2028 replies to this topic

[Stingz]

Axcend, on 05 December 2012 - 05:19 PM, said:

after playing another 10-15 games since my last comment I want to point something out to everyone. ESPECIALLY to the devs:

The team with the most ECMs, wins. EVERY.SINGLE.TIME. If it logs the games with mechs and their eq, please do a check on it. I have never seen a team with less ECMs (except maybe by 1) than the other win. All you've done instead of balancing the game is make it easy to make a winning team.

Either everyone is going to start using lasers, or they are going to start using ECMs. ECMs > Lasers so expect EVERYONE to roll with ECMs now.

Make ECMs stop ALL lock on targets from any players, not just enemy ones. That would immediately stop all this ECM team stacking or everyone might just start using lasers. Then rockets would be pointless to even have in the game.


Yes, I am now saving for a Raven now because that's all you need on a team to win games.

I speak from experience, a bad team will still fail with ECM equipped. Not using focus-fire/covering each other will lead to a loss. Direct fire weapons don't need to rely on radar for damage.


If you want ECM that bad get a COM-2D, cheap, small, fast. Gets the most out of ECM since lock-on (LRM/Streaks) weapons are the #1 killer of good Commando pilots (not to mention the horrible armor).

Edited by Stingz, 05 December 2012 - 05:31 PM.

[Sable]

Well in my opinion... and in previous games ECM only effected the individual mech. Right now i'm seeing entire groups of mechs basically walk into your face before you can even target them. I think that is a little too strong when you can hide an entire assualt group with 1 mech.

It did seem to cut down quite a bit of the LRM dominance and its good to see varity. But i do think its silly that i can walk around a corner and oh look, 8 atlases alpha striking me from nowhere.

I like the idea of ECM on scouts so they can get in and spot/tag enemies that are trying to hide. ECM boosting survivability for light mechs is great... and even ECM on specific heavier mechs is interesting. But i think it should only apply its effects to individual mechs.

[R3B0]

Well, I think it is fine. How dare there exist a counter to LRMs and Streaks. How dare people have to pay attention to what is going on. Why dont we just make the game how you want it to be so you can be happy. Frankly, they will cater to you like they have in everything else because people who are happy say nothing, and haters will always hate.

[Shakespeare]

Needs adjustment in regards to its effect on other EW equipment, and perhaps the selection of chassis it can be used for (streak commando? really? Steiner scout?), But the numbers and effects? How about we don't nerf-bat in knee-jerk fashion with every new addition. Also, at the risk of sounding preachy, there is already an ECM feedback thread.

[Marcus Tanner]

I'd like ECM to be of a value commensurate with 1.5 tons and 400k c-bills, something in the same ballpark as an anti-missile system. I think Beagle is a little on the weak side, so comparisons there fall flat.

What I would suggest is to make ECM work like does on the tabletop, but pretend that the current target info data sharing is tabletop C3. Cut ECM down to cancelling Beagle, Artemis and NARC on friendlies within its radius, and make sure that enemy targeting information can't be transmitted through an ECM field (the way it cancels C3 in the tabletop). This means that you could still acquire targets, but if you're in an ECM field you'll only be able to see *your* target lock. It would also meant that nearby enemy scouts wouldn't be able to spot indirect unless they use TAG (which is not quite like tabletop, but close enough). TAG would just allow spotting effects, not transmission of target data.

Note that I propose ECM stop data-sharing if the ECM bubble wanders between two enemy mechs, even if neither of them is in the ECM field.

This would be a huge nerf, I know. However, I think that would make ECM worth 1.5 tons, not more. At that point I think it would be fair to let every mech have it, allowing the community to self-regulate how much tonnage they want to devote to messing up indirect LRM fire and target data sharing. Nerf streaks some other way if necessary (never driven a streak-cat myself).

--- FULL DISCLOSURE:

I use LRMs to compensate for low frame rate, and normally bring an AWS-8V. I always bring backup weapons, usually in the form of 4 medium lasers.

Most of my games are as PUGs, but I sometimes play with one or two friends. In particular most of my team matches have been as part of a 2-man team with a guy who loves to scout in a jenner with TAG. With him scouting and me on fire support we tend to do very well together. Often he'll get into a knife fight with another light, and call in LRMs from me to kill or cripple the enemy light, using TAG+Artemis to connect. This requires me to get to a place where I can fire on his position without getting too exposed, which is a long way from nothing in terms of strategy andsituational awareness. Once the enemy lights are down, or if they're not being a problem, then he goes and targets things while I chase after him to get into new firing positions.

It's great fun and good cooperative play, where he gets as many if not more kills and assists than I do because even when I do lots of damage, it is naturally spread all over the mech in such a way that the Jenner's medium lasers finish it off.

ECM stops this from working because my friend's TAG often ends up within an ECM field, and if he loses TAG for even a moment then I usually lose the flight of missiles because I won't have time to re-acquire.

We can still do this kind of play, sortof, but he'll have to switch to a Cicada (note the speed) while I bring an Atlas D-DC (I'm out of excuses to avoid playing an Atlas). ECM is simply too good not to bring on every mech, both brawler and scout. He needs to be able to counter-jam to keep the target lock, while I need to be able to counter-jam to keep a target lock if an enemy ECM mech wanders by. The only way to fight ECM appears to be with ECM, so I guess we just all need to bring ECM now.

---

Neither BattleTech nor Mechwarrior has ever revolved around ECM/ECCM, but this apparently does.

ECM is game-changing, but it seems to have changed the game to something other than MechWarrior.

---

If ECM is going to be ubiquitous, then poor old NARC should be permanent like in the tabletop. If they just need to get into friendly ECM to cancel NARC and if LRMS stay in this much trouble, then It could instantly redirect every LRM in the air to the NARC'd mech and it still wouldn't be too good.

---

I'm off to try out my brand new streak-armed COM-2D until I save the c-bills for an Atlas. I wouldn't want to weaken my team by not bringing ECM.

Edited by Marcus Tanner, 05 December 2012 - 05:47 PM.

[Ginga121]

Shakespeare, on 05 December 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

Needs adjustment in regards to its effect on other EW equipment, and perhaps the selection of chassis it can be used for (streak commando? really? Steiner scout?), But the numbers and effects? How about we don't nerf-bat in knee-jerk fashion with every new addition. Also, at the risk of sounding preachy, there is already an ECM feedback thread.

Agree with the Streak Commando choice! Out of the 4 commado's there are it seems odd to put an ECM on that one. Although... It would take up the space of one of the SSRM's meaning they had less streaks than they used to... hmmmm

Official feedback threads are pointless. There are so many posts that no one can be bothered to read them all and you get the same thing being said 100 times. Last time I checked it was on 27 pages. There is no way I am reading 27 pages of comments

Edited by Ginga121, 05 December 2012 - 05:41 PM.

[WM Atimar]

Quick Fix... ECM requires ammo 20 second Last time ?? taughts ?

[fxrsniper]

Xendojo, on 04 December 2012 - 12:46 PM, said:

This is an ECM thread not a light mech thread. It's known that lights are a bit OP at the moment. Collisions will fix much of the problem.

Unless you're blind he did mention ECM on a Jenner

[Ginga121]

WM WarDog, on 05 December 2012 - 05:41 PM, said:

Quick Fix... ECM requires ammo 20 second Last time ?? taughts ?

Nice thought! I don't think it would really work though. It's an electronic Jamming system not a weapon. That and most lights don't have the room for more ammo. I don't have enough ammo for my weapons as it is so there is no way I could fit ammo for the ECM as well. I'd just scrap the ECM in favour of more ammo or DHS's if they made it require ammo... And I rather like the ECM so that would make me pretty sad

Edited by Ginga121, 05 December 2012 - 05:48 PM.

[Shakespeare]

Ginga121, on 05 December 2012 - 05:40 PM, said:

Agree with the Streak Commando choice! Out of the 4 commado's there are it seems odd to put an ECM on that one. Although... It would take up the space of one of the SSRM's meaning they had less streaks than they used to... hmmmm

Official feedback threads are pointless. There are so many posts that no one can be bothered to read them all and you get the same thing being said 100 times. Last time I checked it was on 27 pages. There is no way I am reading 27 pages of comments

fair enough, but instead we get page after page of essentially the same topic, only splayed out over many threads. Like, the whole first page of feedback is ECM. I just don't think people should be starting new threads in order to 'emphasize' or get the first word in. Toss those 2c in the pool with everyone else, if it isn't really different from existing topics.

And with that, I sound like a jerkass. so I'll go away now.

[Shakespeare]

Marcus Tanner, on 05 December 2012 - 05:38 PM, said:

If ECM is going to be ubiquitous, then poor old NARC should be permanent like in the tabletop. If they just need to get into friendly ECM to cancel NARC and if LRMS stay in this much trouble, then It could instantly redirect every LRM in the air to the NARC'd mech and it still wouldn't be too good.

Ah, see, perfect example, since when I was talking about other information warfare tools, I completely forgot about NARC, it's been so marginalized. (and friggin heavy!).
Give the other EW toys a chance!

[Leorik]

ok. i have read the first 5 or 6 pages of this thread an i have seen people saying yay and people saying nay to ECM. Nowi haven't played the game since this patch came out(Damn you SWTOR!!!) but the thing i an seeing a lot is the issues that ECM is doing to sysems and the likes. Now from what i was under the Impression, PGI was trying to take the table top game and make a viable 1st person Mechwarrior game with the things found in Battletech's Table Top system. And this is my two cents on what i have seen here.

ECM does not affect Missiles in table top. It does Hinder certain systems from working such as Artemis, but it does not hinder missiles from fring at the enemy mech. It also doesn't affect TAG systems

What they should do here to make it more balanced is take what exsists in the tabletop as it is. ECM will Negate Active Probes(so those who are saying BAP should counter it... no.. no it should not), It negates Narc(Please refer to the last bracketed comment), It will disrupt Artemis making it less effective.the other things it affects are not implimented in game so i will not go there.

Now if they kept it as such that would be fine. But then we'd have people complaining that it does nothing. Well then lets take what they made it do and grab some of it's functions for this. Like make the Lockon take longer for mechs unless the enemy was tagged.

The only real change that i see that needs to be addressed is the ability to prevent players from locking on with thier missiles. This is a Team game. with different aspects to units Strengths and weaknesses.etc. And to remove the functionality of a fire support unit seems a tad ridiculous.

Also those who are telling players who prefer to use Missile boats(not the streak Cats) give it a rest. Missile support mechs in Mechwarrior are viable units to pilot.

[Ginga121]

Shakespeare, on 05 December 2012 - 05:48 PM, said:

fair enough, but instead we get page after page of essentially the same topic, only splayed out over many threads. Like, the whole first page of feedback is ECM. I just don't think people should be starting new threads in order to 'emphasize' or get the first word in. Toss those 2c in the pool with everyone else, if it isn't really different from existing topics.

And with that, I sound like a jerkass. so I'll go away now.

hahaha no, you don't... This is the internet. Put your opinion where you want. If someone disagrees then boo-hoo to them

The first pages of the forums are always full of people complaining about the new stuff. Some of them actually develop into better discussion between a few people. These are the discussions I like. Massive threads give me a headache haha

[Padic]

I've only played a few games since the introduction of ECM - so these comments are likely a little knee-jerk, but I feel like ECM is too important to not comment on early and often.

First of all - who I am. A Full-time PUG'er. I drive a CTF-3D (1x gauss, 1xAC/2, 1xLL, 2xML) almost exclusively.

I find ECM (..'s current incarnation) to be an extremely frustrating addition to MW:O.

Part of this is almost certainly that I am still playing the game that existed last week, and I'll definitely learn to play under ECM rules sooner or later.

But geeeeez, this makes the game harder. As a PUG'er, I don't see how I can ever reliably know where the enemy is. Pre-ECM, I'd basically get some idea of where they were located no matter what my allies were doing. Without the contact beeps and the radar markers, I feel like enemy mechs drift in and out of nowhere. I have lost a lot of control that I had over this game a few days ago - which is frustrating.

The bigger issue, though, is that it sort of feels as though a random team that spawns entirely without ECM will auto-lose. The other guys know where you are, can get easy locks and can rain fire down on you with impunity. You have a vague intuition of where a couple of them are, maybe ...

Long story short, my biggest complain with ECM is that it has far too big an impact on, not just a player's performance, but the entire team's.

As a responsible PUGer, am I going to be obligated to run an ECM equipped chassis? Just to ensure that my team won't have one?

[batesman]

I would like to disagree with those that say ECM is an instant win in the game. I have been in several PUGs today where good coordination without ECM have bested those teams with it.

I like the tech, but I do think it needs to be tweaked so as not to have total ECM umbrellas where everyone in the match is running it. One solution that I thought of is to allow it to have a short timer. Perhaps it is only active for 2 minutes and the pilot has to decide when to trigger it?

That said, I think it has brought some balance back to the game

The ECM forces new strategies. In PUGs, teams are now working more as teams. The medium weight class mechs are now viable again because of how the battle now flows at closer ranges and lights are more valuable spotters than ever because you need to get a visual. LRM boats can STILL rack up great damage AND the ECM encourages the use of other measures like TAG and team targeting to remove the ECM holder or counter holder. I love the change. I hope it is tweaked to improve the design, but I can actually play the game now. Now teams have to think tactically, and I don't have to worry as much about people using LRMs and streaks as a crutch.

[ManDaisy]

ECM needs and on off switch, it actually gives position away sometimes.

[Miles Naismith]

As a LRM FS pilot, I've found it even more frustrating in 8 man groups. If I try to stand away from the group to lend fire support I get singled out by lights. If I stick with the group, I get stuck in enemy ECM and either can't focus fire/hit with my LRMs, or have to convince my group to play a 'guess how many ECM the enemies have' game. If I don't have TAG I'm rendered useless the moment my spotter falls (if I even have one). If I do have TAG, I still get rendered useless the moment an ECM gets in my range.

For the record, dumb-firing LRMs doesn't work. TAGing still puts you in Brawl range, which is a few steps short of minimum LRM range. Relying on others to TAG puts you at the mercy of the other player. The only way a LRM pilot can function even CLOSE how he was is if EVERYONE has TAG and/or ECM.

Pure and simple, the reason people are so eager to use ECM at every turn is that it's a negligible cost to render anyone using LRMs or Streaks as a liability.

[Tex Arcana]

I said this in another thread somewhere: ECM in it's present form is the kind of tech that has the potential to make anyone new to the game become very frustrated. Very fast.
"I'm looking right at the Mech and it isn't lighting up?"
And that may get worse if they experience a Match where no enemies light up at all (Like I did last night) even when they can see some of them.
PS. All this commentary about PUGs working as teams since ECM is a bunch of people speaking with forked tongues I think:
Not seeing any increase, or decrease in the average PUG operation so far.

Edited by Tex Arcana, 05 December 2012 - 06:47 PM.

[Bilaz]

Putting my emotional post aside i think i can provide some reasons whyi think ecm is too good.

1 it just works. Stuff like that - when all you have to do is press one button to get something is wrong - just as wrong as streaks that always hit, or missiles that ignore obstacles. using ecm should take some effort from operator - make him solve puzzles or play tetris for example - to introduce effort and skill, not just "i have advantage becouse i have that and you - dont". Sorry that i dont have any realistic examples (and may appear rude), but i'm talking more of a concept here and have to be brief.

2 no price. It generates no heat, eats no ammo. For a source of unlimited power thats quite strange - for example it would be nice to see more and more heat generation as more and more mechs (both hostile and friendly) are getting inside protective bubble and/or it gets some interference from bap, nark and/or tag, thus forcing operator to either overheat and explode, move away from mechs to cooldown, turn it off or decrease it range. (Wont it be fun to rush d-dc atlas with 4 mech lance with tags, narcs (and flamers) just see him explode from heat?)

3 conterintuitive - its obvious that ecm is stronger on the outside than it is on the inside - since inside you can lock and outside you dont. But inside you dont have radar - even people you can target (and friendlies that are also inside) are not shown. that lack of "tactical awareness" is not something you read in comments about ecm - and knowing who is where is not less important than locks and such. So atm ecm becomes both stronger and weaker when you deviate from 180-200m (where its not working at all) - which in my opinion makes no sense. Not that it has to - just something to think about.

4 noise. A lot more bright icons and flashy signs on screen (that i'd rather not see) when jammers are around. Icons are bright and mechs and targeting cross are not - so that certanly not helping with targeting and orientation. i'd rather see where my (not laser) ordnance would go (trajectory with timemarks) - becouse they tend to fly almost at random, esp. if mounted on arms. And with ecm i pretty much always aware if i'm in trouble or hostiles are - without 5-10 different bright signs around me. That is quite minor issue tho - i'll adapt.

[GalaxyBluestar]

Nauht, on 05 December 2012 - 01:41 AM, said:

You know what the point of ECM is in the real life military? Look it up.

All those missiles that require locks - that's what ECM was created to counter. You can still dumbfire LRM's.

yes you can but you'd look like a complete fool wasteing fire power and tonnage using a weapon so innefciently, come on if we're going to be forced to use homing missles like that then we're not going to use them at all as lasers and cannons do it better. that's why the missles on the battlefield have dropped dramatically. it's too risky to hope that there's no ecms that there's tags to bail you out, that spells dead weight and lock on's already cut out before a missle arc lands on target so they were already clumsy to use, i hate using them in mwo before this patch, afterwards is just not worth risking the common brawls and flanking manourves. missles have preety much been broken cause those tons and hardpoints are all to oftern dead weight.

ECM has done it's bit not as a gadget but in brainwashing everyone to huddle and brawl now more than ever. people are just not bothered with radar anymore and always go for LOS action which turns this into a poor robot varient of any other shooter game. the heat and weapons management is the only twist this game has on any other tittle. i'm saddend to see mech warrior come to this. the scouts aren't scouting anymore they're being escourted under ecm and join in the brawl, noone wants to stand behind the lines as a support mech cause they'll be redlighted and hunted as the rest of the team stealthily races for cap. that's an all to common practice. also when both teams are under the ecm influence they play the same tactic and die. i was the only mech out in the open on snow forest and capped their base with impunity cause the ecm influenced tactics really have narrowed the gameplay down. it's just too silly.

common mech: atlas commando raven

mechs that are steady in numbers: awesome cataphract hunchback cicada <---surprised by that one

mechs on the decline: jenners catapults<---- they were too common anyways but centurions and dragons don't get the showing they deserve which is surprising as especially the dragon is made for brawling.

to summerise the maps and the equipment really do favor brawl mechs over anything long range. you really need to be cautious in a laser sniper mech or you'll be flanked far too easily, and outgunned by mechs half your size radar doesn't help at all.

Edited by GalaxyBluestar, 05 December 2012 - 07:07 PM.