2028 replies to this topic

[StUffz]

MordorSV, on 11 December 2012 - 09:12 AM, said:

As I predicted before - ECM makes game more poor and less fun.
There are only several LRMs and SSRM users left in the game.
I am one of the last, playing this kind of mechs.
LRMS are mostly on tryal mechs and SSRMs on some scouts now only.

there are two points of stupudity for this device:
- Plaing LRM or SSRM mech VS ECM is not fun after feeling hepless, when you can not take a missle lock in the bubble. No shootin - no fun - dont whant to play expencive LRM asn SSRM!
- Plaing LRM or SSRM mech in TEAM with ECM, you do not suffer form LRMs and SSRM and hardly to be targeted. It is too easy to win the helpless opponents that do not feel the team mates and do not focus fire, and can not stop you coming from distance with the LRMs rain. Too easy win and NO fun!!! before a get 1-2 kills maximum for a match, than die. Now, sometimes I am able to kill 5-6 mechs for a match.

So, ECM in the game make me feel hepless looser, or a 'baby killer'.
There are no more fun of winnig and loosing. I can not feel and say that I made my 6 kills, becouse I was the best, or they killed my mech becouse they were the best.
Only ECM makes the game now! And this is wery bad. I do not see any logical resons for this feature.
Remove it!

Only because LRM and SSRM having a downside at the moment does not mean the game is now poor or stupid. Sorry, but I don't want MWO to end up as a game which is decided who has the fattest mech with the largest amount of ammo to have it rain missiles. Further terrain cover should not be only the only way to avoid missiles. ECM is part of the game and tactics should be created to counter such teams. However it needs some limitations on the setup of the teams and not by nerfing technical part how ECM is and should work.

[Lupus Aurelius]

70 pages of posts...

10 pages a day since ECM implementation...

0 acknowledgement from the DEVs.

Whereas I do not expect the DEVs to directly comment on one side of the issue or other, I would expect some statement that would at least indicate that all the input has been heard and is being reviewed.

"We have read your concerns and input and are evaluating them at this time, response to the community to follow"
"Due to the vast amount of opinions and data communicated, it will take us some time to evaluate this issue"
"We have put a muzzle on Nikko Snow on this issue until we have developed a professional response"

The silence from them is deafening.

[Dawnthieve]

Quote

Disruption Mode:



1: ‘Cloaks’ friendlies within 180 meters (reduces detection distance to 25% of normal range).

2: Disrupts enemies sensors (targeting system), as well as targeting communication (sharing of targeting information) within 180 meters.

3: Disables enemy NARC

4: Disables broadcasting of TAG (if friendly is within sphere of influences); However, if you TAG a mech with ECM OUTSIDE of their sphere of influence, it allows you and your friendlies to target

5: Slow down weapon locks by 25%

6: Slow down target gathering by 25%

7: Active Probes do not gain any benefits against ECM equipped enemies

Counter Mode:

* Neutralizes 1 nearby enemy’s ECM in Disruption mode.

1: Ok. I can live with that. So the effect is oriented towards people OUTSIDE the "bubble". However this could be achieved, I don't even mind.

2: Ok. I can live with that. So the effect is oriented towards people INSIDE the "bubble". This is getting interesting, viewed technically. But still, why bother.

3: ? If u think thats important. At least right now, there's no use for it imo anyway.

4: Here's something I don't understand. The sphere of influence is what I don't grasp: According to 1 and 2 the ECM works both against systems OUTSIDE and INSIDE....illogical at best.

5: It's a TRAP! Seriously, WTF? It doesn't slow down locks, IT BLOCKS 'em! Why lie? And to be honest, this is utter crap. U can't hit those Ravens or Commandos with much else but SSRMs because of latency on laser, and combined latency and firedelay on standard SRMs. Seriously, pls rethink this approach.

6: w/e, why do I need to gather targets, if I can't broadcast nor lock on? Redundant.

7: Most. Silly. Decision. EVER. How does BAP actually identify shut down 'mechs? So I should be friggin' well able to have an actual ability to get those derp derpingtons locked on while further away than those precious 180m

Neutralize:

1: Bullsht. If it counters one, why cant it counter them all with its broadcasting field? Highly illogical, and imo would just easily fight the ECM stacking issue.

So, back into the PUGs with my Founder's Jenner, getting SSRMed to hell by the RAMBORAVEN jerks.

Edited by Dawnthieve, 11 December 2012 - 09:46 AM.

[Tolkien]

StUffz, on 11 December 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

Only because LRM and SSRM having a downside at the moment does not mean the game is now poor or stupid. Sorry, but I don't want MWO to end up as a game which is decided who has the fattest mech with the largest amount of ammo to have it rain missiles. Further terrain cover should not be only the only way to avoid missiles. ECM is part of the game and tactics should be created to counter such teams. However it needs some limitations on the setup of the teams and not by nerfing technical part how ECM is and should work.

I have to disagree fundamentally - read the post you are quoting again. ECM does not simply eliminate LRM/SSRM (what you are asserting are broken weapons systems from the game) it makes it so that the team with more/more local ECM systems is the only one that can leverage these weapons.

If LRM and SRM are the problem they should be toned down (e.g. all mechs can use AMS) (e.g. all mechs get incoming missile warnings) (e.g. even with artemis stepping behind a hill and moving breaks the lock...) not made exclusive to the side with more magic boxes.

By saying that it does not need to be changed, you are saying that it is balanced to have a 1.5 ton 2 slot piece of equipment counter

Artemis
BAP
Tag bonuses
other ECMs
LRM locks
SRM locks
general targeting info
relegate AMS to almost pointlessness
have no exploding ammo
generate no heat
cost less than a module by a factor of 15

I'm sorry, I have to strongly disagree with you on this.

[Abivard]

Ok, if you can't even wave a tag across an enemy mech at under 450 M, then this game just isn't for you, find something with auto-target and auto-aim, maybe with a beginners setting that makes them do less damage and increases your damage?

Thats what our trolls need. Or is it your aim-bot thats broke because of ECM?

[ICEFANG13]

Tell me why you would not want to add ECM to a mech please. Tell me the disadvantages of it.

[Tolkien]

Lupus Aurelius, on 11 December 2012 - 09:34 AM, said:

70 pages of posts...

10 pages a day since ECM implementation...

0 acknowledgement from the DEVs.

Whereas I do not expect the DEVs to directly comment on one side of the issue or other, I would expect some statement that would at least indicate that all the input has been heard and is being reviewed.

"We have read your concerns and input and are evaluating them at this time, response to the community to follow"
"Due to the vast amount of opinions and data communicated, it will take us some time to evaluate this issue"
"We have put a muzzle on Nikko Snow on this issue until we have developed a professional response"

The silence from them is deafening.

Even though I have been very vocal in my disbelief that they thought ECM was `good to go` in its current form, the damage is done at this point.

Hopefully the devs are going to take a very long slow look at what went wrong, and resolve not to adjust game balance with a sledgehammer ever again.

Alternately...

I think I'm going to need a bigger ECM....

[Tolkien]

abivard, on 11 December 2012 - 09:42 AM, said:

Ok, if you can't even wave a tag across an enemy mech at under 450 M, then this game just isn't for you, find something with auto-target and auto-aim, maybe with a beginners setting that makes them do less damage and increases your damage?

Thats what our trolls need. Or is it your aim-bot thats broke because of ECM?

I think us trolls are more riled up by how people can call a 1.5 ton, 2 slot piece of equipment that counters

Artemis
BAP
Tag bonuses
other ECMs
LRM locks
SRM locks
interferes with general targeting info
relegates AMS to almost pointlessness
has no exploding ammo
generates no heat
cost less than a module by a factor of 15

... 'balanced'.

Is a bit much.

I mean, granted you can say the game 'needed it' but if you think the above is a fair deal I have a bridge to sell you.

Edited by Tolkien, 11 December 2012 - 09:54 AM.

[StUffz]

But that is how ECMs are working small and effective. Why do you think that ECM equipment was not viable in 3025? becausy it was bulky and hitting critical zones tend effect regular board electronics?

If you look today, mobile ECM is not by that heavy as you assume.

I only have a German page where you can find samples of ECM which are used in todays modern warfare however depending on your vehicle it does not weigh much.

http://de.wikipedia....nma%C3%9Fnahmen

Check yourself how much a ECM can weigh.

[Tolkien]

abivard, on 11 December 2012 - 09:42 AM, said:

Ok, if you can't even wave a tag across an enemy mech at under 450 M, then this game just isn't for you, find something with auto-target and auto-aim, maybe with a beginners setting that makes them do less damage and increases your damage?

Thats what our trolls need. Or is it your aim-bot thats broke because of ECM?

Oh forgot to mention - your tag doesn't work under 450m.... it works between 450m (max....) and 180m... below 180m you are in the ECM bubble and you can't relay TAG data..

Quoth the Raven "Working as intended...."

Edited by Tolkien, 11 December 2012 - 09:58 AM.

[MordorSV]

StUffz, on 11 December 2012 - 09:30 AM, said:

Only because LRM and SSRM having a downside at the moment does not mean the game is now poor or stupid. Sorry, but I don't want MWO to end up as a game which is decided who has the fattest mech with the largest amount of ammo to have it rain missiles. Further terrain cover should not be only the only way to avoid missiles. ECM is part of the game and tactics should be created to counter such teams. However it needs some limitations on the setup of the teams and not by nerfing technical part how ECM is and should work.

Teams setup will not save the situation.
The game now depends ony on this ECM device...

LRMs and SSRM are not limited - thay are eliminated! - the one can not shoot at all.
Or to much powered up - i can personnaly have 5-6 mechs kills when ECM is in my team.

there are no balance and no fun for Missle boats any more!
i do not see any good things form this ECM. It spoils the mood and gameplay to missle users.
And does not make the balance as expected (5-6 kills per match in missle boat vs 1-2 kills in previous times).

There are no team at all, as long as you can not see the team members and can not see team targets.
And no fun that you cant shoot!

[Shade Cido]

abivard, on 11 December 2012 - 09:42 AM, said:

Ok, if you can't even wave a tag across an enemy mech at under 450 M, then this game just isn't for you, find something with auto-target and auto-aim, maybe with a beginners setting that makes them do less damage and increases your damage?

Thats what our trolls need. Or is it your aim-bot thats broke because of ECM?

This from someone who has obviously never used an LRM or Tagged a target. Its not a case of 'waving a TAG' at a Mech....you have to keep that laser on the Mech during the whole flight time of the missile salvo, which can be up to 10-20 seconds depending on the distance of the launcher.

This is the usual response of 'Its balanced and it doesnt matter that they've nerfed 2 weapon systems into oblivion with a OP piece of equipment with no drawbacks....its 300m then Pew pew. All is well.'

Like DeaconS posted earlier...

Quote

why don't you post a video demonstrating this amazingly successful way to defeat ECM...we would love to be educated

Edited by Shade Cido, 11 December 2012 - 10:15 AM.

[Suko]

<Copied from a locked thread>


Alright, I find it difficult to call this an "exploit", but it certainly is a abusing the ECM system. 3 times last night I encountered the same 4 man team where each member one was running an ECM Raven equipped with SSRMs and med or large lasers. They would all scout along the perimeter to capture the base in each game. 4 mechs on base means it can drop the base to 0 health in ~30 seconds without contest. And they can skirt around most maps undetected thanks to their speed and ECM making it impossible to target them unless it is visual.

In all three games, a friend and I both went to stop them at our base, but there was little we could do. We were too busy dying and fighting off 4-5 lights to tell our PUG team what was happening and we couldn't use anything but direct-fire weapons due to ECM jamming. They were running all around us like a bunch of rabid shrews. Combine all this with the lag shield most fast mechs get and we both got taken out within seconds from their combined SSRM and laser barrages.

I know what's going to happen: Some are going to harp about how terrible of a player my friend and I are and how easy it is to counter a situation like this. To that, all I can say is that I hope you face this group under these circumstances for yourself. YOU-WILL-DIE. Unless you're group is also running 4 ECM mechs to counter their 4 ECM mechs, you will be at a huge disadvantage.

I think that scenarios like this illustrate the need for a better rock, paper, scissors mechanic regarding ECM, BAP, and TAG. Right now, ECM beats ECM, TAG is pathetic, and BAP doesn't do anything at all against ECM. They need these three pieces of equipment to counter each other in different ways to keep the game asymmetrically balanced. As it is presently, there's no real way to beat a group like this unless you are fortunate to have the majority of your team there to fight them off with sheer firepower/numbers, or you also have 4 anti-ECM mechs.

[tdswim]

ShadowVFX, on 11 December 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

I think that scenarios like this illustrate the need for a better rock, paper, scissors mechanic regarding ECM, BAP, and TAG. Right now, ECM beats ECM, TAG is pathetic, and BAP doesn't do anything at all against ECM. They need these three pieces of equipment to counter each other in different ways to keep the game asymmetrically balanced. As it is presently, there's no real way to beat a group like this unless you are fortunate to have the majority of your team there to fight them off with sheer firepower/numbers, or you also have 4 anti-ECM mechs.

If ECM is going to stay as is, I definitely want to see BAP get a boost. I've seen the scenario described play out several times and it is completely miserable.

[Gremlich Johns]

One thing to point out regarding electronic countermeasures based on my own real world experience with such devices/capabilities.

1) if it is on, nobody within the ECM bubble sees anything without - not even your teammates unless their radar or other electromagnetic-capable sensors work on a frequency range different from the one you are jamming. (I do not think this the case in MWO)

2) when I say "not even your teammates", I mean anybody on your team who is trying to lock on to a target within or without the ECM coverage bubble - it cannot be done unless you have a system (like LOS) which is not effected by the ECM barrage jamming signal.

3) ECM is not a cloak. Given time (measured in seconds), the ECM emitter can be precisely found and neutralized.

4) A PPC hit on a mech carrying ECM should disrupt/overload the ECM suite for some seconds (like 10-15) or destroyed if hit with more than one PPC within seconds of each other, unless the ECM suite is hardened with something analogous to the CASE for explosive ammo.

5) ECM should be permitted to be turned off

On the side issue of BAP, if you have it on, it allows you to acquire and classify your targets more efficiently and at greater range, it also allows your opponents to acquire you just as quickly (but only if they are paying attention). That is the way BAP is supposed to work in BT.

Edited by Gremlich Johns, 11 December 2012 - 10:30 AM.

[Abivard]

Tabletop canon codes in MWO definitely fall into the "More of what you call guidelines than actual rules" categories.

Not until Clan tech was it possible to 'change weapon loadouts'
Mechs have variants because its what the factory in the IS House could build with the parts they could make or buy, sometimes they even had notable design or quality flaws.

Shaking dice was the only real motor-skill involved, mostly you had all the time needed to make a decision you could really see the whole map and everything on it even if your 'mechpilots' didn't. your pilot skill and gunnery skill were paper based numbers. your spotting skill was the same.

Other features are and will be added that effect ECM, drop matchmaking and many other features. Open your minds and work with the rest of us don't be Obtuse, ignorant doomsayers about beta.



If ECM counter strength was stronger than disrupt that might be a good thing.

[Tolkien]

StUffz, on 11 December 2012 - 09:55 AM, said:

But that is how ECMs are working small and effective. Why do you think that ECM equipment was not viable in 3025? becausy it was bulky and hitting critical zones tend effect regular board electronics?

If you look today, mobile ECM is not by that heavy as you assume.

I only have a German page where you can find samples of ECM which are used in todays modern warfare however depending on your vehicle it does not weigh much.

http://de.wikipedia....nma%C3%9Fnahmen

Check yourself how much a ECM can weigh.

Battletech has numerous technologies which are worse than their real world counterparts. LRMs for example have terrible range. On the tabletop it was something like 1km and they were unguided, which is something that is inferior to even WWII rocketry.

The germans had a better guided rocket in 1943 called the wasserfall than this game had in 3055.

[Tolkien]

abivard, on 11 December 2012 - 10:34 AM, said:

Open your minds and work with the rest of us don't be Obtuse, ignorant doomsayers about beta.

Sorry Abivard, but we have to state our beliefs strongly - there are a great number of ignorant closed minded folk who think that

Quote

Ok, if you can't even wave a tag across an enemy mech at under 450 M, then this game just isn't for you, find something with auto-target and auto-aim, maybe with a beginners setting that makes them do less damage and increases your damage?

Thats what our trolls need. Or is it your aim-bot thats broke because of ECM?

we are just upset because our 'aim bots' broke.

I can't find the original poster of that arrogant and ignorant flame, but I'll let you know if I do.


That said, I do agree that ECM is working as intended since it is perfectly reasonable to have a 1.5 ton 2 slot piece of equipment counter

Artemis
BAP
Tag bonuses (and the whole system inside of 180m....)
NARC - a system which takes more space, weighs more, requires real coordination and skill and has ammo.
other ECMs
LRM locks
SRM locks
general targeting info
relegate AMS to almost pointlessness
have no exploding ammo
generate no heat
cost less than a module by a factor of 15


Wait... no.... that is insane....

Edited by Tolkien, 11 December 2012 - 11:14 AM.

[Corvus Antaka]

Tolkien, on 11 December 2012 - 10:47 AM, said:

Sorry Abivard, but we have to state our beliefs strongly - there are a great number of ignorant closed minded folk who think that



we are just upset because our 'aim bots' broke.

I can't find the original poster of that arrogant and ignorant flame, but I'll let you know if I do.


That said, I do agree that ECM is working as intended since it is perfectly reasonable to have a 1.5 ton 2 slot piece of equipment counter

Artemis
BAP
Tag bonuses (and the whole system inside of 180m....)
NARC - a system which takes more space, weighs more, requires real coordination and skill and has ammo.
other ECMs
LRM locks
SRM locks
general targeting info
relegate AMS to almost pointlessness
have no exploding ammo
generate no heat
cost less than a module by a factor of 15


Wait... no.... that is insane....

you forgot to mention that a 360 degree module costs 6 million but an ECM only costs 400K

EDIt...no...you didnt! lol! my bad

Edited by Colonel Pada Vinson, 11 December 2012 - 11:20 AM.

[Waverider]

PPC should affect the ECM. As the PPC have EMP, when you hit a MEch with ECM the ECM should fail for some seconds.