2028 replies to this topic

[DeaconW]

Here is my ECM feedback...I've decided to take a break from MW:O because of it. Just like I did when it was LRM online. Hopefully the next patch provides some balance. The game just isn't fun for me anymore so I am choosing not to spend my time on it.

My specific issues:

1. It basically takes most of the chassis/variants out of the game. If you want to compete you have to go ECM heavy and only 4 chassis have ECM. This is probably my biggest issue with ECM.

2. I am not going to be forced buy an ECM mech with MC or play without ECM and try to grind C-Bills in this game environment to get an ECM capable mech.

3. It makes LRM's/SSRM's poor tactical choices as weapons. Can you make them work? Yes...but why would you even try when other choices are much more likely to be successful? A better balance to SSRM's for example, would be to fix the netlag issues and bring back collisions. In fact, if those two issues get addressed there will be NO reason IMO to use SSRM. I agree the streakcat was a cheesemech but we are now going to the exact opposite end of the spectrum vice finding a balance.

4. It severely degrades the value of already purchased modules such as sensor and targeting.

All of this is just my humble opinion and for the record, I am not a streakcat guy..this isn't sour grapes...just un-emotional feedback as requested in a beta.

Edited by DeaconW, 05 December 2012 - 07:32 PM.

[Quantum Prime]

As a medium hunchback - it feels like a game of chance - will we get ECMs? oh we did! sweet - how many? oh we have 3 they have 1 - we won They have one and we have none? we lost. It's turned into a game of who has more ECMs. I like that it limited the LRM + ARTEMIS overpower but i think this went a liiittle too far? BAP should be made into a counter for ECM. I'd hate to see the game turn into a bunch of Lights and Atlases... I think that 8 ECMs should be the same as 1 ECM - that would limit the ECM battles. Also i think once the mech has been 'spotted', the ECM should work to slow down the targeting as opposed to stop it. Perhaps light mechs could be except from this since they are so small, they would be easier to hide under the ECM cloud.

[Tesunie]

I do have to say I do like ECM. It's suppose to play havoc with your foe's electronic systems. (A PPC should have some backlash on a mechs electronic systems as well, but that's a different subject.) There should be, as far as my knowledge of the Battletech lore, actually two versions of ECM. There is the Guardian version, a generalized bubble of interference that can be detected where it is, but not what's inside it, and the Suit system, which is like a Stealth Fighter where it covers only the mech that's got it and keeps it from being detected by almost any means. (I could be wrong on this.) Then again, this isn't my point.

I'd rather see the Begal (how do you spell that?) Active Probe (BAP) should be a system that is Chasis limited as well, but cuts through the ECM. I also feel that Tag should continue to work on ECMed targets as well, as it's a tight beam that missiles target onto (they target the reflecting light if I'm correct, but there are several systems that produce the TAG effect). NARC should be shut off, as their signal they are transmitting would get jammed, so I agree there.

Besides the fact that TAG and BAP should work (BAP could cut through some of it, but not all) on helping to cut through ECM, I don't recall any ECM system that was designed to cut another ECM off. That's really the fishy part with me. Last I recalled, that's one of the uses of BAP, and it only works for the mechs that's got it on. BAP doesn't provide it's bonus to other mechs (wouldn't let them see through the ECM).

In Summery, I like it. I really do. Honestly, I haven't felt it's impact yet, but I know it's playing havoc with other people, particularly the missile boats. I just feel that ECM shouldn't counter ECM, and that TAG and BAP should help be counters to ECM.

(I read that TAGs where a way to counter ECM, but then in the same announcement, I also read that ECM stopped TAG from working... can this be cleared for me?

[Stingz]

Quantum Prime, on 05 December 2012 - 07:26 PM, said:

As a medium hunchback - it feels like a game of chance - will we get ECMs? oh we did! sweet - how many? oh we have 3 they have 1 - we won They have one and we have none? we lost. It's turned into a game of who has more ECMs.

A team that can work together, or uses voice chat can bypass the effects of ECM. More ECM won't save a bad team from loosing, I know that from experience.

It is very unlikely that +4 ECM mechs are random players, probably a 4-person group all with ECM.

[Knoxic]

The main issue is still that the battlefield has become nothing but Altai battles and it's because of ECM that it's that way.

[Kyone Akashi]

As the pilot of a JR7-K I am unfortunately not allowed to slot ECM myself, so I will just have to learn to take a couple hundred steps back whenever I spot a Streak-Cat on the horizon. However, I have to say that I've still enjoyed the games where I saw ECM in action on someone elses 'Mech. Even without carrying it myself and thus being unable to engage in the "counter-counter game" of the two modes, it was fun to follow a Guardian-equipped Commando or Raven around, feeling comparatively safe from once-again-buffed and rather hurtful LRMs.

Hai, it is more tricky when one is on the receiving end of being jammed, but in that case the jamming 'Mech is identified and has a high risk of becoming the primary target. Which is fairly dangerous, considering how easy light 'Mechs go pop.

So far it feels good.

Tesunie, on 05 December 2012 - 07:27 PM, said:

I read that TAGs where a way to counter ECM, but then in the same announcement, I also read that ECM stopped TAG from working... can this be cleared for me?

This was explained here: http://mwomercs.com/...dian-ecm-suite/

In short: When you are within jamming range of an ECM-equipped 'Mech set to "disrupt", your TAG will not work. (TAG transmits positional data to smart missiles like LRM and SSRM, which will not work if your comms are jammed)
If you are outside jamming range (180 meters), TAG will render 'Mechs that would otherwise be obscured from sensors visible for your teammates, in addition to providing the usual missile accuracy bonus.

TAG range is getting boosted so that it should become easier to mark hidden targets that you have established line of sight to.

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 05 December 2012 - 08:00 PM.

[USMC Iceman]

To Begin my post I am stating I didn't use this Quoted Post to TROLL them or Attack them. I only saw it as a very well posted summery of every other post that was upset by the new ECM in the game. So Please refrain from calling me a " Troll " to counter my point view and points I'm trying to make.

DeaconW, on 05 December 2012 - 07:17 PM, said:

Here is my ECM feedback...I've decided to take a break from MW:O because of it. Just like I did when it was LRM online. Hopefully the next patch provides some balance. The game just isn't fun for me anymore so I am choosing not to spend my time on it.

My specific issues:

1. It basically takes most of the chassis/variants out of the game. If you want to compete you have to go ECM heavy and only 4 chassis have ECM. This is probably my biggest issue with ECM.

P#1: OR... You can have 3 ECM Units. This will give 1 Assult is best to say with the group with ECM and 2 Light Mechs Running ECM and ECCM together. Yes TOGETHER!!!! I only share this info now due to I see a major issue with the DEVs leaping off cliffs to make very small groups happy. When you have a ECM/ECCM team of 2 moving up you end up with one protecting and one counting the scout units of the other team. This allows things like LRMS and SSRMS to kill the lights just like before the ECM patch. BAP is needed just as before due to only the unit with an Active ECM mounted gets 100% cover from the BAP and This is removed when the unit is hit with ECCM allowing the BAP to work. Try this out. It changes the game play into 3 and 4 man units moving as a 8 man team One scouting group and one Main DPS group. Having 4 LRMS is not too smart as before you could have 7 guys running LRMS and some how win ECM allow the 270m-0 Range units to become effective with out the long range Rain of LRMS with out very good Team work from the Scouts using the system I described above.

2. I am not going to be forced buy an ECM mech with MC or play without ECM and try to grind C-Bills in this game environment to get an ECM capable mech.

Q#2 Good Every one in A ECM mech is silly.

3. It makes LRM's/SSRM's poor tactical choices as weapons. Can you make them work? Yes...but why would you even try when other choices are much more likely to be successful? A better balance to SSRM's for example, would be to fix the netlag issues and bring back collisions. In fact, if those two issues get addressed there will be NO reason IMO to use SSRM. I agree the streakcat was a cheesemech but we are now going to the exact opposite end of the spectrum vice finding a balance.

P#3: LRMS and SSRMS are not poor tactical choices if you learn how to use them. In REAL WORLD combat you have ECM and ECCM being use in the AIR and SEA and in many Armored units. Read over my P#1 to see the easy work around to using SSRM/LRMS. As for Streakcats they are very good at Killing ECM lights still when you have good team work with ECCM. So they are not so cheesemech as more a vital weapon to killing ECM Units with LRM support.

4. It severely degrades the value of already purchased modules such as sensor and targeting.

P#4: No, In-fact its 180 opposite. Having these Modules are very strong due to you only end up with w 25% slower lock time and any thing that gives you a 25% faster effect make the total 0. Or a basic time.

All of this is just my humble opinion and for the record, I am not a streakcat guy..this isn't sour grapes...just un-emotional feedback as requested in a beta.

Again I feel that many people are pulling their " hair " out over this ECM. And many over just a few hours of Play. This ECM Change was brilliant in giving a very small but real world effect of how it works. And Yes you can say that every Great Fighter or Unit will have A ECM/ECCM system running at the same time but this is forcing TEAM work. And For 8 man Pre-mades this is GREAT. Due to a well Planed attack or defense can now win with more people playing rolls on the team other than LRMS and Brawling with no reason to work as a team other than to call focused fire on whom ever your were steam rolling. But you can still do this only with a issue of your ECM/ECCM teams working to help the whole team win.

PS I could be in error on some of the issues with how ECM/ECCM works with BAP or MODS but that would be a much better discussion vs how much everyone loves ECM or hates it.

Edited by USMC Iceman, 05 December 2012 - 08:06 PM.

[Belkor]

Gingham, on 05 December 2012 - 01:05 PM, said:

Disagree entirely about the game being perfect before. However, ECM indeed does need to be toned way back. A piece of equipment that counters EVERYTHING and can only be countered by itself? Who came up with that system? Any of the effects by themselves aren't too bad, but stacking them together is too much. Alternatively, the effects should be maybe half of what they are currently. As it is several weapons are all but entirely useless because of ECM. ECM should be an enhancement, not a direct counter to a large amount of things.

Since when did countering LRMs and Streaks equal countering everything? If you need to exaggerate that badly, you're already wrong. If you relied solely on streaks as a crutch, you deserved this nerf.

Edited by Belkor, 05 December 2012 - 08:09 PM.

[Tesunie]

Kyone Akashi, on 05 December 2012 - 07:52 PM, said:

This was explained here: http://mwomercs.com/...dian-ecm-suite/

In short: When you are within jamming range of an ECM-equipped 'Mech set to "disrupt", your TAG will not work. (TAG transmits positional data to smart missiles like LRM and SSRM, which will not work if your comms are jammed)
If you are outside jamming range (180 meters), TAG will render 'Mechs that would otherwise be obscured from sensors visible for your teammates, in addition to providing the usual missile accuracy bonus.

TAG range is getting boosted so that it should become easier to mark hidden targets that you have established line of sight to.

I had read the bottom part of that, and the top part said something else. I figured that's what it was talking about to be honest.

I still feel TAG should be able to, well, tag a target even inside the ECM range. The missiles (from what I understand) lock onto the refracted laser beam, not some transmitted data stream. However, the mech getting word out that it's tagged something would be the harder part. Not to mention, TAG only works as long as it's being held onto the target, so I don't think it'd be too overpowering or counter to ECM, as few pilots I know of are capable of holding a TAG beam on someone for that long before they have to run and dodge. Then again, TAG probably should be limited more or less to light mechs or mechs like the Cicada which are known to be spotting platforms, even in lore.

Also, the targeting system we all seem to enjoy is more of a C3 target system. By all acounts, we shouldn't be able to "see" targets that other mechs are seeing without a C3 targeting system. But I'm not complaining. (Though we should have actual sensors that can detect opponents even behind a wall or rock. But I do like the current game play system, so I'm not complaining in the least!)

[BR0WN_H0RN3T]

LuckJaw, on 04 December 2012 - 01:56 PM, said:

Well, I am not seeing that.." what i see is Atlas 8 man group all with ECM... or bunch of light all with ECM... Or I see 2 light running side by side with 1 streak cat... Or all mass an moving as a big ball and all shooting of the same target...

1 Item cannot have that much of an impact on the game....

I know ECM prevents lock on so people are blobbing, but you can still free-fire lrms without a lock and score hits. Is anyone try this out? It does require a bit of judgment but if they blob then can pay off.

[Corvus Antaka]

Tesunie, on 05 December 2012 - 08:10 PM, said:

I had read the bottom part of that, and the top part said something else. I figured that's what it was talking about to be honest.

I still feel TAG should be able to, well, tag a target even inside the ECM range. The missiles (from what I understand) lock onto the refracted laser beam, not some transmitted data stream. However, the mech getting word out that it's tagged something would be the harder part. Not to mention, TAG only works as long as it's being held onto the target, so I don't think it'd be too overpowering or counter to ECM, as few pilots I know of are capable of holding a TAG beam on someone for that long before they have to run and dodge. Then again, TAG probably should be limited more or less to light mechs or mechs like the Cicada which are known to be spotting platforms, even in lore.

Also, the targeting system we all seem to enjoy is more of a C3 target system. By all acounts, we shouldn't be able to "see" targets that other mechs are seeing without a C3 targeting system. But I'm not complaining. (Though we should have actual sensors that can detect opponents even behind a wall or rock. But I do like the current game play system, so I'm not complaining in the least!)

yeah I dont get why TAG would stop working inside 180m. this means an SSRM mech now needs a TAG to be viable, or must be able to maintain an exact range of 181 to 249 meters. Kind of Silly.

[BR0WN_H0RN3T]

Rixsaw, on 04 December 2012 - 10:40 PM, said:

The patch notes say ECM reduces your range 25% of what it was. Meaning if you could target a LOS mech at 800 meters you can now target a mech at 200 meters.

I have found that distance to be like 100 meters, as I was shooting SRM 6's into an atlas I could see but couldn't pickup on radar.

I think the easy fix to the ECM is change it to 50% reduction, giving us 400 meters to play with rather than basically falling all over the enemy before we can press R

I agree with you. Perhaps 50% would be better for a piece of equipment that only weights 1.5T....but what do PGI propose instead...yes, let's increase the range of TAG by 50% instead.

[DaffyGKH]

I recognize that some players who oriented their playstyle around brawling will love ECM - while players who oriented their playstyle around missiles are finding the game to hardly be worth playing.

A balance between both needs to be found, in my opinion - not the near-absolute nullification of missiles, which are a very valid aspect of the game, and should still be supported to fair extents.

Edited by DaffyGKH, 05 December 2012 - 08:41 PM.

[Illydth]

steelblueskies, on 05 December 2012 - 05:03 PM, said:

ecm in previous versions of mwo, really. you mean the effect implemented on the 4th to actually do something for the first time?

so this "something" it was doing prior... good way to invalidate any opinion you put forth. also bap already has been out. ecm cancels it out, as stated in the command chair post put up about ecm, for about a week prior to the live release of ecm. i find it ironic you aren't the first person in this thread to make that comment erroneously.

Ahem, er steel, before you go posting this in multiple places and make an even larger fool of yourself, there were other versions of Mech Warrior in the PC prior to MW:O. I know for a fact ECM was included in MW4 and I believe in MW3 as well, but I could be wrong on that account.

When people are referring to "other MW games" they don't mean previous versions of MW:O, they mean MW2 and it's expansions, MW3 and MW4....

*cough*

[Tesunie]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 05 December 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

yeah I dont get why TAG would stop working inside 180m. this means an SSRM mech now needs a TAG to be viable, or must be able to maintain an exact range of 181 to 249 meters. Kind of Silly.

As far as I knew, that was one of the reasons TAG was put into existence. It's got the drawback of needing constant line of sight/fire/hitting to be of any effect anyway. Make it worth our while at that point. Also, last I knew, a TAG should have a decent range on it. Though it would kinda give away your position as well. "Gee... follow the red line of light... there you are." *Snipe*

[Flawless]

Adapt to the change. The game is playable,There is just alot more depth to it now that will take some time to adjusting to. If your crying about it now, its probably due to the fact that your play style is harder now.

[Koningswulf]

Dont see whats all the fuss is about really! Sure Ecm is good but not gamewinning by itself by any means.
It uses up tonnage and slots and can be rendered useless, and so far I havent seen any ECM make the killing shoot!
What it does give is a fog of war that previously has been missing in the game due to small maps.
Now the need for scouting and screen as well as keeping people in reserv has made the game much more tactical.
I for one really like ECM and hope they keep it as it is, just learn to adapt. Every time there is new equipment people start screaming its OP and you cant win against it, thats a lot of BS because all sides have the same possibilities in the game.

[Illydth]

Snib, on 05 December 2012 - 05:10 PM, said:

What a load of bull. You QQ about LRMs and try to keep a straight face saying Streaks are not affected? If anything Streaks are much more affected. LRM boats never could defend against light mechs sneaking/racing up on them. The main target of streaks however were exactly those lights and they cannot engage them anymore, either. And should a target really wander out of ECM protection (which is fairly difficult considering it's a 360m diameter around each ECM mech) then it's far easier to target it with LRM than with SSRM.

Both LRM and SSRM are still viable in PUGs if your team's ECM properly counters their ECM - although the added difficulty is that you don't necessarily have any ECM to counter theirs - the MM does not balance it.

That seems a bit of a lopsided view at this point. Perhaps from a brawler's perspective you might be right, it's much harder to lock Streaks in Combat (though to be honest I have 3 streaks on my D-DC and never had a problem getting them fired off last night).

However, please understand that the newest most popular build out there right now is a commando with ecm and...yea, you guessed it, Streak SRMs.

I have no doubt that streaks are affected, they're just not adversely affected enough that you're seeing them drop off the battlefield...actually they seem to have become even MORE popular with more ECM Lag Shielded Light mechs running around with them now.

[DaffyGKH]

Flawless, on 05 December 2012 - 08:28 PM, said:

Adapt to the change. The game is playable,There is just alot more depth to it now that will take some time to adjusting to. If your crying about it now, its probably due to the fact that your play style is harder now.

Infact, I play a brawler!
However, It's a sad sight to have not seen a single missileboat within the past two days.

[Waladil]

So... anyone here watch Extra Credits? An episode they did recently has very direct influence on how ECM is borked.
http://penny-arcade....de/counter-play

The episode is very entertaining, and I advise you guys (players and devs alike) to watch it. But if you don't feel like it, I'll summarize.

If you want to put in a feature (such as ECM), think about how it's fun not just to USE but also to fight AGAINST.

So, ECM. How is it fun to use? Well, it screws with your enemy's targeting, prevents LRMs and SSRMs from being effective, and prevents your enemies from getting detailed damage info and coring you easier. So the use is pretty darn fun!
But how is it fun to counter? Well, to counter ECM you want to... um... use ECM. Or a TAG laser, to some extent. But wait! If you've got a TAG laser, stay over 180 meters from their ECM 'mech, or they will automatically counter your counter. Really, the only EFFECTIVE counter is your own ECM. TAG is simply not an effective counter because it requires constant LoS targeting by a 'mech that is over 180m from the enemy, but not over 450m. I mounted a TAG on my 'mech just for that purpose and it is highly ineffective. Largely because it requires me to constantly target an enemy, which I can't do when there's five of them and I'm in an Awesome. Because they'll core me in about two seconds flat.

So how is ECM fun to counter: Answer? Unless you have an ECM-capable 'mech, it's not fun. Not fun at all.


My suggestion: Have an item that can be mounted on ANY 'mech that PARTIALLY counters ECM. How about this: if you have BAP on your 'mech, then your targeting computer cuts through ECM. (Possibly at reduced range? For this example, I'll go with one-half standard target range)
So, if you've got BAP:
And you're over 400m from an enemy protected by ECM: You can't target them unless a teammate shares info.
And you're over 180m but under 400m from an enemy protected by ECM: you can target them normally and share target information.
And you're under 180m: YOU can target them normally (including missile lock), but you CANNOT send that information out to your teammates.

As I'm thinking about this, I'm worried that might over-nerf ECM, but that is most easily balanced at the targeting range. My first thought was standard target range (800m), my second one-half (400m). Right now I'm actually considering either 200m or 250m. (200m: Standard targeting range against ECM. 250: Standard targeting range against ECM + 25% BAP bonus).

So this would install BAP as a PARTIAL counter to enemy ECM, preventing some of its painful effects.