2028 replies to this topic

[Elddric]

Pataine, on 05 December 2012 - 02:04 PM, said:

Finally gonna get in on this topic.

The Guardian Ecm suite nullifies the affects an enemy Beagel Active Probe (though it would notice it is being jammed) Artemis fire control systems, Narc missle beacon or C3 Computer when that unit is WITH-IN 6 hexes (or 180 meters) of a Gaurdian equiped UNIT. Friendly sysems are not affect by the unit.
A Guardian nullifies these systems even when not directed at the Guardian equiped UNIT. It also works when the path of the enemy system pass with 6 hexes (180 meters) of the Guardian.

This is from the BatteTechCompendium p. 120. It says nothing about an area affect protecting mulitple targets it is only supposed to work on the Mech it is equiped on and only out to 180 meters. It says nothing about long range sensors not working, LRM's not getting a lock on or Streaks not being able to lock. Streaks even within the 6 hexes (180 meter) are supposed to fire as normal SRM'sThis is for short range close quarters combat.

From the Tactical Handbook p63 as follows - Angel Ecm Suite does all the above and affects Streaks but only if they are with the before mention 6 hexs (180 meters).

Change it to how it is supposed to work on that mech only and only out to 180 meters.

Where does it say it doesn't cover friendlies within that 6 hexes. You Did understand what you posted right?

Specifically.... A Guardian nullifies these systems even when not directed at the Guardian equiped UNIT. It also works when the path of the enemy system pass with 6 hexes (180 meters) of the Guardian.....

this says that it covers everything within the 6 hexes.

[Mad Dog MKII]

So after my games today here is my opinion:

Mechwarrior Online is about as much fun as having cancer now.

I only run lights and some mechs you have to take now to be effective, and everything else can sit in the hanger. Wins are easy, and defeats seem inevitable when you start taking losses. Games seem to end in about 4-5mins with a landslide either way.

I am personally not enjoying it, and I will be waiting to see if the issue with ECM is fixed before I start playing again.

[Dormax]

I hate to be a complainer, mostly because the difference between a good game and a bad one IMO is complexity. The more complex and interesting a game is, the more I'm going to like it. So with that in mind, I love the idea of adding ECM.

When I first read that they were coming, I dragged out my old TT books and poked around the 'Net. "Hmm... Interesting but not game breaking. As they are now, though, it's not impossible to beat them, but it's pretty darn hard.Even if they left ECM with a heck of a lot more than TT rules allow, but took it away from the atlas, the strategy would be that much better. These ECM carrying atlases are really (REALLY) hard to beat.

I pilot awsomes, jenners, phracts, and an occasional atlas or hunchie. I have no interest in piloting a raven or cicada at the moment, so essentially, I'm invested into considerably less useful mechs.

The disruption of SSRMs kinda sux, too, when the commando can streak my jenner but I can't streak back. Sux, but not completely undoable.

I think the other game breaker, as some have pointed out, is not that it makes the "bad guys" invisible to sensors (though that's tough enough), the problem is that it also makes friendlies invisible. That means a sniper or medium range mech trying to support is brawler counterpart has no way of knowing which mech to shoot and which will cost him c-bills to friendly fire. In other words, it breaks the role warfare that the devs touted as all-important to the game (and I agree with them on that note).

Personal opinion on the fix? At a minimum, take ECM away from the Atlas and allow friendlies to be identified as they are without ECM. Even if the devs decide to leave all of the other non-cannon advantages, those at least would help mitigate the power of ECM by letting line-of-sight direct fire users figure out which is the right target and also force EMCs into smaller and more fragile mechs (so they have to be more careful while being stealthy).

[Pr0of]

Just played a couple more games today...wow.
If PGI's idea of "Role Warfare" is at least 6 people per team filling the electronic warfare role, mission accomplished.
No, but seriously, the direct counter to ECM cannot be MORE ECM. I don't care what the rules of TT are; for a practical video game to work and be fun, there needs to be a rock, paper, scissors effect. At the moment what we see are a whole bunch of people running around with paper (ECM), debilitating rocks (LRM) without any scissors to stop them. In fact, the only defense against said paper is to bring MORE FLIPPIN' PAPER. How does that even begin to make sense for designers who are trying to create a, (and I say it again) "Role Warfare" game?

And for the record, this is coming from someone who plays exclusively lights (commando and raven(since they were the ones no one played))...I HATE Streak Cats and LRM boats of all sizes as I think they take little skill to lock on and fire etc, but I can see clear as day how PGI's balance algorithm is off, it's unsettling.

Edited by Pr0of, 05 December 2012 - 02:56 PM.

[Kibble]

I smell *sniff sniff* a troll.....or a Streak Cat user................

[Ginga121]

- The ECM is only available to 3 mechs.
- It is EASY to counter using either another ECM or a TAG. (I pilot a Raven with both)
- MORE than 3 mechs can use TAGs so no excuses there.

If your teams ECM pilots are so concerned about their own safety that they don't turn their ECM's to 'counter mode' then that is a simple breakdown in teamwork. Yes this is a PUG game most of the time for a lot of players but I have NEVER seen a team that uses no teamwork win any game.

I use my Raven as a support mech. I shield friendlies with the ECM, TAG enemy ECM mechs for LRMers to shoot and if needs be, I switch my ECM to 'Counter mode' and personally hunt down their ECM mechs. That is how you beat it. It has never failed me yet...

Edited by Ginga121, 05 December 2012 - 02:44 PM.

[Zephyre]

Greetings Ladies and Otherwise,

First off, PGI. Thank you so very much. ECM and its implimentation and counters brought a much needed depth to our favorite game.

To all those who think ECM is over powered and broken. Its not. You just haven't figured out how to counter it correctly.

Yeah that's right I've already figured out the relationship between tag, ecm, and counter ecm. Experiment, learn. There is nothing sexier than being behind enemy lines and providing advanced targeting information for my LRM buddies. And no one expects it when they get hammered by a hailstorm of LRM fire.

Again, Thank you, Devs! You've made my week.

~Zephyre

P.S. If you see Zephyre on the opposite team, be afraid. If you see it on your team, be thankful.

[Jim de Griz]

senaiboy, on 05 December 2012 - 02:25 PM, said:

I've been in Beta for a couple months now so I'm not a newbie anymore, and I love what the ECM brings to the battlefield, certainly add a new side to the battle. But it needs a major tweaking.

The targeting-disable and radar-disable bubble are ridiculous. As above, I've been in matches where both sides are brawling blind with ECMs on both sides - we can't see who's around us, we can't see which target to concentrate on.

BAP has been rendered useless and the ECM hides the whole group making scouting ineffective without direct communication (chat or teamspeak). Unfortunately PUGs don't use TS and one can't type and move at the same time.

And the ECM Commando with 3 SSRMs will win against any non-ECM light mechs, as lasers have lower DPS than SSRMs.

Seriously, look into the suggestions in this thread, there are some great ones.

Quoted for the Truth

The lack of communication is my main problem. I don't mind losing the LRMs, I don't mind losing the SSRMs. I hate having to report every contact manualy and having no idea what my team mates know unless they can spare the time to type a warning.

I'm bored of getting ambushed by a lance of mechs my team mates saw coming, but had no way of letting me know about. The mini map was as much about communicating information between team mates as anything else. Now its kinda useless.

Jim de Griz

[Zephyre]

DaffyGKH, on 05 December 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

>Game is perfect.
>ECM gets implemented.
>Game unplayable.

ECM should only benefit the mech equipping it - it's currently way to easy to abuse.

You are being foolish my friend. There are several ways to counter ECM. No the counters don't show up often in pick up groups because no one it seems has figured out how to counter it.

HINT: I can think of at least 3 counters. Enjoy figuring it out!

[Scratx]

Dexxtaa, on 05 December 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

While overall, I think ECM is a great addition and a step forward, I think balancing ECM on pug battles would be nice (please read the whole post before tearing me a new one).

I've dropped a couple times over the course of the morning and found myself part of a couple teams with no form of ECM. Unfortunately, every time I dropped with a team that had no ECM, I had the poor luck to notice the other team had a one or more mechs fielding the countermeasures.

Needless to say, we got roflstomped by the ECM guys, since they had a massive informational advantage. At one point, most of my teammates were actually using the team-chat (remember, we're pugging here), but we still got annihilated because we just couldn't see what we were shooting at. We'd have to call out chassis variants and whatnot, which more often than not, got us killed because of the time taken to communicate over text.

I'm not asking for a SUPER ECM TEAM BALANCE mechanic, but I think more like a "do any members of team A have ECM? Do any members of team B have ECM?" If both yes, then drop. If not, prevent a drop until someone joins the queue with ECM equipped. And if absolutely no one else has ECM equipped in the queue at the time, then just force the drop. I imagine it would lead to longer drop loading times, but honestly, I think more even matches would be desirable over 2 more seconds of waiting per person.

Bear in mind that it doesn't (or shouldn't) matter if team A happens to have 6 ECM mechs and poor baby team B has 1 ECM capable mech. The fact is that both teams have the chances of cloaking or blocking the other team, which gives the underdog a spitting chance. It's raelly more of a "ECM yes/no" mechanic. I'm sure it's possible, since drops are balanced by tonnage, I'm thinking the same logic can be applied to a more rudimentary level (but I'm not much of a coder, so I have no authority in that statement).The difference will still create a fighting chance for the underdog without making "cookie cutter" strategies (ie We know they have 2 ECM mechs because we have 2 ECM mechs).

That said, I want to emphasize that I'm speaking for the individual pilots here who don't drop with a regular team. I personally drop with a at least 3 other points at a time during the evening, but sometimes, I just like listening to music and not having my srspants on.

Thanks for your POV. Shows just how much of a disadvantage it is to lack ECMs when the opposing team has one or more. For theoretically optional gear it seems to be a bit too important...

Axcend, on 05 December 2012 - 01:29 PM, said:

Played a few matches since the ECM was added. It is a complete game changer. It bricks every single mech that uses missiles since I have yet to find a game that doesn't have 3+ people without an ECM. On that note, you might as well remove Jenners from the game since they are useless now.

As much as I love huddling around teammates with my 300XL engine, I now get to sell my mech and start all over for the 3rd time. Raven 3L is now the overpowered mech, so everyone buy one quick!

In order to balance the ECM, I HIGHLY recommend that you give the capability to every single mech. Merely because of how ridiculously powerful it can be. ECM vs non ECM = non ECM loses EVERY SINGLE TIME.

SELL MISSILES, BUY LASERS QUICK!

Well, if literally every mech needs ECM then I have a more radical suggestion.

Send ECM back to the drawing board. Take it away from everyone and reimplement it in a way that isn't so ridiculously and obviously OP.

I don't see this happening, of course, but even a few quick numerical adjustments to the current impl' would greatly improve the situation as I see it.

HarmAssassin, on 05 December 2012 - 01:55 PM, said:

Anyone that has spent any time in these forums, knows that since the previous patch I've been pretty vocal in saying that LRMs and SSRMs were a bit OP... so keep that in mind as you read this:

I like having ECMs in the game, but at the moment I do believe they need a downward tweak. I have two suggestions on how to do this, either:

1. Reduce the diameter of the protective bubble from 180m to let's say... 90m.

or

2. Keep the range 180m, but instead of totally preventing weapon locks, have it instead increase the miss chance of each individual missile (or group). So that if without ECM 80% hit, with ECM perhaps 40% hit. Or something along those lines.

Another option may be to have the effects scale with range. At the outer edge of the bubble, the effects are less than if the ECM is 2m away.

I LOVE ECMs, I just think that as is they do what they do just a little too well.

And keep in mind this is coming from a guy who spend the last week railing against LRMs/SSRMs...

Just saying...

Glad to hear an LRM detractor (however much or little he was) realise just how much ECM cripples that particular weapon system. (Streaks get it even worse in some ways)

Dormax, on 05 December 2012 - 02:29 PM, said:

I hate to be a complainer, mostly because the difference between a good game and a bad one IMO is complexity. The more complex and interesting a game is, the more I'm going to like it. So with that in mind, I love the idea of adding ECM.

When I first read that they were coming, I dragged out my old TT books and poked around the 'Net. "Hmm... Interesting but not game breaking. As they are now, though, it's not impossible to beat them, but it's pretty darn hard.Even if they left ECM with a heck of a lot more than TT rules allow, but took it away from the atlas, the strategy would be that much better. These ECM carrying atlases are really (REALLY) hard to beat.

I pilot awsomes, jenners, phracts, and an occasional atlas or hunchie. I have no interest in piloting a raven or cicada at the moment, so essentially, I'm invested into considerably less useful mechs.

The disruption of SSRMs kinda sux, too, when the commando can streak my jenner but I can't streak back. Sux, but not completely undoable.

I think the other game breaker, as some have pointed out, is not that it makes the "bad guys" invisible to sensors (though that's tough enough), the problem is that it also makes friendlies invisible. That means a sniper or medium range mech trying to support is brawler counterpart has no way of knowing which mech to shoot and which will cost him c-bills to friendly fire. In other words, it breaks the role warfare that the devs touted as all-important to the game (and I agree with them on that note).

Personal opinion on the fix? At a minimum, take ECM away from the Atlas and allow friendlies to be identified as they are without ECM. Even if the devs decide to leave all of the other non-cannon advantages, those at least would help mitigate the power of ECM by letting line-of-sight direct fire users figure out which is the right target and also force EMCs into smaller and more fragile mechs (so they have to be more careful while being stealthy).

Yeah, the aspect of being unable to tell who's a friendly or not when they're within the jamming bubble is a major problem. Come on, we do not have identifying markings painted on our mechs to differentiate between teams, we simply cannot tell who's a friendly or enemy mech with Eyeball Mk1 alone. We can only guesstimate based on how hard they are apparently trying to KILL us.

If we're going to have people in jamming field be blotted out entirely, then at least please give each team a distinct decal slapped on multiple panels on the mechs so we don't need C3 network info relays to tell us who's who.

[Trucker]

I like the ECM and would prefer it not to change. It adds to the game and requires pilots to think alot more before they act rather than just run in circles spamming a lock-on weapon.

SSRMs? The lock on is still there just takes longer to get lock, ergo requires more tactical thinking and skill from pilot. LRMs? can still support by team work and TAG of ECM mech...hey wasn't we using TAG before we had artemies? Maybe we should start using it again? Also, you can dumb fire LRMs, it's very difficult to hit and will be a waste if not done at the right time, but it's possible.....i've managed it.

I can't say i've experienced the issue of 'whoever has the more ECMs wins' because I have been in matches where my team has had no ECM and won and vice versa. Sure ECM makes target acquisition and information difficult to get but then thermal vision becomes more important for spotting distant targets and it makes you concentrate more on the mech in front of you to judge the damaged parts. It's also not difficult to distinguish friendly from enemy because of you have line of sight they will show up as a blue pip not red. For me the ECM in it's current state encourages you to use all tools at your disposal rather than just aim at the red squire and fire when you get a red circle.

I like that it encourages people to group together and lend support in focusing individual mechs, as isn't this what we are supposed to do in a team game?

The only problem I have with ECM is that it's range is too big for the maps, but then I think that the maps are way too small for a mechwarrior title anyway.

[chiXnhawk]

PGI doesn't want a team work game. Why would pugging be so well protected? The groups constantly changed and promisses broken about when they are giving back what they just took away to make money. There are no features put in to help with "Team work". They are trying to add in features that were always in other mech games with a flair of their own. Thats why ECM changed. Thats why BAP is not the rock to ECM's scissors. Narc is **** and is not even close to what it was in every other mech warrior game. Tag is in no way the counter to ECM. The only thing that works in ECM counter. Now they made it so every battle field is poulted with the same mechs. The team work needed for LRM's is gone as they are now irrelavant. Gauss is on life support. This game caters to those who cry. Period. This game had so much promise when it was in closed beta and it looked like PGI listened to game issues. Now to me it looks like they are trying to take MW and change it to something they made their own from names and things the other games built. Every patch since Open Beta came with a hot fix and major breaks in weapons that theres no way they test because equipping them and using them once would show they broke them (LRM's , UAC's , SSRM's , AC 2's) . The best net code build they made was the last one before open beta.

[Eleshod]

Tag+pile the ECM mech removes the enemy teams valuable resource, simple as that.

[Packetl0ss]

Thank you so much for adding ECM. I can't tell you how wonderful it felt to not get instantly fragged by streaks as a light mech .

[GazT4R]

Trucker, on 05 December 2012 - 02:53 PM, said:

I can't say i've experienced the issue of 'whoever has the more ECMs wins' because I have been in matches where my team has had no ECM and won and vice versa. Sure ECM makes target acquisition and information difficult to get but then thermal vision becomes more important for spotting distant targets and it makes you concentrate more on the mech in front of you to judge the damaged parts. It's also not difficult to distinguish friendly from enemy because of you have line of sight they will show up as a blue pip not red. For me the ECM in it's current state encourages you to use all tools at your disposal rather than just aim at the red squire and fire when you get a red circle.

I like that it encourages people to group together and lend support in focusing individual mechs, as isn't this what we are supposed to do in a team game?

The only problem I have with ECM is that it's range is too big for the maps, but then I think that the maps are way too small for a mechwarrior title anyway.

Have to agree there on all counts.
I've dropped in Pugging tonight and at no point did the ECM dominate to such an extent it was unwinnable simply due to ECM.
Using cover is essential and Mk.1 eyeball for spotting. You dont need a targetting marker to shoot at it. Played several games where the other team had 1 or more ECM's and they still got soundly beaten by the better team. Equally I played my ECM Raven and we got beaten by the better team.
It required thought and tactics but the ECM is not the be all and end all.

[Ginga121]

TAG's counter ECM's 100% if you are doing it properly.

Tagging between 185m-450m will always counter that mechs ECM coverage and make it completely vulnerable to missile fire.

Tagging within 180m will result in the TAG not working properly... If you can't stay 185m or further away you get a Light mech with an ECM to switch to counter mode and run into range of the enemy ECM and then your team nukes the ECM mech. Problem solved.

I have a TAG and an ECM on my Raven 3L. There isn't a single ECM mech I haven't managed to overcome as long as my team is backing me up (which thankfully they always have been so far)

Edited by Ginga121, 05 December 2012 - 03:16 PM.

[Ginga121]

It is the responsibility of any mech pilot using an ECM to both shield their team AND counter the enemy ECM's either with counter mode or a TAG.
It's the responsibility of the team to provide the support to these mechs as they do so. If a friendly mech is countering an enemy ECM and no one is shooting that mech then the team deserves to lose. Countering an ECM is NOT a 1 man job.

Even if you are Pugging it is still a game that NEEDS teamwork

If your ECM pilots are not using 'counter mode' or Tags to negate the effect of enemy ECM's then it is their fault if you get dominated because of enemy ECM coverage.

Edited by Ginga121, 05 December 2012 - 03:21 PM.

[David Decoster]

Ahhhhh... The sweet tears of cheesy streakboat users. So refreshing.

[Nyx]

ECM is so damn retardedly OP right now. Way to go screwing up the entire game.

ECM is SUPPOSED to increase missle lock time, NOT NULLIFY IT.

ECM is SUPPOSED to DECREASE detection range, NOT MAKE THEM NINJAS.

ECM is SUPPOSED to apply to ONLY to the unit carrying it, NOT blanket in an area around them.

Oh, and ECM is supposed to nullify artillary strikes, since this isnt implimented we dont have issues with this.

The only damn thing you got right is ECM nullifying another ECM.

[ZliDiabetichar]

lol, it took some time to read 26 pages
anw, i think there has been a misunderstanding on how ecm should effect the battlefield. The current effect is leading to a drastic change of tactics, but just in one direction: Zerging

Spoiler

What i see is, 5 as/heavy/med mechs going in one way, 3 lights going another way. All the time. Both groups have ecm. You can't see them on the map, you can't select them as targets, you can't position yourself in the battlefield so that you minimize incoming damage. Now its all about speed and zerging. Its not making the game better.

AntiLock mode should, IMO, disrupt the efficiency of guidance system by disrupting the flow of data that is consistently needed to guide LRM or SSRM. That would increase the time needed for the lock or give a random chance for LRM or SSRM to miss or break the lock sequence or lock in general .
This should work only for 2 (more) mechs in 180m radius of the carrier. Where the highest chance of disrupting the lock has the carrier, and the chance is lower for the non-carriers depending on the size of the mech and distance of the carrier.

Cloak mode should make the carrier and 2 other mechs within 180m range invisible to the enemy if outside of 450m range of the enemy mech. If you want to complicate you life, add that the range (start 450m) also varies on the size of the mech and the distance of the carrier of the ecm. Cloak mode should have AntiLock mode integrated into itself.

Spoiler

The cloak mode should be negated by visual sensors (targeting/map view - not guidance systems). That means, that every target in LoS (in reduced range) should be available on map and for target (if the info is shared between mechs). The info from the targets (weapons, damage) should come and be updated more slowly.

In your implementation, the is the inconsistency of info got from different views/sensors. This is the reason why everybody is using thermal vision (makes the targets easier to notice). Thermal should work with the computer with the normal and night vision to acquire targets (but at reduced range, lets say, just for test 400m).

Disrupt mode should provide 100% cancellation of enemy ecm within 180m, 50% at 270, 0% at 400m (for LRM targeting but non stackable);

Protect mode should provide 75% cancellation of enemy ecm disrupt mode at 120m, 50% at 200m, 25% at 280m,0% at 360m;
(protection for LRM targeting, something like strengthen the antiLock mode, but non stackable ).

That way you can see the changes on the battlefield via the map, but with considerable latency (needs to be in 400m in LoS of any friendly mech) making surprises nasty, but manageable.
That will also encourage long/mid range support mechs, but they will still have reduced efficiency.

Light mechs will have a better roll of sneaking/disrupting/finding the enemy, while big mechs (like the Atlas) will have its roll for protecting. The general info will be available to all, but the details will take more time.

Imo this would add more different builds, more tactics, more communication and more competitive play.

P.S. Am just giving ideas, because i feel that ecm can be a great asset to the battlefield without disrupting the balance or usefulness for its tonnage .

Edited by ZliDiabetichar, 05 December 2012 - 04:10 PM.