116 replies to this topic

[Jeff K Notagoon]

If you have a problem with the rate of fire being so short... quit pressing the fire button so often?

[MaddMaxx]

Quote

"and then [allowed the players to fire their weapons at] tripled the rate of fire"

Fixed that for ya.

I know, let's not play MechWarrior Online, let's play DPS Online. Or better yet, how about C-Bills/hour Online.

The pace is set. Learn to deal with it...

[MustrumRidcully]

Jeff K Notagoon, on 05 December 2012 - 09:43 AM, said:

If you have a problem with the rate of fire being so short... quit pressing the fire button so often?

Clever idea. How can I convince te other guy that is using guns that have the same damage output without the heat problem to also shoot slower, so it's all fair?

It wasn't a balance problem if every weapon had the same issue. But that's not true. You can fire your Quad AC/5 Cataphract until you run out of ammo, but you can't fire your Dual PPC build that long.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 05 December 2012 - 10:56 AM.

[Garth Erlam]

That's a problem with the PPC, not the heat system.

[WardenWolf]

Garth Erlam, on 05 December 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

That's a problem with the PPC, not the heat system.

Glad to see you are still checking in on this thread, Garth! Did you see my question to you from this morning? It ended up as the last post on Page 3 I think:

http://mwomercs.com/...ost__p__1551554

[MustrumRidcully]

Garth Erlam, on 05 December 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

That's a problem with the PPC, not the heat system.

Isn't that just semantics?

We hopefully now all know why weapons are so out of whack - it is because you treated the table top stats as damage and heat values per shot,r ather than as damage and heat values per 10 seconds. This inflated the heat cost of all weapons, hitting high heat weapons harder than low heat weapons. The weapon stats from the table top were balanced around the idea that these weapons dealt their damage and heat values over a 10 second turn, taking into account the cost to sink heat. That allowed it to balance low heat and high heat weapon - you simply added weight to the low heat weapon equal in worth the weight in heat sinks required for the high heat weapon would need. But if you allow a weapon to fire faster, the weapon's base weight doesn't change, but the cost of its heat increases.

SO I think it is a problem of your heat system, but you don't necessarily change your heat system, you can adapt the problematic weapons. But it would have, originally, about 4+ months back when people first brought htis topic up during Closed Beta, fixed it on a more fundamental level.

And if you're so aware of the PPC problem, why has it taken a hotfix to nerf the UAC by increasing its jam rate but over several months after complaining about the PPC, no change has been made? Or is it simply just because it'S better to have an underpowered weapon than an overpowered weapon? I could see that, but why tweak impulse values before you tweak heat values?


Welll, what's done is done, but I can't get quite over it, I must admit. It just seems that there could have been such a more beautiful approach to the whole deal and you probably would had the game in a better state already months ago, only making minor tweaks, rather than having people complain for months that the PPC and ER PPC are underpowered.

Edited by MustrumRidcully, 05 December 2012 - 11:23 AM.

[CryonicSuspension]

I posted this delicious thread in the
CAREFUL WITH YOUR NERFS, IT'S GOING WRONG

http://mwomercs.com/...ts-going-wrong/

[Joseph Mallan]

Hurnn, on 04 December 2012 - 01:57 PM, said:

I'll throw my name in to the pile of people have been saying the heat system is broken and the biggest cause of weapon imbalance.

I too will stand up. I didn't think it was all that bad till I tried using the Awesome-9M .That ride cannot be used as intended.

Gauss I applaud for finally getting the Explosive portion re instated. it was an integral part of what made it a problem to have,

[HighTest]

I posted this earlier. Guess I should have tacked it on to this thread if I knew it existed then.

http://mwomercs.com/...56-my-epiphany/

[Joseph Mallan]

Garth Erlam, on 05 December 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

That's a problem with the PPC, not the heat system.

if you mean that 2 PPCs cannot fire constantly but ACs can. You are wrong sir. Using the Awesome-9M as my example, if I fire 2 of my ERPPCs (30 heat) I should NEVER overheat with 20 Double Sinks... NEVER. Your heat sink cycle time is not working correctly for this game's "turn". The heat system u you are simulating failed with the original Solaris rules. With movement being continuous a turn is fire, recharge & vent. 4 seconds is as long as a turn should be. or a quarter second longer than the longest weapon cyclic rate. lasers with their short cyclic rate would still run hot, Ballistics not so much.

[Dukov Nook]

Abrahms, on 04 December 2012 - 03:27 PM, said:

http://www.thefreedi....com/hotchpotch

http://encyclopedia....com/Hodge+podge

[aspect]

aspect, on 04 December 2012 - 09:37 PM, said:

I was going to read the OP and try to contribute to this thread but I started tuning out when the "because tabletop" argument came into play.

Also, my K2 has 2 PPC's and 2 Gauss Rifles. Mind blown? I think so.

Abrahms, on 04 December 2012 - 09:39 PM, said:

means either A)you have no ammo or B ) when you fire the PPCs they never cool off.

Astroniomix, on 04 December 2012 - 09:58 PM, said:

That and he probably only has something silly like..... 1 ton of ammo.

40rds of gauss ammo, 18.8 heatsink capacity, so it takes about 10.5 seconds for alphas to cool off. If you can't figure out how to use a mech that can do pinpoint 50dmg alphas out to like 800m every 10.5 seconds over the course of 3.5 minutes (and can keep shooting gauss while it cools, if so required), then I'm not sure what to tell you.

I feel like there's a lot of people on this forum who should spend some more time trying out new stuff in the mechlab and trying to adopt a playstyle that fits it. Or, you know, keep being ignorant and make fun of people on the forums, that works too I guess...

Edited by aspect, 05 December 2012 - 12:06 PM.

[WardenWolf]

aspect, on 05 December 2012 - 11:44 AM, said:

40rds of gauss ammo, 18.8 heatsink capacity, so it takes about 9-10 seconds for alphas to cool off. If you can't figure out how to use a mech that can do pinpoint 50dmg alphas out to like 800m every 10 seconds over the course of 3.5 minutes (and can keep shooting gauss while it cools, if so required), then I'm not sure what to tell you.

30 tons for dual GR
4 tons of ammo
14 tons of PPCs
----
48 tons of weapons... on a 65 ton mech. What engine / armor are you running? I had to strip down armor, engine speed, and secondary weapons on a friend's Gaussapult that I was helping him make, but it sounds like you have either next to no speed or a fragile 'glass cannon' on your hands, given the tonnage allotment.

[aspect]

200xl (49.8kph in mechlab), 128pts of armor. If it gets into a fight, it dies.

Armor distribution is:
Head 18
CT 58
CT rear 1
RT/LT 13 each
RT/LT rear 1 each
RA/LA 8 each
RL/LL 6 each

I'm going to have to start recording more matches...it's either hilariously awesome or hilariously bad. If you've played a K2 much though, you'll notice that generally in a PUG game if you get a light mech strafing around you as you try to snipe from the back, you're going to die anyway. Also, if you get into a brawl, you're going to die anyway. So why waste the armor? I'd rather be oneshotting commandos and pretty much anything else that's taken a few LRM salvos. 58 in the CT lets me soak up sniper hits almost as well as a full-armored K2 (good luck hitting anything but the cockpit or CT from range), so I'm good there.

Yep, it's not for everybody and it's extremely situational. Luckily, the situation where it shines is in pretty much every match. Give it a try, you might be impressed...dangerous playstyles can be fun. Just don't get hit with anything

Edited by aspect, 05 December 2012 - 12:03 PM.

[HighTest]

Huh. I think you may have kicked my behind with that mech once. I remember wondering what dropship landed on me. Of course, you were probably plenty far away, so I saw nothing expect the "Aspect has killed HighTest" message.

That actually explains a lot.

[WardenWolf]

aspect, on 05 December 2012 - 11:59 AM, said:

Yep, it's not for everybody and it's extremely situational. Luckily, the situation where it shines is in pretty much every match. Give it a try, you might be impressed...dangerous playstyles can be fun. Just don't get hit with anything

Very interesting! Most of the people I know who use Gauss rifles (except for myself) are moving away from them due to the last patch... and the ones I know who ran Gaussapults both like long-range best, but have also pulled off some pretty amazing up-close fights against other mechs. I may link them to this design, though, so they can see what options there are for increasing front-loaded damage

[Schlaung]

Posting fail, yet again.

[aspect]

If you have the reflexes and aim to headshot people with gauss while brawling, then this is probably not the direction to go in. I am unfortunately not one of those people, so I figured pressing the ranged advantage was a better bet.

I've also had a couple good matches where I've explained the situation to my team, and have had a personal atlas meatshield for the entire game. Duck out from behind atlas, alpha at something about 150m away, duck back behind atlas...typically both pilots really clean up when the scoreboard shows up at the end.

Also you owe me one santa atlas per person that steals my patented design.

HighTest, on 05 December 2012 - 12:05 PM, said:

Huh. I think you may have kicked my behind with that mech once. I remember wondering what dropship landed on me. Of course, you were probably plenty far away, so I saw nothing expect the "Aspect has killed HighTest" message.

That actually explains a lot.

Hahahaha, sounds like it made an impression.

Edited by aspect, 05 December 2012 - 12:13 PM.

[Abrahms]

Garth Erlam, on 05 December 2012 - 11:00 AM, said:

That's a problem with the PPC, not the heat system.

I cant choose to hold my fire because the enemy took a mech that doesnt have heat issues. He therefore shoots on cooldown.

DPS isnt everything, but its huge in a game with doubled armor. Dual gauss with 8 tons of ammo will trump triple PPC anyday because the gauss never has to wait 20 seconds to fire. For the same tonnage, the triple PPC mech HAS to wait long after shots because it cant load 80 tons of heatsinks and weapons.

It is a heat problem.

You can go and try to change every weapon now, but tripled rate of fire directly increased the weight of all weapons by 2 tons per point of heat that it generated.

Gauss and PPC in TT were 1:1 for 30 dmg
In MWO, the PPC weighs over twice as much for the SAME effect.

Why?

HEAT SYSTEM - PPC is 7 tons, 10 heatsinks, so it gained 20 tons for a total of 37 tons per weapons. The Gauss with 4 tons of ammo went from 15+1+4 (20) to 22.

HUGE problem. I know youve been trying to fix weapons in the middle by lowering heat or upping damage (cough LL) but the root of the problem was the heat system. Weapon weight was directly related to the fact that heatsinks were 1 ton.

Dukov Nook, on 05 December 2012 - 11:42 AM, said:

http://encyclopedia....com/Hodge+podge

Graduate school publications use Hotch Potch

[AC]

You know, all of this could simply be fixed with recycle time. Increase the recycle time of the gauss.

Heck! All the weapons recycle very quickly compared to other MW titles. Maybe they should do a blanket recycle rebalance. Not huge changes mind you, but slight nudges in certain directions for some weapons. The recycle tweak to the AC20 helped back months ago, but people still chose to use gauss and brawl with them. If it has a noticibly slower recycle than AC20, it wouldn't get used for brawling.