2028 replies to this topic

[Nightlife42]

While I like the idea behind ECM this has been poorly implimented.
Its seems like this has been added to counter LRMs which I never found to be too much of a problem unless you were stupid enough to hang around in open spaces. Especially as you have TWO missile warnings. Seriously is it that hard to stand behind a building.
It has tried to do too many things at once.
What I would like to see to balance it a is one of two things
The best option even though I guess it is harder to do is to give a tonnage limt to how many mehcs it can cover. If it only did 150 tonnes for example then you could have an Atlas only cover 1 medium extra than itself or light could cover 3-4 other lights ect.
Or, which is easier to do is reduce the bubble radius (which a few have already suggested in this thread). 180 is over the top. 100 or less would be better to force people to clump together if they wanted the ecm.
They could (should) increase the visible range detection too. Even if a mech has ECM I should be able to visually target if it is in my sights.
As it stands it's getting a little to like world of tanks and I dont want to play world of tanks I want to play mech

Edited by Nightlife42, 05 December 2012 - 08:39 AM.

[nonplusultra]

Tice Daurus, on 05 December 2012 - 06:39 AM, said:

Exactly. This is the problem ECM has right now and you'v nailed it on the head. ECM shouldn't reduce the range this drastically. If you are an LRM boat, if you once had a range of 1000 meters, now the range would need to be 750 meters before you can start to establish LRM lock-on. ...

The ECM should reduce range from 100 percent of normal to 75 percent of normal. So LRMs go from 1000 meters to 750 meters. Now LRM mechs are closer and easier to hit.

If enemy jamming ECM comes within 180 meters of my mech, then my lock-on becomes useless. I will then need to find the ECM mech that is jamming me, kill it with other weapons or try to back out of range somehow to re-establish lock-on OR get another one of my mechs with ECM to counter their ECM jamming.

I think this would be the best way to balance the game.

Yes thats exactly how it should work. I hope the developers read this posts. Its easy to fix that, so we could have the fun back in the game after the next patch.

Herzog, on 05 December 2012 - 06:51 AM, said:

It's been said before, but I'll say it again. ECM has made LRM's and Steaks useless, as evidenced by their complete evaporation from the battlefield.

Yes thats because the range reduction is to heavy. It shouldnt reduce range down to 25%. = See posts above.

[fo diggity]

For those who feel ECM is too OP at the moment but don't want to see the tonnage of ECM increased, what about splitting up the effects of ECM into more "modes"?

Current:

Disruption Mode:

• ‘Cloaks’ friendlies within 180 meters (reduces detection distance to 25% of normal range).
  
• Disrupts enemies sensors (targeting system), as well as targeting communication (sharing of targeting information) within 180 meters.
  
• Disables enemy NARC
  
• Disables broadcasting of TAG (if friendly is within sphere of influences); However, if you TAG a mech with ECM OUTSIDE of their sphere of influence, it allows you and your friendlies to target
  
• Slow down weapon locks by 25%
  
• Slow down target gathering by 25%
  
• Active Probes do not gain any benefits against ECM equipped enemies

Counter Mode:

• Neutralizes 1 nearby enemy’s ECM in Disruption mode.

Concept (rough):

More modes:

Disruption Mode:

• Disrupts enemies sensors (targeting system), as well as targeting communication (sharing of targeting information) within 180 meters.
  
• Disables enemy NARC
  
• Disables broadcasting of TAG (if friendly is within sphere of influences); However, if you TAG a mech with ECM OUTSIDE of their sphere of influence, it allows you and your friendlies to target
  
• Active Probes do not gain any benefits against ECM equipped enemies

Anti-lock Mode:

• Slow down weapon locks by 25%
  
• Slow down target gathering by 25%
  
• Active Probes do not gain any benefits against ECM equipped enemies

Cloak Mode:

• ‘Cloaks’ friendlies within 180 meters (reduces detection distance to 25% of normal range).
  
• Active Probes do not gain any benefits against ECM equipped enemies

Counter Mode:

• Neutralizes 1 nearby enemy’s ECM in Disruption mode.

---

Or would that be too much?

[Kargarok]

Jakob Knight, on 05 December 2012 - 08:16 AM, said:

It's nice that you, personally, pilot a mech that can change roles like that. What about the pilots of mechs like the CPLT-C1, that are locked into the very weapon systems made non-functional at any range by a 1.5 ton item?

Try to think outside your own personal box.

You got options mate. Grab a Tag and and get within 480 and you're back in the game. If that's too close for you, switch to a brawler loadout with a Tag and SRM6's. Those can be way more devasting than LRM's anyday. Don't want to be that close? Get a friend to go tag for you. I've been packing Tags on all my scouts these days, to get in practice for this. Sounds like you might, maybe need to take a bit of your own advice.

I'm loving the thrill of the tactics ECM brings back to the game.

[AlexEss]

Kobura, on 05 December 2012 - 01:44 AM, said:

We had a D-DC, me and a friend in Ravens, and an SRM-cat. We used the Ravens' ECMs to lock down enemy LRM/SSRM units, while one of us (usually me) ensured our squads stayed unjammed. D-DC led fire support on a slow advance, Ravens ensured light attack didn't get Streaked to death. Strong victory.

Don't obsess over ECM, work around it, just let it mesh into your overall game plan instead of derail/override it. Also, TAG un-cloaks enemies it hits...so there's that. Consider a dedicated EW platform or two with BAP ECM TAG and Sensor Module (I also have Zoom and Target Info on my 3L [which I bought today to test out ECM]) so the rest of your team can be 100% combat effective. It doesn't ruin the game, but it does make the enemy expose your team instead of just LRMing to bits what the brawlers "spot" in their close combat for free. Options, it added options.

That being said.. you counter was to have more ECM then the other side... So the OP's complaint still stand and i can see some people being forced out of their mech of choice in order to make a viable team. Now in reality it does not mater as this phase of the MM is not the final one and the phase three system should take some of the kinks out of it. So in essence right now it is just grit your teeth and do the best of the situation like trying new tactics and maybe try a new mech of two (i have personally just take up the K2 PPC version and is playing around with it in preparation for the PPC buff.)

[PhobiaOne]

SiDheBRX, on 05 December 2012 - 08:14 AM, said:

ECM may or may not be overpowered, I'd say it should be limited in any case to dedicated mechs, i.e. mechs with a dedicated electronic warfare role.

What is breaking the current state of game is that you have Atlai with ECM. Result: mediums, fast heavies practically eliminated, and LRM useless due to the abundance of ECM (i.e. 4-6 Atlai + 2 Raven-teams...).

IMHO, there should be a small number of dedicated chassis ECM-capable, first and foremost the Raven, perhaps even only the Raven.

Balance would be largely restored with this fix only. It could be considered based on more thorough testing whether or not ECM is actually overpowered.

The Atlas D-DC was designed to be a Command Mech with Electronic Warfare. So yes it should have it. The way to break the current "Impenetrable Bubble" (whole team running Atlas D-DC) is to wait for Phase 3 when the 8v8 will have weight balancing. This will correct the problem.

[TheSteelRhino]

At this point I'm afraid ECM is a bit overboard. BAP is overly impacted (that might be something of a counter for non ecm mechs don't you think?). In 4 man groups I'm noticing a LOT of ecm mechs. In the 8 mans (my friends gave up before I could try myself) they are seeing teams entirely made up of 1-2 lights (ravens cicada commando with ECM) and remaining mechs Atlas DC.

Of course there will always be folks that take advantage of something. Having said that it becomes a bit much. Wondering if there should be more effect from a "counter" ecm mech than a disruptor. Or again, if BAP was more effect just at reduced range.

Right now, it seems like there is a HUGE motivation to run:

Light mechs -> speed, no knockdown, ECM available (commando, raven, and I consider cicada a light functionally) streaks are no help here to combat them
Assault -> armour firepower (atlas DC has ecm)

not a whole lot of reason to run mediums other than a cicada at this point. It's like you are trying to kill off that weight class. (again, I consider a cicada to basically be a light functionally).

I'm going to say maybe you should have stuck with the tabletop rules on this one. It's just a little to powerful. If we had nice big maps and could see the slow atlas freight train coming...that might be a little different..but we don't. Maybe drop weights or "classful" matching could help.

Edited by Rhinehardt Ritter, 05 December 2012 - 09:05 AM.

[Corvus Antaka]

PhobiaOne, on 05 December 2012 - 08:59 AM, said:

The Atlas D-DC was designed to be a Command Mech with Electronic Warfare. So yes it should have it. The way to break the current "Impenetrable Bubble" (whole team running Atlas D-DC) is to wait for Phase 3 when the 8v8 will have weight balancing. This will correct the problem.

The DC should be running a command console, which when linked with an ECM capable mech like a raven can create an ECM "bubble" of say 250meters? This I'd be ok with. the atlas being equal to the raven? this im not ok with.

I also dislike how now everyone needs to buy one of these ECM mechs to have a viable counter. certainly right now these ECM mechs are flooding us, but still, the point remains, is it now ECM mech or bust?

BAP needs to be a viable solo counter, which again, when linked via command console might give the atlas more range info.

I like what this ECM brings to the table, but PGI is going to need to make adjustments and remove this thing from the DC & work on a whole command console & BAP layer to create proper EW.

[Kurios]

PhobiaOne, on 05 December 2012 - 08:59 AM, said:

The Atlas D-DC was designed to be a Command Mech with Electronic Warfare. So yes it should have it. The way to break the current "Impenetrable Bubble" (whole team running Atlas D-DC) is to wait for Phase 3 when the 8v8 will have weight balancing. This will correct the problem.

Actually, No. The Atlas D-DC should not have ECM. Look it up.

[Wizard Steve]

Love it! Love it! Love it!

It's made PUG-play far more interesting.

Edit: And group play too.

Edited by Wizard Steve, 05 December 2012 - 02:47 PM.

[Thatguyoverthere]

Syllogy, on 05 December 2012 - 08:13 AM, said:

• Summary: ECM IS WORKING AS INTENDED. LEAVE IT ALONE.

This is definitely true in my opinion.

When it comes down to players who use primarily missile based weapons, tagging will soon play an important role in the game. All but one mech (CPLT-A1) in MWO comes equipped with at least a single energy hardpoint, which means that any other missile dependent mech can equip their own TAG and target ECM-cloaked mechs. This also implies that all but one mech is capable of having something besides solely missiles to attack with.

What if the entire team is huddled around an ECM Raven? What if I can't shoot my LRM's at anything?
Well, if the entire team is huddled in one area, that means that a tagging ECM-Equipped mech on MY team can sneak around back and light up some targets without worrying about any ambushes or flanks, since the whole team is in its view. If there is a possible ambush, then chances are it's a mech that everyone can target since it's outside the ECM sphere. Regardless of what type of mech it is, even if it is ECM-equipped, a visually aware team will sight my distress and take out my attacker in no time. Come up with new strategies.

I mentioned this once before, and I'll mention it again. The patch has not even been live for 24 hours. I can see where there is lots of grief over ECM; I doubt any solid strategies have been developed in less than a day's time of playing, even among the entire playerbase.

In good time, people will get used to fighting alongside and against ECM. I feel that everyone should wait at least several weeks before jumping to any conclusions that ECM is the bane of MWO.

Edited by Thatguyoverthere, 05 December 2012 - 09:17 AM.

[Tango Alpha]

I like ECM but not in its current implementation. LRMs are now for the most part ineffective and a waste of tonage. By its nature ECM should give away a targets location. That is how it works in fighter jets anyways. If you are ECM you are producing electronic noise which does defeat radars but the noise should give away your location. A stealth mech would be the logical change if you wanted to sneak. In fact one of the ways stealth is implemented IRL is the complete elimination of electronic noise. No radio, no radar etc.

Also, there should be a way for radar to "burn through" the ECM and get a lock. This happens after a given period of time and/ or within a set distance. Lasers (TAG) should not be effected.

Possible weapon to counter ECM--how about giving us an artillery boat. Then your ECM equiped raven can call in some ballistic rounds and adjust the fire, just a thought.

Every weapon or countermeasure inspires a new weapon or countermeasure.

[Corvus Antaka]

Jyi, on 05 December 2012 - 02:51 AM, said:

I wonder who was the one to make the decision to put ECM in the Commando variant that can have 3 SSRM2's. "Yea, lets put the ECM in the Commando that was already the most popular! Oh, that'll make the other Commandos really likeable!"

Same goes for the Raven variant too. The one with the best weapon slots and fastest engine.. yea, lets make that one better, because people didn't use that variant to begin with. Lets ignore the fact that 4X sucks because we don't have any decent ballistics that weigh less than 1/3rd of the mech with ammo included.

Oh yea.. and the idea that counter-ECM only counters 1 mech.. I have to be blunt here, but that is simply idiotic. It is the number one most moronic decision in this game so far. Make counter-ECM counter everything under it's radius. Now it's "oh, you brought 2 ECM-mechs, we brought 4, good luck trying to ever counter us". It's a fight of who brings more ECM, not real tactics.

ECM is good when it's powerful, but it needs an easy counter. Actually ECM shouldn't even counter ECM, it should be BAP!

This. ECM should be on ALL ravens!!! and not on the ssrm commando but ANY other commando! and no atlas with ECM. Make use of the command console instead. Even the cicada with ecm is iffy imho.

[Smourr]

I also think the atlas with ecm is either to cheap or needs some balance. It is too hard to get so Dev's please Watch them. But the counter function is a cool thing. It gives the Raven a sense on the Battlefield

[Watchit]

ECM's only effective counter right now is more ecm, so that means more ravens and atlai, so add that on top of no weight restrictions and you have a very hard to counter team. Not impossible, but unreasonably hard. The TAG range buff the devs were thinking of and a small ecm nerf would really help.

Edited by Watchit, 05 December 2012 - 09:23 AM.

[Morikuro]

Syllogy, on 05 December 2012 - 08:13 AM, said:

7: LRM's are now support weapons as intended instead of the primary source of damage that they were pre-patch.

This. I mostly play my LRM cat nowadays thanks to the repair costs of the fatlas, and it actually felt fun to play real support to my lancemates? There were a few lrm mechs, and they all acted like support instead of everyone sitting in cover and spamming lrms like no tomorrow. The rest of the mechs were fighting, which meant more locks, and more consistant locks since before it was one or two mechs in the melee on average, who would cut and run when the rain of lrms became unbearable. Now people get in close and fight, and I can support them with my expensive art4 lrms.

I didn't feel like I was in the middle of a bunch of people flinging lrms uselessly (or not), it felt like I was contributing to a battle that you might see in non-optimized-Battletech-land.

[Veevslav]

ECM is a crutch for bad players. That is all it is, players that are too stupid to use cover and LOS to protect against LRMS or streaks.

Anyone that argues it adds a strategic element to the game just wants a crutch.

If a mech is dumb enough to walk around in the open with nothing near to jump behind deserves to get fragged by 400 lrms. As it stands a couple of ECM mechs backing up 4 gauss cats are gonna still **** at that range. It is just the LRMS that got nerfed there.

Whats next a magnetic shield to stop ballistics? Give it to certain other mechs that cannot carry ecm so they are a good paper to someones rock? Or a plasma shield that obsorbs lasers?

Current implementation is garbage and anyone that thinks otherwise just wants a crutch and I will call them on it.

My message to those players.... Get better.


PGI if you are gonna fail to fix the netcode problems, the FPS problems, black screens, gold screens, random crashes and all the other real problems than could you at least quit adding crap to the game that breaks it, if not where do I get a refund at because the game is heading to the graveyard of faildom. Only reason it has any redeeming value is because it is Mechwarrior. Otherwise the game sucks, the fun has been sucked out of it by your "updates".

When I first played in closed beta I loved it, my FPS was smooth and fast. The collission animation bug was bad, but it was better than the current crap. Run past mech get warped back to mech after 4 seconds of runtime and a corner turned.


Bottom line, more QA testing with invites being sent to people that are not 2 streets from the servers or connected via Lan would probaby help you out with figuring out the netcode problem..

Edited by Veevslav, 05 December 2012 - 09:27 AM.

[cerui]

I can't belive this hasn't been said...:BECAUSEOFFALCON!:


Seems I chose a rather interesting day to start playing. Only played like 4 games before the patch came in. But I did run into a group of assaults hugging around a raven...they turned my trial Awesome into molten slag rather quickly.

[Scratx]

Thatguyoverthere, on 05 December 2012 - 09:08 AM, said:

This is definitely true in my opinion.

When it comes down to players who use primarily missile based weapons, tagging will soon play an important role in the game. All but one mech (CPLT-A1) in MWO comes equipped with at least a single energy hardpoint, which means that any other missile dependent mech can equip their own TAG and target ECM-cloaked mechs. This also implies that all but one mech is capable of having something besides solely missiles to attack with.

What if the entire team is huddled around an ECM Raven? What if I can't shoot my LRM's at anything?
Well, if the entire team is huddled in one area, that means that a tagging ECM-Equipped mech on MY team can sneak around back and light up some targets without worrying about any ambushes or flanks, since the whole team is in its view. If there is a possible ambush, then chances are it's a mech that everyone can target since it's outside the ECM sphere. Regardless of what type of mech it is, even if it is ECM-equipped, a visually aware team will sight my distress and take out my attacker in no time. Come up with new strategies.

I mentioned this once before, and I'll mention it again. The patch has not even been live for 24 hours. I can see where there is lots of grief over ECM; I doubt any solid strategies have been developed in less than a day's time of playing, even among the entire playerbase.

In good time, people will get used to fighting alongside and against ECM. I feel that everyone should wait at least several weeks before jumping to any conclusions that ECM is the bane of MWO.

You forget we've known for days exactly what ECM would do and there was a lot of brainstorming about what would likely happen and how to counter, etc.

We don't need weeks to see that what was predicted is happening.

[Psocrates]

as a A1 cat pilot ecm is insane - im firing(streaks) on someone have a solid lock and am at point blank - suddenly a jenner runs up behind me and i can no longer fire and get chewed to peices! i get a lot of ppl felt they were op but to make them useless because of 1 peice of equipment that isnt even mounted in the mech being targeted is going a bit far - double the lock on time reduce accuracy or something as it is i'm off to reconfigure my trusty A1 into a srm cat to maybe have a chance as LRM/STREAK A1 cats are unplayable