2028 replies to this topic

[DeaconW]

Cyrionthewise, on 09 December 2012 - 06:52 PM, said:

Love It!!!!...Fear my Raven!!

Wow...another ECM easy-mode lover who only cares about how he benefits rather than the state of the game...what a surprise.

Edited by DeaconW, 09 December 2012 - 07:14 PM.

[USMC Iceman]

One Idea to help fix TAG would be to make it work in game with a ON/OFF switch vs push to fire. I know many of use use Macros to " hold down the fire button " for TAG and this would make it much easier to use for lower skilled players.

[USMC Iceman]

HybridTheory, on 09 December 2012 - 03:12 PM, said:

Without reading every single post here... there are definate positives and negatives to the ECM in any format.

My biggest issue with it is that in 8v8 all you see on MOST (not all...) teams is Cicada's, Ravens, Atlases, and Commandos... toss in the odd Cataphract and blam... you have an 8 man ECM squad. Some frustrations people are feeling is the exceedingly long time it took to have 8 man placed back into the game again... and then to re-introduce it along with 4 mechs that can pack ECM and it's left some people royally pissed off. I am not one of those people, however I have had more frustrating matches of late. And while I agree change is usually good I think we can have our cake and eat it too on this... personally I'd like to see the ONLY mech capable of taking ECM be the Raven. Will you see 8 man teams of all Ravens? Maybe... would be a pretty good laugh I admit but hell... I don't know much about the background and lore of Battletech, but wasn't the Raven designed to be an ECM style mech in the first place?

Anyhow I'm off to try a few new things in mechlab and see if some new strategies will work out well... I hope ECM get's tweaked but overall I'd say it is a good thing to have in game... just needs work. Oh and also... can we please please PLEASE fix some of the bugs that have been around for the last 3 months BEFORE introducing MORE new components? (The overheat power up with no damn HUD bug is probably my biggest pet peve atm... just thought I'd toss that into the mix

Should we only have 1 mech with TAG? and Only with with LRMS, AC20 ect? I don't see that having 4 mech with ECM being the win all when many of the other Mechs that don't have ECM can put out more DPS with Direct fire or LRMS.

But I agree about the bugs. They do need some major fixes with the lobby, net code and crash with Black Screens/Yellow Screens before they put out any new Colors and bobble heads.

Cyrionthewise, on 09 December 2012 - 06:52 PM, said:

Love It!!!!...Fear my Raven!!

I love how many people fear this but its the net code that makes the raven what it is. True for any Light Mech vs a Non LRM or SSRM unit to counter the net-code induced lag.

I fear the lack of team work more than any ECM unit.

DeaconW, on 09 December 2012 - 07:01 PM, said:

Wow...another ECM easy-mode lover who only cares about how he benefits rather than the state of the game...what a surprise.

But it has Sharp pointy Teeth. And we all need the holy hand grenade of antioch to kill it.

[Kaijin]

What I'm seeing, based on forum activity, is that players who get the most pleasure from toe-to-toe brawling, and would prefer not to have any strategy involved in getting from here to there, are absolutely ecstatic over the present implementation of ECM.

Those favoring a more long range game, and/or a variety of strategic problems to overcome...hate it.

I am in the latter category, and before the inevitable strawman that I only drive LRM or Streak boats, I'll state I have Jenners, Catapults, and Cataphracts in my mech bays, and I use every weapon except PPCs, and play all roles at some time or another, though mostly Striker. So a rebuttal is going to have to be something else than the tired old 'learn to aim'.

[Hammer Hands]

Going to give one final weigh in on ECM before I am done bothering with talking about this thing.

I have played and logged about 100 pug matches and more than that in 8v8.

8v8
Without the weight restriction matching system it is extremely silly. Groups that could normally function and have a chance bringing whatever mechs they wanted to pilot are now having a VERY hard time to the min-maxed 2 ECM scouts w/4 ECM atlass and 2 support mixes. That being said it is still VERY strategic and makes the matches very tough. Challenging and fun, but in its current incarnation ECM is ridiculously over powered for a 1.5 ton, 1 slot, 400k c-bill incarnation. For the protection, power, and game changing abilities it brings it honestly should be 10 tons, 5 slots, and about 10mil c-bills. That's how powerful it is.
As it stands right now, if a group of 8 players bring 'whatever they want', those who don't run an ECM build are more of a liability to their team then a true help which is NOT the way you should make anyone feel or be in a game. All of these mechs were developed with a role and capacity, and as many, many other people have stated the idea of role warfare is honestly marginal at best in 8v8 right now.
Yes, I have a decent W/L record in my 8v8 drops, but its because of good teamwork, a competent DC and good communication. Still even from someone who enjoys the challenge I personally think ECM is OP in the 8v8 field.

PUGs
After launching 100s of matches in trial mechs so I can see what new players can expect to find I can tell you this much. PUGs are damn frustrating to even think of playing. Especially in the god-awful trial builds that we all love to hate. ECM makes a even larger impact in PUGs especially as there is no balancing at all in matchmaking. Balancing by class is not effecient. and 80 ton Awesome DOES NOT equal a 100 ton Atlas. I honestly could not tell you how many matches, because I lost count of the ticks I was keeping, where one side had ZERO ECM capable mechs and the other had 2-3. Guess who won every single match? You guessed it, the side with all ECM wins every time. At least in my experience.
Even in the matches where both sides had ECM if there was a difference in how many per side it is usually (80% by my tallies) the side with more that wins. ECM in its current incarnation does wipe out entire weapons groups for PUGgers when one side is ridiculously stacked with it.
PUGs are where your casual players and hard core player mix and mingle. Casual players should be able to get the same enjoyment out of PUG matches as anyone else but when you play enough now to turn you mech and scan your drop to pray and see that little eyeball its a bit ridiculous.
So, my ascertation of ECM in its current incarnation for PUGs, over-powered especially with no counter balancing. If both teams were given even numbers of ECM then it would come down to skill and not chance.

Final Overview:
ECM is over powered in its current incarnation. This is coming from a die-hard Raven pilot. I think it severly needs to be toned down or you will see people playing NOTHING but the ECM mechs, plus the few mechs capable of quick kills against them. I don't need to give recommendations because there are literally hundreds in this thread already.
Its not broke, its just over powering right now. ECM was implimented in the TT to give an edge, not be the deciding factor. It added survivability to the mech carrying it, not invisibility (which face it, with current maps and cover forces ARE invisible), which is why it was carried by light scouts and the Command assaults. Making it take longer to kill the Command Assault while he was in a position to overview the fight, and allow scouts to slip in and out of enemy lines with a chance of actually returning to the fight.

PGI, you guys have an amazing thing going here, listen to your players as a whole please.

[Insanegun]

to those saying to limit ecm to 4 mechs Battletech has a multitude of ecm equipable mechs

[USMC Iceman]

I keep hearing about ECM vs PUGS and I agree .. It is very easy to kill Pug with any 4 man. If you work as a team. As for the Free to play mechs, Yes they do stink but are not impossible to use. Due to the at least 4 players on a pug have a chance to be a pug too.

[CrashieJ]

ECM has become a powercreep with more mechs using it as the "be all, end all", which counters EVERYTHING LOCKED within the bubble. Some say "oh then just get out of it", but when you think about it, you really cant when the bloody thing only moves 68, while the ECM guy moves above 100...

thats like using a nuke against a rifleman... its not fun for the party getting killed and it turns into a walk in the park with a lot of blood. That's an easy way to destroy a game... quick.

ECM shouldnt STOP the locks, it should slow it down or keep resetting after every shot so it forces the player with missiles to think "is the next salvo worth it?", "can I keep that lock I almost screwed myself and the team over for?", "will I be a liability?"

ECM might have a counter, but the fact that TAG and Narc has become useless for lights or mediums due to size and the fact that they take up slots needed to survive will cause people who do have ECM to run amok, while those with ECM to fail constantly unless they get ECM also, causing the cycle to continue until EVERYONE HAS ECM.

this isn't fun, it's just bad business

Edited by gavilatius, 09 December 2012 - 09:36 PM.

[Arcturious]

I'm going to add a few points to my previous comments because I've seen a disturbing trend in the suggestions from a large number of people.

To reiterate, my position is ECM is fine. If there are any changes, and I stress the "if" they must be temporary and under the full disclosure that ECM will go back to its current implementation.

This is because at the moment, many people are looking at ECM in a vacuum. I said it when people were calling for LRM nerfs, wait for ECM. The same is now true of ECM. Wait for a proper tutorial, and ELO matchmaking and finally net code fixes.

The heart of the problem people are seeing falls into two or three related categories. The first, is that lights are predominant at the moment. ECM exaggerates this effect by having lights be artificially better than their reality. This will go away with knockdowns and net code revamp, which are both on the upcoming high priority fixes.

The second is that there is an imbalance in the matchmaking that is throwing more ECM on one team than the other. I believe from my observations that this is a direct result of teams exploiting the current situation. When you get 4-5 enemy ECM versus your own, odds are that at least 3-4 of these is a group of all lights running ECM to farm PUGs. Again, this will be fixed by the ELO system.

I would hate to see knee jerk nerds to a system working as intended and exactly as canon describes.

The worst suggestions I have seen so far are extremely short sighted and yet seem to form the majority opinions.

The first is BAP. Let me phrase it like this. You have the possibility of an enemy mech taking a single 1.5t piece of equipment. Your solution is to force 8 other people to take yet another 1.5t piece of equipment to counter it? Very few mechs actually need BAP, yet most ate allowed to equip it. If you think "nobody is forcing you to take BAP" you have very little experience in competitive esports. Just try to get on a raid or PvP match in any major MMO with a DPS or equipment level and see how you fare. It's human nature, clearly seen by just how quickly the take up of ECM has been. Requiring even TAG is already pushing the envelope, although this is countered by the class requirements - IE: LRM or scouts should carry TAG already. Like AMS, it's currently a preference and balanced. BAP would not be.

The second is more concerning. Asking for other mech variants to take ECM. This is wrong on at least two levels. The first is that the roster is still being filled out. There are at least 10 more mechs on the way, some of which will be ECM capable. You don't retcon a system before it is even finished. The second is related to my BAP comment. It is hypocritical of people to complain about how ECM is too abundant and ruining the system, and then ask for even more ECM. You fall into the same trap, where every single pilot will be required to take ECM. When everyone is special, nobody is special.

Anyway, I could go on but that covers the main points. I recommend everyone just be patient and adjust. It's still a beta and things are changing at a rapid pace. A few weeks / months may seem like a long time, but seriously how many people looked at the calendar and thought "OMG, how is it Christmas already!"

Edited by Arcturious, 09 December 2012 - 11:10 PM.

[Skandrannon]

I never played TT.
I played some of the games.
I don't know the storyline.

What I do know is that something needs to chage.

I'm not sure if these changes were on purpose, but they need to be undone.
ECM will at times remove the red triangle from enemy mechs.
Why?
ECM stops the electronics.. the radar... the red triangles are for the human players to tell friend from foe.

On the same rant...
Why can't I get the red square with the letter to come up?
If the above issue with the triange was fixed, I would be able to tell if the guy in front of me was on my team or not. So, why can't I "select" the mech? It is very hard to corrdinate fire now, since you can't call out letters This means that ECM is affecting direct fire weapons. Again, it is only doing that due to what I hope were unforseen effects.

Even if you can "select" a mech under an ECM bubble, you can't get a lock until something nullifies it.

Don't change anything about the way ECM itself works, but put back the features that help the players keep track.
Leave it like that for a week, and see if people still hate ECM as it is.


I personally think it is OP right now... but I also can't seriously consider that it will be left as it is, so I'm not going to get all upset.


I do have one idea for a change to ECM... (even tho I said to leave it alone) not to how it works, but make it a destroyable item on a mech like anything else.

-Skan

[Tolkien]

Stingz, on 09 December 2012 - 06:20 PM, said:

We already have that in this era(3049) Listen-Kill Missiles

Hey, I hadn't dealt with LK missiles in tabletop, it's interesting looking from a rules point of view but the exact opposite of what I am talking about. LK missiles are hard countered by ECM which is the exact opposite of what is needed - right now ECM completely disables

BAP, NARC, Artemis, Streak, and reduces detection range by 75% and doubles lock on time, and scrambles UI.

Seriously guys for less than a large laser?

ARM missiles aren't scrambled by ECM/Jamming, they listen for the ECM/Jammer/RADAR and fly towards it. This is what is needed to counter ECM - make it glow in the dark with all that wonderful jamming signal so that the mech carrying it really does have to worry about LRMs.

[BR0WN_H0RN3T]

These ARM missile sound like just what this game needs. Toggling coukd be similar to the ECM toggle I guess.

[Spahx]

Stabbitha, on 04 December 2012 - 02:22 PM, said:

You're too used to fighting from the backlines. Even before ECM, my D-DC lives about 100m behind the frontline mechs. 3xLRM15 with artemis + 2 LPL's. Oh, some jenner is trollolololing one of your front line mechs, light him up and put 45 in him. Hey, someone spotted an awesome coming out from behind a rock at 400, LRM! Yes, you take more damage but you also deal more (rather than throwing away tonnes of ammo on people who let you get lock then duck).

Just because you can shoot at 900m (and give the target about 10 seconds of warning to find a rock to hide behind) doesn't mean you should.

totally with you...anything i can see, i can kill....

[Big Bad Wulf]

ECM works just fine.

From what I have read the underlying problem is that ECM (like LRM's and SSRM's before that) drastically forces people to change how they play and they don't like that. There are people who just wants to get out there and destroy mechs. This especailly true to people wants MWO to be a FPS instead of a Strategy Game that it is.

Perhaps they will open Solaris VII just for you people, but until then MWO is a Team game and to win everyone in the team has to work together.

ECM like any equipment is only as good as the person or team using it. In the hands of those who spent time mastering it - its deadly but not unstoppable. I have seen this happen.

To the Dev's. STOP LISTENING TO THESE IDIOTS!, concentrate on more important matters such as Networking, Game Play and Performance because these are the concerns of people (such as myself) who would gladly pour money into this game. These are very real reasons which would make me and my friends stop playing. Not ECM's which we learned to deal with like the LRM's before that.

As for your ECM it works as advertised. Keep up the good work.

[CrashieJ]

Marcus Wulf, on 10 December 2012 - 12:48 AM, said:

ECM works just fine.

From what I have read the underlying problem is that ECM (like LRM's and SSRM's before that) drastically forces people to change how they play and they don't like that. There are people who just wants to get out there and destroy mechs. This especailly true to people wants MWO to be a FPS instead of a Strategy Game that it is.

Perhaps they will open Solaris VII just for you people, but until then MWO is a Team game and to win everyone in the team has to work together.

ECM like any equipment is only as good as the person or team using it. In the hands of those who spent time mastering it - its deadly but not unstoppable. I have seen this happen.

To the Dev's. STOP LISTENING TO THESE IDIOTS!, concentrate on more important matters such as Networking, Game Play and Performance because these are the concerns of people (such as myself) who would gladly pour money into this game. These are very real reasons which would make me and my friends stop playing. Not ECM's which we learned to deal with like the LRM's before that.

As for your ECM it works as advertised. Keep up the good work.

Teamwork? In a pub room? ... until planetary domination comes along with extreme bonuses for those who hold them, we wont see people 'cooperating' for a VERY... LONG... TIME.

Once they do revamp the netcode and re-add knockdowns, maybe we'll see lights with ECMs being more of a liability. but until then they will abuse the system.

I personally want to get back at a few Ravens for passing through my body... feeling a raven inside of me just feels "oogie"

[Abivard]

I Have noticed more than a few people complain about ECM without seeming to show any real knowledge of it. The majority of the negative posts should be dismissed out of hand as whines. Considering how fast so many seem to have posted about ECM I wonder how much they tried it out before forming their opinion.

I do think counter-mode should be more powerful than disrupt-mode. How much more powerful needs to be determined.

[Magnarr]

Mild Monkey, on 09 December 2012 - 03:49 AM, said:

I would not allow for SSRM lock-on when the ECM mech is within LOS, since that would reinstall the Streak kitty as overloard once again.

That's a good point.

[Der BierVampiR]

abivard, on 10 December 2012 - 01:10 AM, said:

I Have noticed more than a few people complain about ECM without seeming to show any real knowledge of it. The majority of the negative posts should be dismissed out of hand as whines. Considering how fast so many seem to have posted about ECM I wonder how much they tried it out before forming their opinion.

I do think counter-mode should be more powerful than disrupt-mode. How much more powerful needs to be determined.

Exactly my experience. People who like to spam lrm all the time or streakcat players believe ecm is bad because its ruining there gamestyle. But they are ignoring simply that mwo is a team based game and that ecm carriers need to get hunted down before there lrm-support works again.

Before the introduction of ecm mwo was lrm-online now it is finally again a true good mechwarrior game - thanks to ecm.

[ShadowSpirit]

ECM ... completely overpowered. Not sure why we thought it was a good idea to have ECM mechs completely invisible to radar?

Hard to lock on? Sure? Immune to lock? What BattleTech are you playing?

[Tokimonatakanimekat]

The only difference ECM made for me is that I don't see INCOMING MISSILE INCOMING MISSILE INCOMING MISSILE INCOMING MISSILE INCOMING MISSILE INCOMING MISSILE INCOMING MISSILE INCOMING MISSILE INCOMING MISSILE INCOMING MISSILE INCOMING MISSILE INCOMING MISSILE INCOMING MISSILE INCOMING MISSILE INCOMING MISSILE INCOMING MISSILE INCOMING MISSILE INCOMING MISSILE INCOMING MISSILE INCOMING MISSILE INCOMING MISSILE INCOMING MISSILE INCOMING MISSILE INCOMING MISSILE INCOMING MISSILE INCOMING MISSILE INCOMING MISSILE INCOMING MISSILE anymore when I just went 200m away from spawn point. This is sooo nice that I want to give devs some Brezhnev-style hugs and kisses.