165 replies to this topic

[Joker Two]

ECM in its current implementation has overall changed MWO play for the better, but I still believe its effects are too powerful. This is not solely because of the rules for ECM, but also the rules for other systems, particularly the BAP, TAG, LRM, and SSRM.

Beagle Active Probe: The only real "scouting upgrade", it is available to any 'Mech willing to sacrifice the tonnage. Good for extra detection range, but almost completely negated by the presence of ECM, even if the BAP is not within ECM range. This is fairly true to TT rules, but does not convert well to MWO, especially since the ECM's effects to not adhere to TT rules. If BAP could detect into the ECM bubble in some way, as long as the 'Mech mounting it remained outside, these two systems could be more balanced.

Alternately, a 'Mech equipped with a BAP could see disruption circles on his minimap, centered roughly over ECM-emitting 'Mechs, representing the probe detecting the ECM's disruption, even if it cannot detect the 'Mechs themselves. ECM of course could then be fitted with an on/off switch. BAP 'Mechs would also be able to detect other BAP 'Mechs (picking up the emissions of the other 'Mech's sensors) at longer range, if the system was active. BAP would have an on/off switch too.


Target Acquisition Gear: The one way to get LRM lock against ECM'ed targets. I have seen on/off toggles, and extended range bounced back and forth. These all seem pretty good, and apparently the range is already intended for the next patch.


LRM: having ECM effect standard LRM fire is actually pretty reasonable, if not TT canon. The extent to which it does so, almost nullifying them (barring a teammate dedicated to TAG or ECCM) is over the top, and partially tied to the fact that LRMs are completely inaccurate without a lock, even in direct fire. Maybe if LRMs could achieve a LoS lock without the red box (the mechanism as they currently use targeting Tag'ed 'Mechs under an ECM field) they would be more balanced. I had one game where 2/3rds of the enemy paraded right at me in clear view, but I could not hit them at all until they came under my minimum range.


SSRM: If SSRM could fire without achieving lock. Have an on/off toggle like for UAC double tap

Edited by Joker Two, 06 December 2012 - 06:05 PM.

[Kinilan]

ECM isn't just a bit of equipment. It is the heart of information warfare. An aspect of game play that was planed from the begining and is going to expand with the deployment of modules.

ECM on the COM-2D RVN-3L and CDA-3M allow these mechs to function as scouts.Actual scouts not run down one side of the map and turn away before enemy missiles ruin your day. They can sneak around the map, spot targets either with sensors or their eyes, TAG/Narc potential targets and assess enemy movements and mech compositions if not loadouts and then relay this information to their team. On top of this they can also and should also function as anti-scouts. Attempting to spot and eliminate enemy scouts. These three can also be set up to fill a specific role within the scout profile. The COM-2D is a great anti-scout. the RVN-3L can be set up to be the best general scout and the CDA-3M is great for support in brawls with it's increased armour and more weight for weapons/sinks.

The AS7-D-DC functions as support providing jamming as needed and disrupt to advance when solid cover isn't an option. Cover that can be broken by a good scout as outlined above or anyone with TAG or Narc, both of which are being improved in future patches. So the targeting computer doesn't instantly highlight every target all the time, it doesn't mean they are any harder to hit.

All of this adds depth to the game. Scouts are a real thing now. Something that takes skill and loadout beyond engine size and speed tweak.

Yes it makes LRMs harder to use, but only until the enemy ECMs are down or jammed, and again, there is still TAG and Narc. Both are getting a buff and TAG isn't nearly as bad as most people make it out to be. Wait and see how these effect your LRM use and then supply feedback/compain

Yes it makes SSRM2s harder to use. If they were your main/only weapon you clearly don't understand the purpose of the mechlab and why there is a variety of weapons with different heat, range, RoF, damage and behavioural characteristics. Relying on any one weapon type is bad.

Lock-on weapons aren't unuseable, they just can't be used all the time in every situation. ECM isn't unbeatable or even hard to defeat. Yes you might get screwed over by a bad team composition in a PUG but everyone knows PUGs are terrible but that is a problem unto itself and should be addressed separately.

ECM expands gameplay, plain and simple. It may have made your weapons of choice harder to use, it may have taken away your targeting computer crutch but it's not the end of the world and things will be adjusted as needed. Modules are only going to expand on the information warfare. ECM is the beginning, it is the tip of the iceberg and the heart of the system that will be, should be and can only be balanced properly as part of a whole.

Until then, adapt.

[Royce Mathers]

ECM should work just like TAG---only benefit the generating mech plus one other mech within 450 meters that it keeps targeted. That is plenty powerful enough for 1.5 tons

or raise its weight to 8 tons so that is the ONLY thing a scout mech would be carrying. Tag only affects one. The power is out of proportiong to the weight

[Streeter]

Justin Xang Allard, on 06 December 2012 - 05:14 PM, said:

ecm does not remove entire weapon trees, what it does is make people think about what they are doing a bit. if you are running with a lrm cat, tell your team to run their ecm in the mode that nullifies the other ecm. this makes ecm inert. if you dont like ecm just run counter ecm.
fixed

so pretty much what you are saying is the team with most ECMs wins. Which is exactly what I have found. Played a bunch of games last night and with out fail if we had more we won, if we had less we lost, and to top of the test I had one match which was one ecm a side and it was a draw! LOL

I think this is a pretty strong indication that its not very well balanced.

[Kinilan]

Streeter, on 06 December 2012 - 06:03 PM, said:

so pretty much what you are saying is the team with most ECMs wins. Which is exactly what I have found. Played a bunch of games last night and with out fail if we had more we won, if we had less we lost, and to top of the test I had one match which was one ecm a side and it was a draw! LOL

I think this is a pretty strong indication that its not very well balanced.

PUG matches going terribly wrong is nothing new and are by the very nature of the current match making system akin to a coin toss. Luck in team comp is more at play than skill. You can't use one problem (PUG experience) as an argument for or against another (ECM).

You can say you lost matches because the other team had more ECM. I can say, truthfully, that I have won PUG matches while being the only ECM mech on my team while having to deal with 2 and 3 other ECM mechs.

[Streeter]

Kinilan, on 06 December 2012 - 06:22 PM, said:

PUG matches going terribly wrong is nothing new and are by the very nature of the current match making system akin to a coin toss. Luck in team comp is more at play than skill. You can't use one problem (PUG experience) as an argument for or against another (ECM).

You can say you lost matches because the other team had more ECM. I can say, truthfully, that I have won PUG matches while being the only ECM mech on my team while having to deal with 2 and 3 other ECM mechs.

one of the matches was my raven ecm, vs 2 raven ecm. They singled me out first and there is nothing you can do if one is running disrupt and the other is running counter. 4 x streaks at me Vs 0 x streak at them. as soon as I was dead the LRM rain was coming down.

Id like to see how you would counter that with any kind of skill or tactics.

[Hellion Sharpes]

ECM's are totally unbalanced. I have been unable to get a single proper lock on a battlemech since you added this to the game and missile mechs are what I primarily use.
If you are going to have it give us missile boats a serious counter besides having to force some other player use TAG or other such equipment just so we can get a lock.

[Kinilan]

Streeter, on 06 December 2012 - 06:24 PM, said:

one of the matches was my raven ecm, vs 2 raven ecm. They singled me out first and there is nothing you can do if one is running disrupt and the other is running counter. 4 x streaks at me Vs 0 x streak at them. as soon as I was dead the LRM rain was coming down.

Id like to see how you would counter that with any kind of skill or tactics.

Well your first mistake was relying on streaks, they can't be trusted any more because of the situation you just described. Beyond that I'd have to ask why you were alone and able to be singled out by two enemy mechs? If you weren't alone then your team mates obviously didn't know how to prioritize their targets. In the former the fault is on you for making a bad ply, if the latter the fault is on the match making and the PUG experience because your team mates weren't smart enough to target wisely and support you.

As for the LRM rain you can fault the PUG experience again. ECM was down then your team should have moved to cover. and I doubt your whole team was under your ECM umbrella the whole time you were alive. No PUG group is that co-ordinated outside of something like a tunnel run and LRMs aren't an issue in that situation anyways so chances are the LRM rain started well before you died.

Not ECMs fault you were alone or that your team wasn't smart enough to cover you. Not ECMs fault your team didn't move to cover after their ECM coverage was down. It was simply the result of poor team comp as a result of match making, an issue unto itself that needs to be resolved and should not and can not be used as a factor against balancing the seperate issue that is ECM.

[Streeter]

Kinilan, on 06 December 2012 - 06:39 PM, said:

Well your first mistake was relying on streaks, they can't be trusted any more because of the situation you just described. Beyond that I'd have to ask why you were alone and able to be singled out by two enemy mechs? If you weren't alone then your team mates obviously didn't know how to prioritize their targets. In the former the fault is on you for making a bad ply, if the latter the fault is on the match making and the PUG experience because your team mates weren't smart enough to target wisely and support you.

As for the LRM rain you can fault the PUG experience again. ECM was down then your team should have moved to cover. and I doubt your whole team was under your ECM umbrella the whole time you were alive. No PUG group is that co-ordinated outside of something like a tunnel run and LRMs aren't an issue in that situation anyways so chances are the LRM rain started well before you died.

Not ECMs fault you were alone or that your team wasn't smart enough to cover you. Not ECMs fault your team didn't move to cover after their ECM coverage was down. It was simply the result of poor team comp as a result of match making, an issue unto itself that needs to be resolved and should not and can not be used as a factor against balancing the seperate issue that is ECM.

this whole reply shows that you are quite new to the game. and the reason you dont understand there is a problem with ECMs.


*the lag shield on the raven doing 140kph is quite bad, while you can hit a bit its not easy to get solid damage on them with lasers.

*even if loaded with SRMs and was uber leet enough to hit lagging ravens at 140kph I was getting constant cockpit shake from 4 streaks hitting me (which are also doing considerable damage and hitting 100% of the time)

*I was amongst my whole group mainly made up of direct fire cataphracts with lasers and cannons that should be the "best" at destroying ECM equipped mechs. I guess they hit a little bit? LOL failed to bring down either one. 140kph lag shield... hello.

*moved to cover in caustic valley when we were up against the crater... good luck with that. They had unhittable ravens giving spots to LRM boats they couldnt even see.

I would really like to see how you would have played it given that situation.

[Kinilan]

Streeter, on 06 December 2012 - 06:46 PM, said:

this whole reply shows that you are quite new to the game. and the reason you dont understand there is a problem with ECMs.


*the lag shield on the raven doing 140kph is quite bad, while you can hit a bit its not easy to get solid damage on them with lasers.

*even if loaded with SRMs and was uber leet enough to hit lagging ravens at 140kph I was getting constant cockpit shake from 4 streaks hitting me (which are also doing considerable damage and hitting 100% of the time)

*I was amongst my whole group mainly made up of direct fire cataphracts with lasers and cannons that should be the "best" at destroying ECM equipped mechs. I guess they hit a little bit? LOL failed to bring down either one. 140kph lag shield... hello.

*moved to cover in caustic valley when we were up against the crater... good luck with that. They had unhittable ravens giving spots to LRM boats they couldnt even see.

I would really like to see how you would have played it given that situation.

I've been testing since late summer early fall.

Lag shield is not ECM. Do you not understand that you can't use one problem as an argument against another? they are different issues. My car won't start so you need to give me a refund on this TV. See?

Streak impulse is not ECM.

Again, Lag shield is not ECM

Being inside the crater is terrible. Why fight with a heat disadvantage? Plenty of cover along the slopes and up against the lip of the crater. Poor positioning is not ECM.

you're not evaluating ECM you're pointing out the problem with the poor netcode, an issue that is already being addressed.

Edited by Kinilan, 06 December 2012 - 07:08 PM.

[G4M3R]

ECM is great the way it is. Game changer for sure. But imho, for the better.

[Talys]

I find it curious that an ECCM can only counter one ECM equipped mech. If it's generating a field it should be able to affect more than one ECM mech. If a mech in counter mode could impact any disrupting ECMs within it's range and the ECM bubble had limited duration per use and a small cooldown perhaps that would mix things up a bit.

[Nightcrept]

Kinilan, on 06 December 2012 - 07:07 PM, said:

I've been testing since late summer early fall.

Lag shield is not ECM. Do you not understand that you can't use one problem as an argument against another? they are different issues. My car won't start so you need to give me a refund on this TV. See?

Streak impulse is not ECM.

Again, Lag shield is not ECM

Being inside the crater is terrible. Why fight with a heat disadvantage? Plenty of cover along the slopes and up against the lip of the crater. Poor positioning is not ECM.

you're not evaluating ECM you're pointing out the problem with the poor netcode, an issue that is already being addressed.

ECM is the only piece of equipment in the game that can single handedly change the course of a match. And since pugs are generally going to be the majority of a player base and the first thing most new players are going to see when deciding if they like the game or not that is what the game should be balanced towards.

ECM completely removes the use of two entire weapons trees as is at this moment.

[Mancu]

Wow, over 500 votes now and still only 1/3 of the players consider ECM balanced. That to me says there is a play balance issue that needs addressed.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Let me offer this up as a hypothetical argument:

You buy a Hunchback chassis, but what you bought is not allowed to upgrade from your stock engine. Anyone can buy 3 variants of an Assault class mech and upgrade to a 360 engine that allows them to run as fast as you while they're more heavily armed and armored. Would you find that fair?

Since the ECM is only on a limited number of mechs it limits how truly overpowering it would be is if was available to all chassis.

[Nightcrept]

I think ecm just needs to be balanced a bit more. There is a thread about how to balance.

[Einlanzer]

My response to people crying over ECM:

Get a decent team to play with. Send in a group with a scout or atlas with a counter ECM so you can go back to your SkillRM spam. Or when you pug adapt and learn to aim instead of using imho the extremely boring, unskilled crutch that is lrm's and ssrm's. I never found it fun or satisfying sitting back and unloading LRM's on moronic pugs who let themselves get caught in the open. Also, cutting down a jenner or commando is not difficult with lasers, and if your halfway decent you can lead your shots and score an alpha of srm's, ac, or gauss along with your lasers.

Some minor balancing issues remain but with the incoming buff to tag that should be less of a problem.

Just my opinion

[Kinilan]

Nightcrept, on 07 December 2012 - 10:43 AM, said:

ECM is the only piece of equipment in the game that can single handedly change the course of a match. And since pugs are generally going to be the majority of a player base and the first thing most new players are going to see when deciding if they like the game or not that is what the game should be balanced towards.

ECM completely removes the use of two entire weapons trees as is at this moment.

Just because some people find simple game play rewarding and entertaining doesn't mean others do. For every person that says they want MWO to be more arcadey, run and gun You'll find another that would prefer more tactical thought out chess-like game play. A balance needs to be struck between the vision of the development team and desires of the community, more so in a F2P game.

As I said in previous posts you can't take one issue and use it to argue against another. In this case match making. New plays get stomped when they face more experienced players that can buy, equip and best exploit the functionality of ECM. You can say the same about any item in the game. Proper match making will solve that problem.

[TruePoindexter]

My only problem with ECM thus far is that people feel compelled to only run ECM mechs in 8 mans. Quite silly but I enjoy disassembling Atlas's anyway.

[gamingogre]

My experience with ECM has been good. I run the commando ECM, it has 1 energy and 3 missile hardpoints. I run 3 SSRM2, to kill light mechs. When I encounter another ECM mech, I switch to counter and go for the kill. If tag helped with the ssrm lock I would use that to. I normally run lasers and/or AC weapons on my other mechs. ECM mechs die just as quickly as before. As long as the pug matches have variety of weapons and roles, you will always have a chance for winning.