that while ECM successfully kills the solo-Streak-Cat in pugs, a Streak-Cat/Raven combo is still dangerously effective. If Streaks are indeed supposed to be a boon to players with lower twitch skills, I'm not sure if making them mostly a weapon for pre-mades is the best option. (Counter-thought: it does, however, promote teamwork in pugs.)

Those are my thoughts atm. I do have a streak-Cat but I haven't played it since the patch. I've been mostly running around in my "Shrike" HBK-4SP and trying to ineffectually snipe people with my stock CAT-K2.

Edited by fo diggity, 05 December 2012 - 08:40 AM.

[Garrath]

My suggestion is to improve the functioning/duration of TAG/NARC and perhaps Artemis so they can undo some of the benefits of ECM. Honestly ECM gets way to much bang for the buck and skill based counters (tag/narc) should be way more effective against it than they currently are.

To the missile boaters, and i'm one maybe 50% of the time, redefine your strategy a bit. I'm not going to spell it out for you but all the information you need to be effective is here, just be a little more creative. First match in yesterday, in my missile boat, I had 1320 damage, 3 kills (one was an ecm Cicada), so you can still be effective if you adjust.

[Agent of Change]

Syllogy, on 05 December 2012 - 08:13 AM, said:

• Summary: ECM IS WORKING AS INTENDED. LEAVE IT ALONE.

....Until a reasonable time has passed and then tweak it if it shows it needs it.

Ok a lot of people are upset that the game changes drastically with this addition, some people are upset that it seems powerful, some people are upset that it reduces an entire class of weapons to 50% or less functionality, some people are upset because someone pissed in their cheerios. Some people are happy because it fits their play style, Some people are happy because it makes certain mechs more viable, Some people are happy because it's shiny and new.

Result is -> Disagreement. And it is the first day after the patch. Personally I played about 5 hours exclusively in teh 8v8 sadn box and have formed initial opinions and suggestions for tweaks, by no means do i think my ideas are the end all be all but it is my initial feedback as a beta-tester.

Point is you can not say that any newly integrated feature is 100% perfect and should be left alone inside of 24 hours of it's release, there is nothing that has been introduced to the game, mechanics-wise, that has not been adjusted after drop.

Other that the quoted text I can see where you are coming from given your personal experience, i think the aggregate of our experiences is really going to show the true picture in a couple days.

[HorribleGoat]

I am not a 8 grouper but..

As the game is not all about 8v8 ECM should not be nerfed just to make 8v8 easier. It is suppose to be for HC players amirite?
8 man teams use voiceover to coordinate so use it to spot your targets, heatview is your friend as you can see a mech miles away. And if your tactic is to rush at the enemy it is not the ECM the other side has that gets you killed. Teamwork teamwork teamwork, thats what 8 groups are all about. Change your tactics as groups are only ppl who has the luxury.

Also nerfing it would mean its useless? If anyone can counter it why bother to install it? And if any chassis can take it, again whats the use?

As to

If anything the 8v8 matchmaker should have options to set rules to manage dropweights, tonnage/type/ecm limits per round/challenge and global chat to all groups where they can challenge each other. This would in my opinion solve your problem with all atlas games. They'd probably be able to challenge only other atlas groups. Ability to choose your opponent is what you need, not nerfing the only thing that keeps this game being missilewars. (with this management part here you could have rounds like that if you wanted without forcing it on everyone else.

Drawback here would be teams farming caprushes for eazy money, but this could be monitored via group stats, i.e these 2 groups share lot of same players all the time and all they do is cap cap cap. Also im quite sure most of you would not do this and would report ppl suggesting it.

Also the variety killing Ezrekiel mentions is not seen in PUG games. Sure there are rounds with 4 ecms per side, but so there are where we have none.

And yes my ECM mech is the Atlas DC. It is slow as **** without the XL engine and blows up with it quite often, so if your game has fast ecm atlases with lots of guns odds are theres XL in there too... Core side torso -> problem solved. Also use cover, communicate.. etc etc...

[Gasman 1220]

I hate Streakcat pilots with the passion of a thousand burning suns, but ECM rendering them (and LRMs) basically completely useless is probably going too far.

I think it'd be more balanced if ECM required enemy LRM/SSRMs to reacquire lock after every shot (and it could also increase lock acquisition time). This would still mean ECM would still be incredibly useful and valuable to you and your team. But it wouldn't render an entire class of weapons completely obsolete.

[fo diggity]

MADSix, on 05 December 2012 - 08:11 AM, said:

I find ECM to be very frustrating. I was unable to lock with missiles, so I had to move up. I am slow so when I was finally able to lock I got 2 salvos off before no longer having any radar. At that point I can't get away, can't shoot cause I don't want to hit a teammate (no one appears on radar no icons) and the only option is to just die.

If it is going to stay this was I guess I will have to buy an ECM capable and just play that, because as of now LRM = useless. Not knowing who is on your team = TK. Not having a counter unless another ECM is terrible. Also TAG is too difficult to keep on target for more than half second. It is not a valid counter to a 360m bubble where you can't target can't get friend or foe identity,and if you move inside, can't shoot missiles, that has no heat, is always on, has low weight and low crit usage.

Edit: I would like to add, I asked at the beginning of the match if anyone had TAG. Someone said they did, and I told him to use it and I would send the missiles. I did not see a TAGged target the entire 4 mins I was alive.

Hmm. I hadn't realized how cheap ECM was at the moment. Or that it kills friend/foe highlighting. That's pretty significant.

[Tex Arcana]

Played a match last night where I never saw one red marker.
And my side had no ECM (A PUG with no ECM Mechs).
Note that I was destroyed by a barrage of fire when trying to engage an enemy I could see; but before i could close range I was LRM'd/Focus fired to death.

Edited by Tex Arcana, 05 December 2012 - 08:31 AM.

[Opus]

IMHO: ECM are not OP, but they are being abused in 8 man groups, since there is no weight/Class control on matchmakeing

8 Man groupings - LW's Running a balanced group, we ran against 5 ECM equipped D-DC Atlases + 3 ECM lights ( more than 8 matches similar groupings ), all SRM equipped ( 400m range weapons it seemed ). Our group had 2 ECM lights, and my ECM D-DC...

We got rolled 70 - 80% of the time

So then we ran 4 man group + 4 Pugs, I ran my standard Awesome, or Catapult we had a good mix of ECM's, and Supporting mechs, with Brawlers

We won 90% of the matches

Seems without Matchmaker overseeing a balance match, 8 man groups are turning into Atlas Cluster Fudges

Edited by Opus, 05 December 2012 - 08:32 AM.