2028 replies to this topic

[Kyone Akashi]

Looks like the missile boats have a hard time adapting to this latest feature. It would have probably been better to have it in Closed Beta right away rather than patching it in at a later date. Now it's a different game where spotters have suddenly become way more valuable. Or, alternatively, the team just has to learn to take out the ECM-equipped BattleMech first if they brought neither TAG nor counter-ECM to the field.

It's not "sitting back and holding down the fire button" anymore, as was often thrown around as a taunt here.

Tesunie, on 05 December 2012 - 08:10 PM, said:

I still feel TAG should be able to, well, tag a target even inside the ECM range. The missiles (from what I understand) lock onto the refracted laser beam, not some transmitted data stream.

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 05 December 2012 - 08:11 PM, said:

yeah I dont get why TAG would stop working inside 180m. this means an SSRM mech now needs a TAG to be viable, or must be able to maintain an exact range of 181 to 249 meters. Kind of Silly.

I intentionally included the link to the Sarna article in my post because of such concerns. Really, did nobody click it? :/

The missiles do not lock on to the TAG's dot but only receive data from transmission. It is likely a matter of efficiency - Target Acquisition Gear is not standard, so Inner Sphere manufacturers will not just equip each and every missile churned out by the factories with in-field adaptable optical equipment (as every single LRM you launch would have to be coded to the pulse-level of the TAG) just in case someone might drag an infrared painter around.

Instead, TAG is used as a sort of rangefinder where a BattleMech such equipped projects the dot onto a target, then compares that position to its own and transmits the data to the rest of the unit, where it is used to augment the standard data stream between launcher and missile, correcting minor flaws and so assuring increased accuracy.

This is BattleTech canon.

Also, my SSRM-equipped Jenner is doing fine without ECM. People with silly builds like the Streak-Cat (where missiles that require lock-on are your one and only weapon) might find themselves in a more uncomfortable situation, though, if they get hunted down by a Raven or Commando. And rightly so.

Edited by Kyone Akashi, 05 December 2012 - 11:13 PM.

[KalebFenoir]

Rixsaw, on 04 December 2012 - 10:40 PM, said:

The patch notes say ECM reduces your range 25% of what it was. Meaning if you could target a LOS mech at 800 meters you can now target a mech at 200 meters.

Wouldn't reducing 800 meters by 25% render it down to a range of 600 meters instead, since it's reducing the distance you can target from by 200 meters? It doesn't make your target range 200 meters. That'd mean that the ECM is cutting your range by 75%, not 25%.

[Zygot]

I agree to a certain degree that ECM is proper atm, but it has done one thing that PGI has worked really hard to make sure happens, this is balanced teams are the best. Now it's 4 atlases, 2 catapults and 2 scouts. I almost never play a game against another group running less than 4 atlases. Even had one with 6. The roll of anything outside Atlases and 1-2 scouts aside from streak cats with a counter ECM scout to help em out have become useless. Everyone is just huddling about 600 tons+ together and moving in formation, it doesn't matter how well you are properly positioned to fight them, it doesn't matter how evenly balanced you are, tonnage has made a massive factor into this game.

[Strelitzia]

A relatively simple solution that hasn't been raised for balancing ECM is Heat. To be precise, constant heat generation for a Mech with ECM active. This type of cost allows the balancing of a powerful ability without outright nerfs.

Currently the ECM has two modes, jamming and counter which imo is a needlessly complicated mechanic. Instead this proposal suggests an On/Off toggle for ECM.

While ECM is On the user will generate 2-3% (subject to change, maybe also 10% on activation cost) heat per second but it's function remains the same as the current ECM. So an ECM equip mech has about 30-40 seconds of ECM uptime before they have to shut ECM off to cool down. This also limits their action during this time so we don't see ECM equipped mechs just completely outclassing other lights but instead have to manage their heat carefully. Also, this changes the static gameplay of having a constant passive stealth bubble to a more dynamic mechanic where tactical decisions about ECM use is made on the fly.

To rebalance the CounterECM mechanic any two mech with ECM active will automatically cancel each other's ECM field. This allows for a fun play mechanic between two/multiple ECM players to tactically counter each other while watching their heat and ECM uptime.

ECM is a powerful tool and powerful abilities are very fun to use, but can also be balanced without nerfs as long as there are reasonable limits their usage.

[Teh Hobo]

Wow ecm is flat out busted. Nothing has been as busted as this, not streaks, not gauss, not LRMs, nothing. All of those things had counters that wern't "bring the same thing" even 120kph swaybacks wernt as bad as this. Fix this, please. 8 man drops are no longer fun they're like pulling teeth, long periods of boring punctated with short periods of dieing. Brawlers are almost unstoppable now and for the counter arguments.... you're wrong, that's it, just wrong. Ecm is flat out broken and needs to do what it did in the TT, namely block c3(we all have inate c3 computers so this function will kill indirect fire, which is huge, but still allowing lrms to be fired at someone you can see), artimis, BAP and NARC, and, with advanced rules, EECM and ghost targets. Having it turn streaks into expensive srm2s would be within the spirit of ecm as well. Nerf streaks if they are a problem not all lock-on weapons.

As for those who claim battletech isn't about lrm boating, I give you the Catapault, Longbow, Viking, Bombadier, Archer, Crossbow, Trebuchet, Apollo and my personal fave the Yeoman. Second line fire support has long been a part of any strategic sim, which this game is supposed to be, previous MW titles don't fall in this category, they were action games.

Lrms counter assaults and silly mechs who don't like cover. Scouts , harrasers, scout hunters, snipers are ALL are good counters to LRMs. All used good teamwork and were fun. ECM has killed this, why bring lrms? A good team won't let you target anything and tag is a laughable counter. 750m? Make it infinite, it'll still be a terrible counter that requires far too much skill and luck to effectively counter the strategy it's "designed" to counter which requires no skill to use. Don't tell me ecm takes more skill than effective LRM support, ECM takes a skill you were already using(scouting, brawling) and takes away the best counter for it. It limits strategies, it doesn't increase them.

Please take away the magic cloak of invisibility.

Rant over <wipes brow>.

[ebea51]

FROM THE PATCH NOTES:

Disruption Mode:

* ‘Cloaks’ friendlies within 180 meters (reduces detection distance to 25% of normal range).
* Disrupts enemies sensors (targeting system), as well as targeting communication (sharing of targeting information) within 180 meters.
* Disables enemy NARC
* Disables broadcasting of TAG (if friendly is within sphere of influences); However, if you TAG a mech with ECM OUTSIDE of their sphere of influence, it allows you and your friendlies to target
* Slow down weapon locks by 25%
* Slow down target gathering by 25%
* Active Probes do not gain any benefits against ECM equipped enemies

Now... do i understand this right.... that ECM in Disrupt mode:
1. Slow down weapon locks by 25%
2. Slow down target gathering by 25%

OR...

That only if you TAG a mech with EMC OUTSIDE of their sphere of influence, THEN you can target with the 25% slower weapon lock and target gathering?


Because right now, TAG or otherwise, this IS no targeting or locking anything up within the sphere of an ECM by a TAG WITHING or OUTSIDE the ECM range.
The only way, ONLY, way you can get a lock within an ECM range is by directly countering.

[Fane]

Ok I really like the new ECM. Despite the fact that I am a Cat pilot and now have to change my load out so I am not helpless to an ECM mech. My one complaint is either give me a manual firing button for LRM's and Streaks OR allow TAG or NARC's to counteract a ECM. I actually like the idea of a NARC counter acting it as not only does this make sense, but also fast little mechs would be hard as hell to hit with them.

Just adding my two cents.

[White Bear 84]

Greyson Kitiker, on 05 December 2012 - 11:06 PM, said:

Sadly It totaly screws over any pugs made up with a large number of actually trail mechs with pilots still learning the game. They enter the game to fight and there side doesn't have ECM so they don't see the enemy mechs can't understand why they can't lock onto them and can't even really fire blind at the enemy mechs that are right under there crosshairs do to some really bad weapon converge code.

I second this, but i also think that ECM really does help pugs too. I played several pug matches where there was 2/3 ECM and we absolutely nailed it, but also played a few where i was the only ECM player and the other team had 2/3 - the worst was when my team also had no LRMs... ...i think somewhere along the line there needs to be some kind of bias where pugs playing in trials get put up against other trial mechs as the first preference in order to offer a fairer balance.

Either that or add ECM capabilities into the drop limit e.g. so you dont get 4 ecm players vs just 1 ecm.. ..which is clearly a major imbalance; especially if the team with only 1 ecm is predominantly trial mechs.

Otherwise i absolutely love playing with ECM and the way it affects a game's tactics and flow, i dont think it is OP and have found that in the majority of situations it actually encourages better teamplay; especially coming from a D-DC pilot. Mech's use you as a shield and stick together as a group knowing full well that ECM is the best defence against getting spot and LRM boating.

Edited by White Bear 84, 05 December 2012 - 11:45 PM.

[GKnightBC]

I sure hope that PGI takes all the comments into effect. It boils down to this: ECM equipped scouts are now superior to non-ECM equipped mechs, regardless of tonnage. Okay, I can get that ECM disrupts the lock for that mech, but 100m radius around the mech as well?!? The dome of invisibility needs to be reduced down to a reasonable range. If you are not right next to the mech with ECM, no benefit. LRMs have been nerfed down to direct fire AoE weapons, and when playing a mech with LRMs, we just sit around for the entire match until the ECM mech stomp us. SSRMs have been crippled.
In the 8v8 matches I've played, I've seen two variants: either a 6 atlas, 2 scout group, or an all scout group. With ECM there is no stopping without a similar build. Total tonnage should be a factor in 8v8 matchmaking, but that's a different issue. I recommend a range reduction in ECM to restore usability of LRMs.

[gjnii]

The weapon or 'Mech affected under ECM:
cicada 2b, cicada 3m, atlas d-dc

The behaviour that weapon or 'Mech affected under ECM:
I ran my cicada 2b to get its last elite talent unlocked, 4ML. 1.53 heat efficiency, XL320 engine. and while I had a decent time in every match, as others have stated Every match in which my team had no ecm but the other team did, we lost I averaged 40% wins I'd say. if both had ecm it was another matter.
after finishing talenting it, I busted out my Cicada 3m, 4ML 1.53 heat efficiency, XL300 engine and a smidge less armor than my 2b. the drop to 300 engine meant I got to load AMS and BAP, pulled the BAP and dropped in ECM... and I've won about 75% of matches with it. my 3m is technically inferior to the 2b in nearly every regard. and yet it put me from losing a slight majority of the time with the 2b to winning the majority of the time.
So I switched to my A-DDC and tweaked it to feat ecm, and yea.. its the ecm not the mech.
right now ecm is overpowered, I'm an atlas/cicada pilot, with the occasional bit of phract piloting thrown in, but even I can see that its too strong at the moment.


A suggested change (increase/decrease) to the ECM stats to improve balance.
Three things:
First.. more weight, more slots. I'd say 3tons and 3slots would be where I'd start. Slots punish the Atlas, weight punishes the lights.. I personally think the lights have it easier at the moment, so it'd probably be better to up weight rather than slots beyond 3.

Second, allow missile locks inside range, but give it a long lock and de-lock the target after each shot, forcing a RELOCK every time missiles are fired.
1) it stops the streak-cat stagger hit effect some people complain about so much as they'll have to alpha their shots.
2) it still reduces the effect of missiles in ecm, while still allowing them to function normally outside it.

Finally, let people with BAP get an acquire at longer range (maybe double), and have missile locks function as listed above. If that makes BAP too powerful up it to 3slot 3ton too..but at least then non-ecm scouts can still spot/help without having to eyeball and communicate it without the shorthand of targetting and LRM boats will still be able to fire a little if there's a bap spotting for them. it'll also cut down on the ghost games where no one sees anyone and one base just gets capped faster than the other.

[Belkor]

Jakob Knight, on 05 December 2012 - 12:54 PM, said:

Incorrect.

This is a PUG game, with every player out for themselves. That is the game the Devs have made, and ECM is the final proof that this is what they intend. There is no means in the game to connect to other players to form groups, and no way to communicate if you did to set up your group prior to dropping. Both of these are hard and undeniable proof that this game is anti-team, and desired to be so by the Dev team.

The lengths they have gone to to remove the only team-based weapon in the game (LRMs) is also proof how much the Dev team is determined to not have teams in their game.

As a non ECM PUGer (Heavy mechs), I have no problem with ECM. In fact, it made the game far more fun for me with more brawls, tactics, moving out as groups and etc. I've had teams with no ECMs against teams that had ECMs; we still won.

Edited by Belkor, 05 December 2012 - 11:56 PM.

[Aresye]

The issue doesn't lie in ECM itself, but rather a compounding of issues that ECM just stacks up on.

In other words, it's great to see ECM implemented, and light mechs being able to help their team out by providing ECM cover and jamming.

Which would all be great, if the freaking net code in the game wasn't so off the wall that nearly every light mech carrying ECM can frolic through an entire enemy team, barely taking any damage, and render an entire team's electronics useless while the rest of the team comes in and wipes them up. It's either focus all 8 teammates on killing the one light running circles with ECM and a warp shield, or focus on the other, more threatening enemies without any kind of target information. A lose/lose situation for the team.

Second problem lies with not having any kind of weight balancing for the 8 man drops. I've played more drops against waves of 3-4 light mechs all carrying ECM (see above) than the steiner scout lance everybody else seems to mention, which, because of the netcode and how light mechs behave, is almost unbeatable.

All these complaints about ECM are because of all these issues combined, which turns a feature that wasn't intended to be overpowered, into a game winning strategy. The only strategy I see involved in 8 man drops is how many ECM carrying light mechs can lag shield their way around the enemy while the heavier mechs mop up from the chaos, which is about as legitimate of a strategy as taking advantage of an unlimited ammo bug, or similar exploit.

The only way to win is play along, exploit the same mechanics, and see which team gets luckier.

Edited by Aresye, 05 December 2012 - 11:57 PM.

[h00n]

DaffyGKH, on 05 December 2012 - 12:15 PM, said:

>Game is perfect.
>ECM gets implemented.
>Game unplayable.

ECM should only benefit the mech equipping it - it's currently way to easy to abuse.

Abuse?

You know what's easy to abuse? LRMs.

Getting hit by LRMs constantly in an assault renders you useless in a fight. By the time you get to the fight, your armor is stripped and you're a free kill.

Now I can walk side by side with a D-DC and ruin everyone's ****.

The key is that I'm side by side with a mech that is helping me do my job of dealing stripping armor off of assaults and killing mediums/heavies. You know what we call that? Teamwork.

You know what's not teamwork? Clicking at the red box that a trial mech kid happens to paint up for you without his knowledge.

Oh, I bet you're a streak-kiddie too. That's a whole 'nother rant.

tl;dr, get bent.

[AlphaPiAlpha]

There are so many good suggestions here.. Who from PGI reads all this? Just wondering...

[DaffyGKH]

Grym, on 05 December 2012 - 09:37 PM, said:

You want a brawler? Try doing it without easy mode SSRM spam.

SSRMs aren't an illegitimate weapon. No less than Gauss kittens or LRM boats - but I -don't- operate solely off of them. Even when theyre on lockdown due to ECM I successfully manage to pump out 400+ damage in a victory match.

Aresye, on 05 December 2012 - 11:56 PM, said:

The issue doesn't lie in ECM itself, but rather a compounding of issues that ECM just stacks up on.

In other words, it's great to see ECM implemented, and light mechs being able to help their team out by providing ECM cover and jamming.

Which would all be great, if the freaking net code in the game wasn't so off the wall that nearly every light mech carrying ECM can frolic through an entire enemy team, barely taking any damage, and render an entire team's electronics useless while the rest of the team comes in and wipes them up. It's either focus all 8 teammates on killing the one light running circles with ECM and a warp shield, or focus on the other, more threatening enemies without any kind of target information. A lose/lose situation for the team.

Second problem lies with not having any kind of weight balancing for the 8 man drops. I've played more drops against waves of 3-4 light mechs all carrying ECM (see above) than the steiner scout lance everybody else seems to mention, which, because of the netcode and how light mechs behave, is almost unbeatable.

All these complaints about ECM are because of all these issues combined, which turns a feature that wasn't intended to be overpowered, into a game winning strategy. The only strategy I see involved in 8 man drops is how many ECM carrying light mechs can lag shield their way around the enemy while the heavier mechs mop up from the chaos, which is about as legitimate of a strategy as taking advantage of an unlimited ammo bug, or similar exploit.

The only way to win is play along, exploit the same mechanics, and see which team gets luckier.

That brings a few new ideas to the table. I agree with you, though! It's a combination of things - not just ECM itself. It's a great thing with a great premesis - it's just that, at the moment, it's... a bit much.

[Whawk]

ECM is good. And it's nothing to fix here. Use TAG and stop crying.
At least now it's interesting close combat instead of old "LRM spam-base defence-rabbit" gameplay.

[DaffyGKH]

h00n, on 06 December 2012 - 12:11 AM, said:

Abuse?

You know what's easy to abuse? LRMs.

Getting hit by LRMs constantly in an assault renders you useless in a fight. By the time you get to the fight, your armor is stripped and you're a free kill.

Now I can walk side by side with a D-DC and ruin everyone's ****.

The key is that I'm side by side with a mech that is helping me do my job of dealing stripping armor off of assaults and killing mediums/heavies. You know what we call that? Teamwork.

You know what's not teamwork? Clicking at the red box that a trial mech kid happens to paint up for you without his knowledge.

Oh, I bet you're a streak-kiddie too. That's a whole 'nother rant.

tl;dr, get bent.

I have said time and time again - I seldom use streaks, and I don't use a streak cat. No need for the personal insults, either - this is a discussion thread, not a flame war. I have 2 on my C1 just to use up the spare 4 tons that I couldn't do anything else with. That is irrelevent, though.

I haven't said that ECM needs to be removed altogether or anything of that sort - just that it needs to be nerfed a bit. I think it's absolutely wonderful that you can coordinate with your group mates and shield yourself from fire and whatnot. The functionality of ECM is fantastic, and promotes group play - which is a great thing. As it stands right now, though, the number of ECMs on your group pretty much dictates who wins and loses the match - and it shouldn't be that way.

I'll compare it to AMS - even though it's role is completely different. Does AMS shoot down every single missile that comes near you? No, it only hits ~35% to 40%, depending on the size of the volley. I think that ECM should be along the same lines - hindering the lock on and LRM effectiveness without nullifying it altogether.

e.g. It would make sense to me if ECM made the lock-on time 8 seconds, and reduced the lock-on range by a couple hundred yards, rather than it's current effects.

Edited by DaffyGKH, 06 December 2012 - 12:36 AM.

[Iron Jim]

As more people are catching on to how useful ECM is, the more it seems overpowered to me. Streaks are becoming totally useless. Just slap on some ECM and you're golden. I just watched a Raven slaughter a pair of streak cats that were working together. He just ran up to the two of them and basically reduced their mechs to walking targets.

In a pre-made, you can easily counter ECM with a good mix of builds. If you're in a PUG, you're making a mistake dropping with streaks on your mech. As more people clue into ECM, this wil lget much worse.

ECM should not turn off missiles; it should extend the lock on time.

[DaffyGKH]

Whawk, on 06 December 2012 - 12:18 AM, said:

ECM is good. And it's nothing to fix here. Use TAG and stop crying.
At least now it's interesting close combat instead of old "LRM spam-base defence-rabbit" gameplay.

Oh. I do enjoy the closeness of the mech battles, now - but that doesn't mean that the implementation of a single equipment piece should nullify entire mech types, either.

Did I already mention that I have yet to see a single LRM boat in the past 2 days?
Oh. I -did- mention that.

Edited by DaffyGKH, 06 December 2012 - 12:31 AM.

[inquisitor]

KalebFenoir, on 05 December 2012 - 11:13 PM, said:

Wouldn't reducing 800 meters by 25% render it down to a range of 600 meters instead, since it's reducing the distance you can target from by 200 meters? It doesn't make your target range 200 meters. That'd mean that the ECM is cutting your range by 75%, not 25%.

No, it's reducing to 25%, not by 25%.