2028 replies to this topic

[DeaconW]

BarbraStriesand, on 10 December 2012 - 09:39 PM, said:

Post-ECM patch MWO is terrifically unfun with 8 man groups due to ECM cheesing.

It's more fun as a pubber or a 4 man group because there's more involved than just ECM one-upping, the way stuff used to work.

I never thought I would ever agree with anything Barbra Streisand said...but here I am, agreeing with her...

[Abivard]

Thats freaking funny! when you won't even try to win or compete you call others cheesy than offer 'whine'!?!
OMFG that's eFF'n precious.

It has brung tears to this Teufelshunden eyes.

Edited by abivard, 10 December 2012 - 11:42 PM.

[CoreHunter]

I have a question. If this ECM made it through playtesting how did true DHS not make it through? Maybe we can have true DHS only on certain mechs to make them special too. Maybe then we will not see a 4 mech variaty.

[ExAstris]

I've been refraining from posting for multiple reasons. I've not had a ton of time to play, and I wanted to really make sure I understood ECM, its effects, and how to fix it.

I'm still not in a position to give you the best answer I could if I were to play another hundred matches with/against it, but here's what I am confident in saying.

ECM is way, way, way to powerful for a piece of equipment that weighs only 1.5 tons and takes two crits.


The devs intent with this equipment piece is clear, bring in information warfare as a major pillar of MWO. The thing that went wrong with ECM is that it has 90% of all the ideas that ever made it into MWO for electronic warfare all crammed into one equipment piece.

How would I fix it?

Break ECM apart into multiple different pieces of equipment, and I have a principled way to do it. All of those cool individual benefits the GECM gives get turned into a dozen or so options for each mech's individual electronic warfare suite. Different mechs obviously having access to qualitatively and quantitatively different options.


And if PGI really wants to go the extra mile to make this the A+ implimentation we all know it could be...


Add another tab to the mechbay for each mech's electronic warfare suite. Seperate from the module system and crit/tonnage system. Let us tweak our ride's targeting computers, sensor ranges, anti-target lock ewar, anti-missile lock ewar, sensor range/vs scan angle, etc.

All the crazy stuff the ECM does here, all those great ideas for electronic warfare that are just too much when put into a single piece of equipment, break them up into various aspects of each individual mech's electronic warfare suite, and let us tweak away. Then refit GECM into that system with benefits befiting a equipment piece with the same mounting requirements as an AMS.


This would allow a much more complex interplay of ewar on the field that involves every pilot and every chasis, not just the few chasis who pray at the pillar of the ewar gods. And since every machine gets involved, this also alows for alot more opportunities to put in the appropriate balances so that being completely information suppressed requires you to not have the appropriate defensive electronics in place when your opponent has the proper offensive ones. In effect an entire paper-rock-scissors game starts being played with ewar that maps onto the gameplay already present.

Edited by ExAstris, 11 December 2012 - 12:31 AM.

[Thirteen]

Silence, on 10 December 2012 - 09:39 PM, said:

That's not a bug, screen shake was reduced across the board except for the AC/20. The gauss shouldn't rattle much anyway, it's a solid slug, not an explosive round like an autocannon shell.

Emm... explosive round or not it doesn't matter. Ak-47 does not have explosive bullets but it still shake peoples

[BR0WN_H0RN3T]

Why use beagle for 1.5T and 400k when u can just use yr eyes? Broken much?

Edited by Brown Hornet, 11 December 2012 - 12:52 AM.

[StUffz]

Thirteen, on 11 December 2012 - 12:30 AM, said:

Emm... explosive round or not it doesn't matter. Ak-47 does not have explosive bullets but it still shake peoples

An AK 47 still needs bullets with black powder while a gauss does not require this since it uses electromagnetic acceleration. Both make holes in your body depending on the shape of the ammo but the point is that Gauss has another kinetic impact compared to a black powder bullet.

I think it most problems are resolved if the ECM component is removed from D-DC. The Mech is not designed to carry one. A later Atlas version does but this is after Clan Era and pre Jihad.

Edited by StUffz, 11 December 2012 - 01:48 AM.

[Thirteen]

StUffz, on 11 December 2012 - 01:45 AM, said:

An AK 47 still needs bullets with black powder while a gauss does not require this since it uses electromagnetic acceleration. Both make holes in your body depending on the shape of the ammo but the point is that Gauss has another kinetic impact compared to a black powder bullet.

The principle of work of Gauss rifle consists in that to disperse ammunition to high speeds by means of energy of the reactor. That is replaces gunpowder. Other principles same as well as at any other firearms. So at hit of a bullet of the mech released from Gauss rifle has to shake not less than from an autocannon. It is physics.

[p4r4g0n]

La Guillotine, on 10 December 2012 - 04:27 PM, said:

Nonetheless, I don't believe the solution is to have it do less, or weight more, or cost more. That would just make it useless, or just harder to get.

I believe the solution is to introduce a weakness to using ECM. A downside which, without taking away from the ECM's effectiveness, would give the opposing team some counter-play option to go with, even if none of their mechs have ECM themselves.

How the cost vs benefit should be balanced depends as I said on how PGI wants game play to evolve and they have a broad spectrum of suggestions that can be considered. Fundamentally, we appear to both agree that something needs to be done about ECM in its current iteration.

[Killashnikov]

The impact of a gauss slug should exactly equal the recoil of firing it - same as any autocannon - the impulse of a slug regardless of how it is propelled is it's mass multiplied by its velocity. Impulse is conserved in impacts, so the amount of shake is inversely proportional to mech tonnage and directl related to the mass and velocity of the slug.

[ilyha]

When will be the next patch and would there some ESM changes?

Played 2 games on my Awesome-8R today. Don't want to play any more.

[AlanEsh]

Remove ECM stacking.
Make ECM produce the same heat as continuously firing a pair of Large Lasers.
Double the weight and slot requirements.
Fin.

[Kahna]

MBison8888, on 10 December 2012 - 10:14 PM, said:

So like i said in a previous post here in this thread: to bring back the complexity of the game, add a time limit and penalty to ECM use. Which will at least make me think twice on whether it is the right moment to flick on my ECM switch rather than the "invisible mech coming through" experience i'm having now.

Haha so true! Invisible mech coming through! I'm stealing that one. Ravens and Commandos are now behaving like Tom Cruise in Mission Impossible. "He broke into what?"

StUffz, on 11 December 2012 - 01:45 AM, said:

An AK 47 still needs bullets with black powder while a gauss does not require this since it uses electromagnetic acceleration.

I couldn't let this one pass. The Guass is essentially a bullet propelled up to speed by an electromagnetic rail. A 7.62mm bullet is propelled up to speed by the explosive reaction of the gunpowder igniting in the shell casing, there is no explosive component in the bullet. Neither have an explosive component, yet both SHOULD knock the intended target around.

It doesn't matter whether or not a round is explosive if it is striking a mech with such a powerful kinetic force it should get shaken up, especially smaller ones with less mass to absorb the impact or bigger ones with higher centers of gravity that are more easily unbalanced. Read the books and any time a Mech gets hammered by a Guass round, the pilots definitely notice (especially where it describes them being knocked down, getting spun off balance, having an arm wrenched off or a leg knocked out from under them) and it puts the fear of god into them. Guass as well as Autocannons and Missiles should knock you around to varying degrees.

Edited by Kahna, 11 December 2012 - 07:05 AM.

[Hoshi Toranaga]

Actually the current ECM we have in MWO is even better than the Angel ECM prototypes from 3060s... so we are WAY ahead of canon and TT.

I think the TT implementation of ECM would have been sufficient.

[USMC Iceman]

I wouldn't say ECM makes them invisible But I do see it harder to see Mech very far out with heat vision. But this was Nerfed due to the K2 Gauss and ER PPC boats sniping with heat vision. And now that you have ECM. You get to enjoy that " Fix " to heat vision that was melting the heads of most of the players posting about ECM and its effect today.

Use TAG to spot units and run a few ECM scouts on your team. Problem solved. Its not like only 4 players in the world get this tech to use but people act as if some how they got Stealth Fighters for the USA and we are China trying to catch up in the arms race.

PS a 1 ton TAG stops a 1.5 ton ECM from 450m out.

Edited by USMC Iceman, 11 December 2012 - 08:13 AM.

[Kemosobe]

They need to "nerf" the current ECM as well as stupidity. I loose too many games due to stupidity. Stupidity is very OP.

I really do like the ideas of giving ECM a time limit or making it generate super heat though.

EDIT: And I think I just realized the reason why SRM Cats are broken as hell. THEY HAVE 4 MISSLE HARDPOINTS!! How about rather than making ECMs break the game, you make that Catapult only have 2 missile hardpoints? And yes, I only just found out that A Cat has 4 hardpoints because I was just in a game with one that had 3 LRM20s and 1 LRM15 (which was beyond stupid). I personally do not understand how a Catapult has 4 missile hardpoints do begin with.

Edited by Kemosobe, 11 December 2012 - 09:07 AM.

[DeaconW]

USMC Iceman, on 11 December 2012 - 08:12 AM, said:

PS a 1 ton TAG stops a 1.5 ton ECM from 450m out.

That's completely disingenuous and I suspect you know it. Try holding TAG on a target in a moving battle inside 450m without getting thrashed. In fact, why don't you post a video demonstrating this amazingly successful way to defeat ECM...we would love to be educated.

[MordorSV]

As I predicted before - ECM makes game more poor and less fun.
There are only several LRMs and SSRM users left in the game.
I am one of the last, playing this kind of mechs.
LRMS are mostly on tryal mechs and SSRMs on some scouts now only.

there are two points of stupudity for this device:
- Plaing LRM or SSRM mech VS ECM is not fun after feeling hepless, when you can not take a missle lock in the bubble. No shootin - no fun - dont whant to play expencive LRM asn SSRM!
- Plaing LRM or SSRM mech in TEAM with ECM, you do not suffer form LRMs and SSRM and hardly to be targeted. It is too easy to win the helpless opponents that do not feel the team mates and do not focus fire, and can not stop you coming from distance with the LRMs rain. Too easy win and NO fun!!! before a get 1-2 kills maximum for a match, than die. Now, sometimes I am able to kill 5-6 mechs for a match.

So, ECM in the game make me feel hepless looser, or a 'baby killer'.
There are no more fun of winnig and loosing. I can not feel and say that I made my 6 kills, becouse I was the best, or they killed my mech becouse they were the best.
Only ECM makes the game now! And this is wery bad. I do not see any logical resons for this feature.
Remove it!

[Kemosobe]

I am still using my LRM Cat (founders Cat) but am slowly wanting to never touch it again. LRM, Guass, and other long range mechs are what I like to play. I prefer LRMs as that is my playstyle, but I am now being forced to not really play it as it is basically useless.

[Tolkien]

USMC Iceman, on 11 December 2012 - 08:12 AM, said:

I wouldn't say ECM makes them invisible But I do see it harder to see Mech very far out with heat vision. But this was Nerfed due to the K2 Gauss and ER PPC boats sniping with heat vision. And now that you have ECM. You get to enjoy that " Fix " to heat vision that was melting the heads of most of the players posting about ECM and its effect today.

Use TAG to spot units and run a few ECM scouts on your team. Problem solved. Its not like only 4 players in the world get this tech to use but people act as if some how they got Stealth Fighters for the USA and we are China trying to catch up in the arms race.

PS a 1 ton TAG stops a 1.5 ton ECM from 450m out.

Let's review>

ECM a 1.5 ton, 2 slot item does the following

1) Disables artemis IV bonuses
2) Disables TAG bonuses - a system that requires constant user input, skill and coordination to use.
3) Disables NARC completely - a heavier system with ammo that requires skill, and coordination to use.
5) Disables BAP completely - a system of the same mass and size that did much less.
6) Makes LRM locks take twice as long (4x longer if you start with an artemis)
7) Makes SRM locks take longer (I think)
8) Disrupts communication between friendlies making coordination/scouting much harder
9) For some reason makes it so you can't target the user and let your teammates know unless you are magically between 180m and 200m away
10) Relegates AMS - a system with 1.5 tons, 2 slots and ammo to the dustbin.

11) Can counter another ECM if you deign to push a button.


On what planet and taking what type of crazy pills is TAG counterbalancing this by sort of working.

Kemosobe, on 11 December 2012 - 09:17 AM, said:

I am still using my LRM Cat (founders Cat) but am slowly wanting to never touch it again. LRM, Guass, and other long range mechs are what I like to play. I prefer LRMs as that is my playstyle, but I am now being forced to not really play it as it is basically useless.

I suffer from inexplicable framerate drops from mid 40's down to less than 8 in close up combat. This makes running anything but support pretty sad for me.

Edited by Tolkien, 11 December 2012 - 09:25 AM.