2028 replies to this topic

[Corvus Antaka]

vettie, on 05 December 2012 - 10:45 AM, said:

Cutter nailed it.

+1

[NutUpOrShutUp]

I'm not going to comment on my opinion of the recent changes thus far....

But I've never heard/read so many people claiming to quit playing MWO as there were lastnight. I personally saw 15+ people say they were leaving and not coming back.
The second bigger complaint I saw was over the new MC costs. I personally saw AT LEAST 20 people say they are not buying anymore MC as the game isn't worth it, and the costs for what they would buy are too high now.

Just reporting what I saw.

[Umbra8]

ECM has too powerful a suppressive effect on guided ordinance. If someone's running a class of mech that has a heavy emphasis on guided missiles (any catapult except the K2 for example) they're going to have to hope someone (more than one someone, actually) on their team is carrying ECM, TAG or both. They won't be carrying them, as those chassis can't carry ECM, and if they have to put themselves within 400 meters with line of sight and fire a laser to use their primary weapons (that travel slowly, warn the enemy, reveal their position, can be blocked by terrain, shot down by AMS and not all of which will hit in any case) they would just be better served to swap out that weapon tonnage for heavy lasers, as they just shot someone with a laser to do it.

It's fine if you're running a premade and you know what systems are going to be in place. You can plan to run guided ordinance when you are confident your team is going to field enough ECM of its own to make it work. If you're PUGging or god help you you're running a trial mech with an LRM10 in the torso well, it's going to be hard not to feel frustrated about the wasted tonnage.

Keep ECM in line with what it was originally intended to do. Taken from the Battletech wiki:

"The Guardian ECM Suite was introduced in 2597 by the Terran Hegemony^[1]. Designed to interfere with guided weaponry, targeting computers, and communication systems, the Guardian is typically used to shield allied units from such equipment by emitting a broad-band signal meant to confuse radar, infrared, ultraviolet, magscan and sonar sensors.^[2] Affected systems include Artemis IV, C3 and C3i Computer networks, and Narc Missile Beacons. A Guardian can jam a Beagle Active Probe (or its Clan equivalent), but the probe-equipped unit will be aware of the jamming. The Capellan Confederation expanded the utility of the Guardian even more with the introduction of Stealth Armor.^[3] The greatest drawback to the Guardian is its limited range, which extends out to only 180 meters. Sensors can sometimes override this jamming, though by that point the enemy unit is already within visual range and can track the opposition with their own eyes.^[2]"

^{Of note, while the system will jam the C3 network and thus kill the transfer of targeting data between mechs, it did it within it's 180 meter bubble. Most importantly, if you could see you're opponent, locking weapons could still work if you were outside jamming range. You simply could not use systems like BAP or NARC on the target, nor could targeting data be shared from or to jammed mechs. The current ECM model is an order of magnitude more powerful that what is listed here (it currently uses some game elements reserved for stealth armour). I don't think ECM should be removed, it has a role, but the capabilities it has now exceed its original intent and implement a heavy chilling effect on the deployment of guided ordinance in all but the most organised forms of group play.}

Edited by Umbra8, 05 December 2012 - 01:11 PM.

[DocBach]

vettie, on 05 December 2012 - 10:45 AM, said:

Cutter nailed it.

"It has no effect on units friendly to the unit carrying the ECM"

I believe they are referencing that Guardian ECM has no negative effect to friendlies in the bubble. Any attacks going through the bubble get effected.

His second paragraph is right on though, and the Total Warfare rules states:

"Within its effect radius, an ECM suite has the following effects on the following systems. The ECM suite does not affect otherscanning and targeting devices, such as TAG and targeting computers"

[Carnelian]

I like ECM, but I feel that having both modes be part of the same package is a bit much. Have the ECCM be a separate equipment, possibly being mountable on a wider variety of chassi. Also, TAG needs to be more of a hard counter, perhaps by not losing effectiveness inside the 180 bubble. (This might not be necessary if the range is increased to 750 and more people start using it.) Since TAG occupies a weapon slot, it'll by no means be a no-brainer anyway.

[Calzo]

I think it is horrible. Most of the game now seems to be zoomed thermal mode taking shots at some blue blobs. It also makes it harder to coordinate any strategy to the extend that even in pre-made TS groups, there simply is no strategy anymore. I had a lot more fun in the game before this change.

[Vasces Diablo]

As an LRM CAT pilot, I'm still a little iffy on how ECM works.

I'm totally cool with preventing the broadcasting of an ECM bubbled mech. Thus preventing the rain of indirect fire.
I'm totally cool with preventing streak lock.

However, if I can physically see the enemy, I should be able to fire LRMs at them. Slower lock on is cool, less effective tracking is also fine. But a simple item that renders fire support mechs completely useless is a bit over powered (sorry, had to use that phrase).

At the very least I should be able to blind fire LRMs like SRMs.

[Snib]

Vasces Diablo, on 05 December 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

I'm totally cool with preventing streak lock.

However, if I can physically see the enemy, I should be able to fire LRMs at them. Slower lock on is cool, less effective tracking is also fine. But a simple item that renders fire support mechs completely useless is a bit over powered (sorry, had to use that phrase).

The hypocrisy in this is golden.

[ArmyOfWon]

There's gonna be a lot of "LOS," "AOE," and "CBT" in the following post. If you don't know those acronyms or need a refresher:

Quote

LOS: Line Of Sight. The line through which you spot your oppenent.

AOE: Area Of Effect. The area around a Mech using ECM.

CBT: Classic BattleTech. Tabletop.

I'm torn about the ECM, I really am. On one hand the changes it has forced into the game has made team cohesion, teamwork, and strategy leaps and bounds better than it has been previously.

That said, the ECM is a stupidly OP piece of hardware. As PGI constantly states they want to stick to tabletop as much as possible (Yes, I know there needs to be tweaks to get it from chance-based, turn-based strategy into real-time, skill-based gameplay) Here's what the ECM does in CBT according to the Battletech Total Warfare rule book:

A Noteworthy Discrepancy Between CBT and MWO implementation said:

*Note: ECM in CBT affects everything with LOS through ECM AOE, opposed to MWO where units are affected themselves if they are within the AOE. For Example: If one enemy unit has ECM equipped and another enemy is on the opposite side of the ECM equipped enemy, but outside the ECM AOE, you can still target the second enemy through the ECM AOE of the first with all of the effects listed below, as if the first ECM equipped enemy does not exist. In CBT, you would treat the second enemy as if within the AOE of the ECM.

Now, I agree with MWO's implementation where only units within the AOE are affected, opposed to units behind a LOS wall, but it is worth noting the discrepancy.

1) Nullifies Active Probe gains (e.g. cannot detect hidden units in CBT within ECM radius)

Edit: As another note, BAP does nothing in CBT but detect hidden units. There is no boost in lock-on range because in CBT the only "range" you have is tied to your weapon systems. You can fire anything at anyone, but your probabilities will be shot because of the effective range of your weapons.

2) Friendly units within ECM radius does not receive hit bonus from Artemis IV.

3) Cuts off C3 computer network, units are no longer able to share information between one-another if their LOS goes through the AOE of the ECM.

4) Narc beacons attached to friendly units do not provide

What ECM does NOT do:

1) Affect Targeting Devices such as TAG

2) Targeting Computers, even LOS through AOE is not affected by ECM. In CBT you can target and fire LRMs (and Artemis LRMs for that matter, just without the Artemis hit bonus) directly at the enemy unit carrying ECM. This is not possible in MWO.

;tldr ECM is OP but allows for better overall teamwork (at the detriment of LRM support)

Edited by ArmyOfWon, 05 December 2012 - 12:32 PM.

[steelblueskies]

Vasces Diablo, on 05 December 2012 - 11:15 AM, said:

As an LRM CAT pilot, I'm still a little iffy on how ECM works.

I'm totally cool with preventing the broadcasting of an ECM bubbled mech. Thus preventing the rain of indirect fire.
I'm totally cool with preventing streak lock.

However, if I can physically see the enemy, I should be able to fire LRMs at them. Slower lock on is cool, less effective tracking is also fine. But a simple item that renders fire support mechs completely useless is a bit over powered (sorry, had to use that phrase).

At the very least I should be able to blind fire LRMs like SRMs.

you can blind fire lrms at target location under reticule.
however slow flight time, total lack of tracking, huge spread, and poor flight path(arc up and over or direct flight path) predictability make this a little rough.

also reticule not being on what it appears to be on causing herpaderp flight paths, and targeting a location under 180m means no missile does any damage even if actual flight t target is longer than 180m( this was true before as well with locks. if missiles fired when target was less than 180m no damage, even if they ran beyond 180 m by the time the missiles caught up to them. ditto in reverse as well).

[The Mecha Streisand]

I've seen VERY few LRMs in play since ECM. --nerf it

Direct fire weapons are generally unaffected. --leave it as is

Players now cannot rely on the red-box on the HUD to find a target at distance or in semi-concealed positions, and must actually SEE it to hit it. --leave it as is

Seems to completely trump Beagle. --nerf it


So far, I'm split on the matter. Someone on TeamSpeak last night made the comment that there's a big overreaction to ECM at the moment, and it'll likely eventually normalize once we get accustomed to playing with ECM in the game. I tend to agree. That implies, however, that at least for the time being we must leave it as is. So, my final vote?

DO NOT NERF NEXT PATCH. Give it a while for us to acclimate...

[Takeo]

Ok My two cents.

First: ECM is Working as it was designed in the TOT. Don't believe me click the link below.

http://www.sarna.net...uite#Game_Rules

Second: AS7-D-DC - is equiped with a Command Console. Not ECM the one that comez with ECM is the the S2 Model all the others are Post Blakest.

Third: Keep the ECM on the ECM Mechs in the TOT, the Commando & the Cicada don't have it. The Raven 3L & the Jenner JR7-K have it.

I like ECM, the only thing is I don't like it when you have 6 Ravens with ECM and Two Atlas' with ECM. they need to add either a limit to how many ECM Mechs you can have, or put a Mimimal Weight! Again that is my 2 cents

Edited by Takeo, 05 December 2012 - 11:34 AM.

[FallguySoldier]

Just from my experience as of late, ECM has cutoff any practical use for any weapon except lasers.

[The Mecha Streisand]

One other thing. It seems to me that you could make a really (at least from our user perspective) simple change to balance ECM down a little. Make it occupy a weapon hardpoint. It'll become a really interesting consideration when a mech has to give up one of its hardpoints in order to mount ECM at all. Honestly, you've made Ravens and Cicadas relevant again. But you also kinda inadvertently buffed the ATLAS D-DC, and the ATLAS never needed a buff. Just a thought...

Also, maybe add a bit of heat when ECM is in operation? Another consideration...

Edited by 30plusRAbbi, 05 December 2012 - 11:37 AM.

[Vasces Diablo]

Snib, on 05 December 2012 - 11:18 AM, said:

The hypocrisy in this is golden.

So is your selective editing when quoting my statement. You left out that I'm willing to give up the major advantage of LRMs...indirect fire.

For the record, I also think you should be able to dumb fire streaks.

[gbrown]

vettie, on 05 December 2012 - 10:45 AM, said:

Cutter nailed it.

In the previous versions of MWO ECM did not eliminate the ability to lock on it just made it more difficult, especially at distance, but once the target got within a certain range I could lock on and I could always use line of sight weapons.

That said, this is just like the complaints about LRMs and Gause-Cats. We will come up with tactics to deal with ECM just like we did with the others. Then in a month or so something else will come out, probably BAP, and the people who built their strategies around ECM will be as unhappy as the people who built theirs around LRMs. We will persevere.

[Franck991]

The problem, to me, is that it is evenly powerful in (way) too many occasions, with (way) too little drawbacks, making it something unavoidable no matter the situation/map/strategy, or else.

Every little bits of its functions are adorable, including forcing me to seek mechs that aren't actually surrounded by an obvious red marker at close range but as it is, it looks like an OP blockbuster bending every other strategies and tactics to its own rules, instead of adding role-related and situation-dependent tactics and strategies.

Conclusion: its influence is too wide but the concept is gold.

Edited by Franck991, 05 December 2012 - 11:43 AM.

[ActionFigure]

I agree ECM is a game changer, to a different game that is...lol
Missile lock has been the primary defense of Assualt and Heavy against Lights without it they are unplayable. Try assualt vs light in a close range fight... You simply dont turn fast enough to have your reticle on the light mech.
Missle lock was an essential experience in MW without it, its not MW.
This game is a simulation game therefore it should mimic the original game rules as close as possible, its not meant to be a fair (balanced) game. If it was everyone would be forced to play the same mech with the same loadout.

Edited by ActionFigure, 05 December 2012 - 11:52 AM.

[The Mecha Streisand]

Vasces Diablo, on 05 December 2012 - 11:39 AM, said:

For the record, I also think you should be able to dumb fire streaks.

<3

[dcwoods]

I own three modified Cats. . And have changed to the two Cats that have the most hard points for energy and ballistic weapons and modified these to be the best mix for dealing with ECM's in the several games I was in the bunching is very prevalent. in fact I reminds me of tow packs of Jackals fighting. at this point many get involved and stray out of the ECM and that when I use the missiles. for those that are staying close it is like firing at fish iin a barrel. It is true you may not hit the one you aimed for with you laser, or PPC, or AC but you do hit. I could not help but laugh at those that were getting friendly fire damage because they were so closely group.
[color="#000000"]I like what ECM has done to the game. I believe they are well balanced. The tactics will change in time as they do in the real world of new technology in warfare. I hope we get to the point that we are able to ***** mission location so we have some Idea as the a possible load out for each Mech on the team[/color]
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