2028 replies to this topic

[Tolkien]

Colonel Pada Vinson, on 11 December 2012 - 11:18 AM, said:

you forgot to mention that a 360 degree module costs 6 million but an ECM only costs 400K

No, no, see I said it costs 1/15 of a module - it's a long list of features that the jank ECM gets so I'm not surprised that one got lost in there

[DeaconW]

Kemosobe, on 11 December 2012 - 09:17 AM, said:

I am still using my LRM Cat (founders Cat) but am slowly wanting to never touch it again. LRM, Guass, and other long range mechs are what I like to play. I prefer LRMs as that is my playstyle, but I am now being forced to not really play it as it is basically useless.

Your playstyle has been deemed unfit by the OP ECM crowd...adapt or go home! <\sarcasm>

[DeaconW]

Tolkien, on 11 December 2012 - 09:24 AM, said:

I suffer from inexplicable framerate drops from mid 40's down to less than 8 in close up combat. This makes running anything but support pretty sad for me.

B'gone with you then...the OP ECM crowd does not believe you deserve a role in this version of MW (despite the fire support role being prevalent in all BT/MW history...) <\sarcasm>

Edited by DeaconW, 11 December 2012 - 11:38 AM.

[DeaconW]

Dawnthieve, on 11 December 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

So, back into the PUGs with my Founder's Jenner, getting SSRMed to hell by the RAMBORAVEN jerks.

Dude...switch into a Commado 2D...relatively inexpensive to get into, totally OP and tons of fun to drive. I normally drive a Jenner as my light but the Commando 2D is a decent substitute to farm C-Bills until PGI fixes ECM...be like me....GO COMMANDO!

[DeaconW]

abivard, on 11 December 2012 - 09:42 AM, said:

Ok, if you can't even wave a tag across an enemy mech at under 450 M, then this game just isn't for you, find something with auto-target and auto-aim, maybe with a beginners setting that makes them do less damage and increases your damage?

Again...show me a video with this effective use of TAG you speak of...in an 8v8 context pls. Ball is in your court...

Quote

Thats what our trolls need. Or is it your aim-bot thats broke because of ECM?

Really? That type of implication is over-the-top and simply uncalled for here. The honorable person would show proof of someone on the "we'd like ECM to work correctly" crowd using an aimbot or apologize. Again, ball is in your court.

Edited by DeaconW, 11 December 2012 - 11:58 AM.

[DeaconW]

ShadowVFX, on 11 December 2012 - 10:08 AM, said:

<Copied from a locked thread>


Alright, I find it difficult to call this an "exploit", but it certainly is a abusing the ECM system. 3 times last night I encountered the same 4 man team where each member one was running an ECM Raven equipped with SSRMs and med or large lasers. They would all scout along the perimeter to capture the base in each game. 4 mechs on base means it can drop the base to 0 health in ~30 seconds without contest. And they can skirt around most maps undetected thanks to their speed and ECM making it impossible to target them unless it is visual.

In all three games, a friend and I both went to stop them at our base, but there was little we could do. We were too busy dying and fighting off 4-5 lights to tell our PUG team what was happening and we couldn't use anything but direct-fire weapons due to ECM jamming. They were running all around us like a bunch of rabid shrews. Combine all this with the lag shield most fast mechs get and we both got taken out within seconds from their combined SSRM and laser barrages.

I know what's going to happen: Some are going to harp about how terrible of a player my friend and I are and how easy it is to counter a situation like this. To that, all I can say is that I hope you face this group under these circumstances for yourself. YOU-WILL-DIE. Unless you're group is also running 4 ECM mechs to counter their 4 ECM mechs, you will be at a huge disadvantage.

I think that scenarios like this illustrate the need for a better rock, paper, scissors mechanic regarding ECM, BAP, and TAG. Right now, ECM beats ECM, TAG is pathetic, and BAP doesn't do anything at all against ECM. They need these three pieces of equipment to counter each other in different ways to keep the game asymmetrically balanced. As it is presently, there's no real way to beat a group like this unless you are fortunate to have the majority of your team there to fight them off with sheer firepower/numbers, or you also have 4 anti-ECM mechs.

Sorry, dude...that might have been me and 3 friends...it's SOP for me right now. <sheepish grin> But I plan on doing it again every day to prove my point until they patch ECM!

[ShadowThunder77]

ECM needs to be toned down some cause as it is it removes some of the varity from the battlefield by making missles seem less useful to the skilled and makes missles seem useless to people that have relied on them too much Pre-ECM

[Rakash]

tdswim, on 11 December 2012 - 10:21 AM, said:

If ECM is going to stay as is, I definitely want to see BAP get a boost. I've seen the scenario described play out several times and it is completely miserable.

That's because they made ECM do WAY more than it's supposed to do.  BAP, TAG, NARC, and Artemis are supposed to enhance the capabilities of basic equipment (weapons and sensors).  ECM is supposed to cancel those E-war components AND NOTHING ELSE, making your 1.5 tons cancel all the tons of Artemis, BAP, and TAG the enemy is carrying in your 180m sphere.  That's what ECM is, the equalizer.

Valid things it does now include blocking enemy E-war components, blocking targeting data sharing between enemy units within/through the ECM sphere (as these functions mimic C3 components which are SPECIFICALLY COUNTERED by ECM) and completely hiding shut down battlemechs within the area of effect.

Invalid functions include preventing target locks on friendly units in the area of effect (Battlemech sensor suites are not entirely disrupted by ECM and may therefore acquire and lock targets in LOS, regardless of location relative to the AoE) and preventing targeting data sharing between enemy units not inside to AoE whose line of effect does not pass through the AoE.

The point of ECM in paper-scissors-rock is hammer.  It doesn't win the game, it cancels the game and puts us back to basics.

Edited by Rakash, 11 December 2012 - 12:24 PM.

[Tennex]

Why would they not use a stance neutral thread but instead a positive ECM thread... anyway it does way too much for way too little. i like the game dynamics but its just not right for how much it costs

[Latvanis]

Untill some 1 shows me in a video 8 vs 8 battle ,that with atleast two LRM boats (Dedicated atleast 60 % of weponary tons for LRMs and ammo) and two scouts (dont care. Meds or heavys ,just not Assults or Cataphract) (If there is less than bouth of two ,then it an assult brawler army and nothing more) ,not using COUNTER ECM Because then it will beat the point and proove that its a ECM war (Who have more ECMs) not skills, team work and tactics game. (Dont get me wrong ECM it self is allowed) Only using TAGs to share enemy EMC bubbled target information to LRM boats. I dont care if you win or loose ,i just want to see if its even possible and viable to put so much effort to use LRMs. If not then ECM is ower powered. After all if you are succusseful ,then im shure you can beat 8 Atlases with LRM support. Because you guys are the ones telling us about TAG being an effective counter to ECM... And LRMs counter Atlases pretty nicely. Atleast they did it before. And LRM should be the counter for assults ,NOT Light mechs
Only then it will proove me and other people that what you guys are saying is the truth about ECM balance. And we are ones who suck at this game ,not because we are just some bot's shooting auot aimed rockets.
After all there are plenty of videos that shows current gameplay and i have playd enough 8 vs 8 with out seeing any LRMs.
I for real want to see you guys pool it off! No joke.

Edited by D1irte, 11 December 2012 - 12:39 PM.

[Snuglninja]

We had a counter to Lrm before this ecm crap it was called a light mech running up to it and picking it apart because it had no lasers. And can someone tell me why an mech with ecm can lock missiles in a dog fight while a mech without it can't or am suppose to bring an ecm mech to the fight?

I thought Lrm needed spotters before ecm? Ecm prevents locking so to say now it takes teamwork to spot for Lrm is invalid.

I personally thought Lrm brought a feel of realism to the game that seems gone now.

[Ranger207]

StUffz, on 11 December 2012 - 09:55 AM, said:

But that is how ECMs are working small and effective. Why do you think that ECM equipment was not viable in 3025? becausy it was bulky and hitting critical zones tend effect regular board electronics?

If you look today, mobile ECM is not by that heavy as you assume.

I only have a German page where you can find samples of ECM which are used in todays modern warfare however depending on your vehicle it does not weigh much.

http://de.wikipedia....nma%C3%9Fnahmen

Check yourself how much a ECM can weigh.

TacOps, when fluffing satillites, says to remember that BTech has fusion engines. Imagine how much power, and thus interference and ECM burn-through, you can put out with a few megawatts of power. You need a lot of metal for all that power...

[Gremlich Johns]

Snuglninja, on 11 December 2012 - 12:49 PM, said:

We had a counter to Lrm before this ecm crap it was called a light mech running up to it and picking it apart because it had no lasers. And can someone tell me why an mech with ecm can lock missiles in a dog fight while a mech without it can't or am suppose to bring an ecm mech to the fight?

I thought Lrm needed spotters before ecm? Ecm prevents locking so to say now it takes teamwork to spot for Lrm is invalid.

I personally thought Lrm brought a feel of realism to the game that seems gone now.

You are absolutely right in wondering why an ECM vehicle can lock on - it should not be able to while ECM is on
http://en.wikipedia....i/Radar_jamming

[Pygar]

Oh nice...I finally found the constructive comments about ECM thread!

The current game meta is working good in matches with good team play- I love that scout mechs are actually getting used... in past MW games people only used scouts when they were forced to...now they are too useful to be ignored!

I think the only tweaks that need to be made are a buff to TAG and maybe NARC so spotter scouts can be a more helpful, and make artillery/aerospace strikes part of the game (Command Module?) so that we have AOEs to help bust up ECM/DPS turtles or to help harass weak side base rushing.

[DeaconW]

Pygar, on 11 December 2012 - 12:54 PM, said:

Oh nice...I finally found the constructive comments about ECM thread!

The current game meta is working good in matches with good team play...

Team Play...I don't think that term means what you think it means....

[StUffz]

Ranger207, on 11 December 2012 - 12:49 PM, said:

TacOps, when fluffing satillites, says to remember that BTech has fusion engines. Imagine how much power, and thus interference and ECM burn-through, you can put out with a few megawatts of power. You need a lot of metal for all that power...

The own pilot will be burned therefore you can't recklessly use ECM with megawatts of power

However I just wanted to point out that it is not an impossible idea that ECM equipment weighs one and a half ton and only has one critical slot. It is just reasonable less if an heavy support or commando mechs are losing weapon slots because the ECM weighs as much as a PPC and requires a slot of a LRM20. That's almost stoneage...

[Latvanis]

StUffz, on 11 December 2012 - 12:58 PM, said:

The own pilot will be burned therefore you can't recklessly use ECM with megawatts of power

However I just wanted to point out that it is not an impossible idea that ECM equipment weighs one and a half ton and only has one critical slot. It is just reasonable less if an heavy support or commando mechs are losing weapon slots because the ECM weighs as much as a PPC and requires a slot of a LRM20. That's almost stoneage...

But then you sacrifice a lot for effective counter to LRMs. And to effectivly counter ,is another ECM ,wich must be nerby. So some 1 else too need to sacrifice a lot just to counter. Dosent that makes sense?

[Tolkien]

D1irte, on 11 December 2012 - 01:03 PM, said:

But then you sacrifice a lot for effective counter to LRMs. And to effectivly counter ,is another ECM ,wich must be nerby. So some 1 else too need to sacrifice a lot just to counter. Dosent that makes sense?

My good fellow, it is not only an LRM counter... it is a 1.5 ton 2 slot piece of equipment that can counter

Artemis
BAP
Tag bonuses (and the whole system inside of 180m)
NARC - a system which takes more space, weighs more, requires real coordination and skill and has ammo.
other ECMs
LRM locks
SRM locks
general targeting info
relegate AMS to almost pointlessness
have no exploding ammo
generate no heat
cost less than a module by a factor of 15.

Frankly I think that if you have ECM turned on, missiles should home in on the radiation you are spitting out - just like an ARM missile http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Anti-radiation_missile

Quote

Several surface-to-surface missiles, like the P-700 Granit, P-500 Bazalt, MM40 Exocet and OTO Melara Teseo include a home-on-jam capability wherein the receiver component of their active radar seeker is used to home in on enemy radar, ECM or communications. This makes these missiles significantly harder to defeat with ECM and distraction countermeasures, and makes the use of semi-active missiles against them dangerous.

Remember: If the enemy is in range, so are you has an electronic analogue - 'If you are putting out enough energy to jam someone, you are putting out more than enough to be homed in on*'

*Unless you know what 'FHSS' stands for without looking it up, you probably don't know enough to dispute this intelligently.

Edited by Tolkien, 11 December 2012 - 01:20 PM.

[Abivard]

The utter lack of reading comprehension as well as abysmal depths of ignorance displayed by the ranters here is almost beyond belief.

Not my function to educate you on how to play.

People that really are playing this game see through your smoke and mirrors and flashing lights.
The dev's are no where as stupid as you seem to assume they are.


ECM counter should be a little bit stronger than disrupt.

[Rhent]

ECM needs its group prevention of targeting changed to increased target lock +50% time AND it needs to reduce detection range to 500M. ECM should not prevent TAG/NARC from working. If the Developers want to continue the Streak Nerf, then allow streaks to dumb fire in ECM fields, ie they can fire without lock or make it when the ECM field is present no Streaks can fire period including the mechs who have ECM equipped. I'm bored out of my head running a 3L + ECM + 2 SSRM's using it to kill enemy lights with ECM. Lame comes to mind, extremely lame.

As it stands now, every day I see more and more Commandos, Ravens, Cicadas and Atlases in groups because they are leveling those chassis up to run their ECM builds. So far I have played the future of the game with 4 ECM lights (me in a 3L) on my team vs 2 ECM lights on the other team and for the most part everyone was running light mechs. It was one of the boringest and quickest games I've ever played. A good game goes almost the full time, requiring you to think, but with ECM being this ridiculously implemented, who needs to think. Just bring your ECM lights w/ Streaks and hunt and kill the other ECM's. ECM as it was implemented has greatly contributed to the Hawkenizationization of a Battletech Game. Continue with this line of development at your own peril for maintaining your subscriber base. You can't have a game where 65% of the people are running ECM because they have to remain competitive.