2028 replies to this topic

[Snuglninja]

My ECM beats your ECM that is the only team work going on now. Lrm or streaks were never op in a team match of 8vs8. ECM is. Name one reason not to pilot a ECM variant. Not saying you can't beat a team with ECM with good team work. One eccm should be able to shut down all ecm then 1 or 2 is all you need. Or a mechanic where the device is activated for a duration of time then has a cooling down period.

[Rumrunner2]

actual situation for me:
50% of the team are one of the 4 ECM Mechs. The other 40 Mechs are not seen often since ecm is online. So from 44 Mechs now mostly the same 4 Mechs were chosen, bad thing. Game turned into a ECM battle.

Most used vision mode is now heatmode, very nice. Why the performancehungry graphic when heatmode ist best way to deal with ECM?

BAP is pretty useless now, most players removed from there mechs.

After all, ECM in actual shape is not good for the game.

My proposals:
Distance to aquire a cloaked target should be 50% instead only 25% of normal range. And BAP (25%) and sensormodule (15%) should boost the range to keep some sence of this things.

[WardenWolf]

Stabbitha, on 04 December 2012 - 02:22 PM, said:

You're too used to fighting from the backlines. Even before ECM, my D-DC lives about 100m behind the frontline mechs. 3xLRM15 with artemis + 2 LPL's. Oh, some jenner is trollolololing one of your front line mechs, light him up and put 45 in him. Hey, someone spotted an awesome coming out from behind a rock at 400, LRM! Yes, you take more damage but you also deal more (rather than throwing away tonnes of ammo on people who let you get lock then duck).

Just because you can shoot at 900m (and give the target about 10 seconds of warning to find a rock to hide behind) doesn't mean you should.

I was operating about 200-300m behind the 'lines', so to speak, and couldn't get a lock on things that I could see 300m in front of me, full view, nothing blocking... because of ECM. That is too far out for me to use my own ECM as a counter (closing to the range required for that would make LRMs worthless).

Now I have a second D-DC that I purchased yesterday after the patch, to play around with. I put my old standby weapons (2x ERPPC and Gauss) in it, with a max-speed engine (XL 360) and ECM, BAP, and the various targeting related modules. This mech did really well last night when running in a group of 3 with some guys from DWAR. 4-5 games, all wins, only died once.

It was fun enough, to be sure, but it just feels like ECM has changed the nature and dynamic of the game too much. Almost no LRMs now, much less direct fire from long range. It is really an up-close, fast moving, brawler game now... which is okay for many, but some people will be turned off because many of the playstyles that are iconic parts of Battletech / Mechwarrior no longer work.

[Dexxtaa]

While overall, I think ECM is a great addition and a step forward, I think balancing ECM on pug battles would be nice (please read the whole post before tearing me a new one).

I've dropped a couple times over the course of the morning and found myself part of a couple teams with no form of ECM. Unfortunately, every time I dropped with a team that had no ECM, I had the poor luck to notice the other team had a one or more mechs fielding the countermeasures.

Needless to say, we got roflstomped by the ECM guys, since they had a massive informational advantage. At one point, most of my teammates were actually using the team-chat (remember, we're pugging here), but we still got annihilated because we just couldn't see what we were shooting at. We'd have to call out chassis variants and whatnot, which more often than not, got us killed because of the time taken to communicate over text.

I'm not asking for a SUPER ECM TEAM BALANCE mechanic, but I think more like a "do any members of team A have ECM? Do any members of team B have ECM?" If both yes, then drop. If not, prevent a drop until someone joins the queue with ECM equipped. And if absolutely no one else has ECM equipped in the queue at the time, then just force the drop. I imagine it would lead to longer drop loading times, but honestly, I think more even matches would be desirable over 2 more seconds of waiting per person.

Bear in mind that it doesn't (or shouldn't) matter if team A happens to have 6 ECM mechs and poor baby team B has 1 ECM capable mech. The fact is that both teams have the chances of cloaking or blocking the other team, which gives the underdog a spitting chance. It's raelly more of a "ECM yes/no" mechanic. I'm sure it's possible, since drops are balanced by tonnage, I'm thinking the same logic can be applied to a more rudimentary level (but I'm not much of a coder, so I have no authority in that statement).The difference will still create a fighting chance for the underdog without making "cookie cutter" strategies (ie We know they have 2 ECM mechs because we have 2 ECM mechs).

That said, I want to emphasize that I'm speaking for the individual pilots here who don't drop with a regular team. I personally drop with a at least 3 other points at a time during the evening, but sometimes, I just like listening to music and not having my srspants on.

Edited by Dexxtaa, 05 December 2012 - 12:02 PM.

[Eskorakas]

I believe ECM is a little strong at the moment. My idea how to make it less powerful for the game would be to... cloak works out to about 300 or 400 meters then mechs are targetable if you have LOS within that distance. Missle lock on for these mechs under cloak would be greatly increased. After every missle salvo (lock-on) at a cloaked mech requires a re-lock on of the missles per mech firing missles. This would help balance and prevent missle showers, due to the lock-on time being greatly increased. TAG effects would eliminate or reduce the required lock-on time and or re-lock etc. Just a thought. Thanks

[Semper Fi]

I agree with anyone that says, 1 ECCM, counters 1 - 8 ECMs. That is the key to balance, so those that say 2 is all you need, true two lances. I think that is the missing part here. Then you can do a suicide mech in the middle of them ECCM the blob, and then shoot the crap out of them with missiles. Promise you those blobs will break quick. However this strategy is not viable because they have 8 Atlas with 8 ECM. So, there you go my 2 cents.

[Kyrs]

I have to agree with CutterWolf with this one (for once handbook rules seems they could be applied, online wiki was off target).

P.S. I find it very strange that my targeting computer cannot find the yellow red spot in the heat mode. If I can see it on the screen so should the computer. Heat seeking missile are very common, don't see why they would disappear in 1000 years unless you tell me there some heat masking armor. (which does already exist, but that the case why do see target in heat mode)

If my memory serve me correctly the Comanche pilot have to mark manually the heat signature with peeper dot be able to launch hellfire missile. Which you add lots of depth to the game having to switch to heat mode manually mark heat signature.

Edited by Kyrs, 05 December 2012 - 12:07 PM.

[Dexxtaa]

Kyrs, on 05 December 2012 - 12:07 PM, said:

If my memory serve me correctly the Comanche pilot have to mark manually the heat signature with peeper dot be able to launch hellfire missile. Which you add lots of depth to the game having to switch to heat mode manually mark heat signature.

Cue multi keyboard users: one to pilot the mech, one to mess with all the other stuff in the cockpit. If that happens, I'll be sure to get my roommate to sit behind me and work the sensor suite, like Star Wars.

[DaffyGKH]

>Game is perfect.
>ECM gets implemented.
>Game unplayable.

ECM should only benefit the mech equipping it - it's currently way to easy to abuse.

[Dukarriope]

There's something in particular that bugs me about ECM right now.

Thanks to ECM, we now have gigantic dozens-of-tons, dozens-of-meters-tall stompy robots hiding behind trees.

[Jakob Knight]

Takeo, on 05 December 2012 - 11:32 AM, said:

Ok My two cents.

First: ECM is Working as it was designed in the TOT. Don't believe me click the link below.

http://www.sarna.net...uite#Game_Rules

Incorrect.

Guardian ECM, 1.5 tons, 2 crits, worked against Artemis IV, TAG, NARC, and C3 systems -only-. It had no other effect.

Angel ECM, a larger, heavier system that came out a decade after Guardian, disabled Streaks, but other than a slightly larger area was identical in all other ways.

Null Signature Systems, a system that used Guardian ECM as part of it, provided a targeting stealth ability that cut down on detection at the price of the unit using it having to shut down its heat sinks (producing a large amount of extra heat while the system was active) and preventing most weapons fire. This stealth system required modifications to the 'mechs armor, and did not extend to any other unit but the mounting mech. The Null System was not re-introduced until about 15-20 years after Guardian ECM.

The ECM system put into MWO is supposed to be Guardian ECM, yet it combines all of the above and does even more, without any penalties beyond that of basic Guardian ECM.

So, no. Guardian ECM is -not- working as it was designed in the TT, nor as any type of equipment ever put into the TT rules. It is far and above any of that.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 05 December 2012 - 12:35 PM.

[Schlaung]

Definitely not. ECM is the best thing that's happened to this game in months. This is a team game and ECM can be easily countered if you play it as such.

[Lambulance]

ECM needs a duration and a cooldown.

[Mad Elf]

Takeo, on 05 December 2012 - 11:32 AM, said:

Ok My two cents.

First: ECM is Working as it was designed in the TOT. Don't believe me click the link below.

http://www.sarna.net...uite#Game_Rules

Amazing, it'd OP on the tabletop as well if it wasn't for its enormous BV...

[K Storm]

Xeren KelDar, on 04 December 2012 - 01:06 PM, said:

As it stands right now ECM is over tweaked. I think the core concept is pretty good, but just overtuned right now. One thing that could help counter it for LRMs at least is NARC and maybe tune NARC duration to permanent, but susceptable to damage. For instance it would never go off cooldown, but could get destroyed by the LRMs you just landed on the mech.

With just assault mode there seems to be even more of a shift in dynamic to cap the base, only now its both teams trying to be ninjas and do it while under an ECM bubble. This issue may get resolved in the future with CW, but right now seems to really detract from the game as it is negating the big stompy mech battles.

Finally, these may be bugged issues or not, but it seems ECM is blocking targetting for me even while I maintain LoS to target. If bugged or intended I think it needs to be looked into. This has happened to me at less than 90m (ECM bubble), 200m, and out to 600-800 all while I could plainy see the target. Blocking the lockable weapons (SSRM) seems to be the intent and I'm ok with that, but totally negating the red box which really does nothing to direct fire weapons seems excessive. One you lose LoS, I'd be ok with the ninja raven dropping off targetting/radar/etc.

To summarize:

Core Concept pretty good and promises lots of potential

Execution is overtweaked and leads to gameplay issues making it a negative addition to the current system in its current state (both game's state and ECM's)

I like the idea of NARC being permanent or at least much much longer duration, and that it should allow the affected ECM'd mech to be targeted normally.

[Jakob Knight]

ECM needs far more than a nerf. A nerf is just a reduction in effect, when ECM must receive a removal of effects before it can be in any way called balanced.

[Shiro Kell]

I have only managed to play a few matches with ECM involved so far and so my opinion is extremely limited by lack of experience. All in all I think its great but some small adjustments need to be made IMO, in order to 'trim the flak' from the new and very good item. IMO ECM should not completely disable LRMs and Streaks when enemies are within its 'bubble'. I like the increased lock on time when trying to target and ECM equipped unit at long range but I think that at close range the complete loss of a major weapon system is slightly unbalanced, especially in PUGs where you usually need to rely on a random to counter for you. Two possible suggestions would be an extreme increase in lock-on time when within the bubble, say 200-300% lock-on time, or possibly allowing streaks to lock but then negating the lock-on effect by having them fire like normal SRMs, or even a combination of those two effects.

Now before people start flaming me for QQing etc, I would also like to state that my entire arguement here may be null and void once ECM is available on more chassis, which will change the battlefield all over again. Also worth mentioning here that I don't run a streak cat and only one of my mechs is equipped with LRMs so this opinion comes from a 3rd person perspective, I guess you could say, and as I stated at the beginning of this post, I really only believe that small adjustments are needed to make ECM 'perfectly' balanced. So far it is the best new addition to the game environment and I congratulate the devs on their approach, just a little polish would finish the job.

[WardenWolf]

K Storm, on 05 December 2012 - 12:42 PM, said:

I like the idea of NARC being permanent or at least much much longer duration, and that it should allow the affected ECM'd mech to be targeted normally.

Wasn't NARC blocking one of the few things ECM actually did in TT? And it makes sense too - it is blocking the RF signature the NARC is trying to send out. I do thing NARC should be near-permanent (2 minutes or until the mech part it is attached to is destroyed, IMHO) but I would rather see ECM nerfed in other ways, not this.

[Jakob Knight]

Schlaung, on 05 December 2012 - 12:31 PM, said:

Definitely not. ECM is the best thing that's happened to this game in months. This is a team game and ECM can be easily countered if you play it as such.

Incorrect.

This is a PUG game, with every player out for themselves. That is the game the Devs have made, and ECM is the final proof that this is what they intend. There is no means in the game to connect to other players to form groups, and no way to communicate if you did to set up your group prior to dropping. Both of these are hard and undeniable proof that this game is anti-team, and desired to be so by the Dev team.

The lengths they have gone to to remove the only team-based weapon in the game (LRMs) is also proof how much the Dev team is determined to not have teams in their game.

Edited by Jakob Knight, 05 December 2012 - 12:55 PM.

[Shiro Kell]

Jakob Knight, on 05 December 2012 - 12:19 PM, said:

Incorrect.

Guardian ECM, 1.5 tons, 2 crits, worked against Artemis IV, TAG, NARC, and C3 systems -only-. It had no other effect.

Angel ECM, a larger, heavier system that came out a decade after Guardian, disabled Streaks, but other than a slightly larger area was identical in all other ways.

Null Signature Systems, a system that used Guardian ECM as part of it, provided a targeting stealth ability that cut down on detection at the price of the unit using it having to shut down its heat sinks (producing a large amount of extra heat while the system was active) and preventing most weapons fire. This stealth system required modifications to the 'mechs armor, and did not extend to any other unit but the mounting mech. The Null System was not re-introduced until about 15-20 years after Guardian ECM.

The ECM system put into MWO is supposed to be Guardian ECM, yet it combines all of the above and does even more, without any penalties beyond that of basic Guardian ECM.

So, no. Guardian ECM is -not- working as it was designed in the TT, nor as any type of equipment ever put into the TT rules. It is far and above any of that.

Thankyou mate I was going to point this out also but nice work...glad I checked back a little first.