165 replies to this topic

[Nightcrept]

I used my lrm boat in the game I just played and it was a very good indication of why the ecm is op imo.

In the arctic map I got attacked early by a jenner and spent a while dancing before dispatching it. During that time the other team went right by me to cap.

They did shot me a few times on passing but completely ignored me otherwise.

After killing the jenner I turned to see 5 or six mechs in my cap 600 yrd away or so. I had a good hill to fire from and clear line of sight but was rendered useless due to the ecm mechs they had.

We won simply because my team had used our ecm mech to go by their team and cap first. Otherwise I would have been forced to suicide to stop the cap.

What type of device that can completely render a almost fully loaded and healthy mech useless wouldn't be considered op.

ReD3y3, on 04 December 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

give ECM some time

I feel that LRM boaters and streak cat users are the ones crying foul

WTF? if srms and lbx10s actually had a role?

Blasphemy!

Yeah right. I use all types of mechs. My favorite before this patch was a d-dc short range brawler with 3x srm-6's and a ac-20.
Now it's op due to the ecm.

I want balance not easy mode.

[Qarnage]

ECM is balanced, no? No? Anyone?

[KingKalvin]

1.) ECM Disrupt and Counter should be separated.

Why? This will actually benefit the idea of "role play" in games. I've played some games where Ravens/Commando equipped with ECM would rather stay with group rather than scout out for the team.

How?ECM role can be activated before the game starts, the team can decide on who can disrupt and who will use counter if ever the team has 2 or more mechs equipped with ECM.


Lights/Mediums - Disrupt
(which ever)
Heavy/Assaults - Counter

2.) Disrupt mechanic of ECM is broken

Why?Group games became MECH WARRIOR BRAWL FEST. As much as I enjoy up close and personal battles with the other team, the role of Long range fire support just became useless. The game now is "okay team the plan is stick to the guy with ecm and brawl it out"

Whatever happened to the suspense or even fear of getting fire upon by locked on based weapons from afar?GONE
Even the SSRM became useless

How? Make the disrupt mechanic a pulse that happens every 7-15 seconds and will cloak and shield you from lock on for 3-6 seconds. This mechanic will make LRM fire or Streak fire a threat but not entirely dominate the match.

3. ECM is too good for its cost and weight.

equipping the ECM should require its own module and pilot unlock (just like the 4X zoom)

[Bounty Dogg]

ECM is not balanced at present. It is indeed far too powerful for the drawbacks that it has (none, outside of mech restriction). However, there is absolutely no need for alarm, as the playtest data will reflect this. Also, ECM can be balanced in a number of (hopefully) simple-action-to-take ways, such as:

Up the Price (WAY too cheap)
Up the weight (for what it does, this thing could weigh as much as the engine)
Up the Critical slots (makes mech building around it FAR more strenous)
Make it Fragile (like the Glass...er...Gauss Rifle )
Make it cost Heat to work (I like this suggestion the least, but I can see it being used as a possibility)

Or balance it in some other way I haven't thought of.

I have an absolute feeling that this device needs to be seriously balanced......and I have absolute faith that it WILL be.

[Thomas Covenant]

I misread somewhere that ECM was 7 tons. So when I read the info on it I thought, "no big deal, that mech will be severely combat hampered". When I saw it was what, 1.5 tons? I started getting pretty skeptical. My Raven 3L's emc seemed pretty cool, but it does seem to be a battle of who has more emcs. And saying tag laser is like rock paper scissors is like saying a "paper" mech counters a "rock" mech, yet all the rock mech's friends still get the benefit, and the "paper" mech friends don't. Expecting someone to hold a laser to a light is ludicrous, and expecting pugs to coordinate to all fire on that mech is just as much so. And of course it all gets compounded by multi ecm in proximity. I kind of felt like radar cloaking and LRM cloaking should be two items. In the TT did it really make your mechs invisible to the other player?

In the end though its the first day. And you can bet when we all rest on it well all know how to use it better tomorrow.

[Scraper]

I love my lbx 10, it's not consistant but it's pretty effective I think... I can solo Assaults in my Hunch and sometimes get a second one without help. It's also pretty decent for scaring and/or scattering enemy mechs at a distance.

I do wish the spread was slightly different, but I do enjoy it more than AC's other than UAC (when it doesn't OVER jam)

[Irreverence]

I think it changed the game for the better. But I would have been satisfied with it being a Raven only piece of equipment Though, my D-DC doesn't mind.

[Thirdrail]

I run an LRM love cat most of the time. I have to say, despite (or perhaps because of) the fact that ECM has made the game far more difficult for me, I like it.

I voted unbalanced, though. Not so much that ECM is overpowered, but that its counters are drastically underpowered.

They just need to make TAG not suck so much.

ECM provides a sweeping area effect defense that requires basically nothing of anyone using its cover. All I have to do is stay near my ECM generator, and boom, super lock-on shield. It's absolutely ubiquitous, permeating cover and terrain as though they did not exist. (Its effects should really be blocked by anything that blocks normal lock-on, so you at least have to maintain LOS with your ECM generator. You could make the 360 target lock perk count for this too, so scouts have a way to mitigate the LOS effect.)

TAG, on the other hand, only has a 450m range, stops working the second you aren't hitting, is disrupted by cover and terrain, and has to fire through the game's most persistent and powerful defense - the MWO lag shield.

Those two systems are in no way equivalent. Extend the range of TAG (or introduce ER TAG) to something commensurate with the range of the LRMs that now need it, and make its effect linger 3-5 seconds after contact, and I think you've got yourself something like a correctly balanced dynamic.

At the moment, you've basically forced LRM users without a well coordinated team to get within 450m of their target and maintain constant contact with a direct fire weapon just to use a "long range" missile. That goes way, way, beyond the kind of rock-paper-scissors mechanic to which the devs constantly claim an affinity.

Edited by Thirdrail, 05 December 2012 - 02:01 AM.

[Nightcrept]

Thirdrail, on 04 December 2012 - 06:12 PM, said:

I run an LRM love cat most of the time. I have to say, despite (or perhaps because of) the fact that ECM has made the game far more difficult for me, I like it.

I voted unbalanced, though. Not so much that ECM is overpowered, but that its counters are drastically underpowered.

They just need to make TAG not suck so much.

ECM provides a sweeping area affect defense that requires basically nothing of anything using its cover. All I have to do is stay near my ECM generator, and boom, super lock-on shield. It's absolutely ubiquitous, permeating cover and terrain as though they did not exist. (Its effects should really be blocked by anything that blocks normal lock-on, so you at least have to maintain LOS with your ECM generator. You could make the 360 target lock perk count for this too, so scouts have a way to mitigate the LOS effect.)

TAG, on the other hand, only has a 450m range, stops working the second you aren't hitting, is disrupted by cover and terrain, and has to fire through the game's most persistent and powerful defense - the MWO lag shield.

Those two systems are in no way equivalent. Extend the range of TAG (or introduce ER TAG) to something commensurate with the range of the LRMs that now need it, and make its effect linger 3-5 seconds after contact, and I think you've got yourself something like a correctly balanced dynamic.

At the moment, you've basically forced LRM users without a well coordinated team to get within 450m of their target and maintain constant contact with a direct fire weapon just to use a "long range" missile. That goes way, way, beyond the kind of rock-paper-scissors mechanic to which the devs constantly claim an affinity.

Good post.

[Irreverence]

Thirdrail, you make a good point. I think they should just allow TAG to work through ECM without side-affect regardless of range rather than changing the ECM.

[Jman5]

Are we seriously trying to cast judgement on an item mere hours after it has gone live?

[Felix]

ECM is unbalanced, and I am disgusted with whatever dev thought it was balanced.

An atlas 470m away next to two other mechs and I cant target them at all even with a beagle active probe so I am reduced to small lasers to defend myself instead of being able to use LRMs

Edit: Question, are we allowed to sell our accounts? I spent a good deal on my founders package and am disappointed I wasted so much money on it with how the game is turning out

Edited by Felix, 04 December 2012 - 06:17 PM.

[KingKalvin]

Jman5, on 04 December 2012 - 06:14 PM, said:

Are we seriously trying to cast judgement on an item mere hours after it has gone live?

An item, after its release, basically changed the whole game?

I've seen too much negative reaction to know that it did more bad than good.

Brawlwarrior Online?
CommandoWarrior Online?
CapthebaseWarrior Online?
D-DCWarrior Online?

If there are more people voting NO than Yes then there is something terribly wrong.

[Qarnage]

Bounty Dogg, on 04 December 2012 - 06:00 PM, said:

Also, ECM can be balanced in a number of (hopefully) simple-action-to-take ways, such as:

Up the Price (WAY too cheap)
Up the weight (for what it does, this thing could weigh as much as the engine)
Up the Critical slots (makes mech building around it FAR more strenous)
Make it Fragile (like the Glass...er...Gauss Rifle )
Make it cost Heat to work (I like this suggestion the least, but I can see it being used as a possibility)

The problem with "simple-action-to-take ways" is that more often than not, they fail miserably. I wonder what would happen if we raise the price. Probably less new players with light mechs carrying it, for more experienced assault AS7-D-DC pilots. What about weight raise, probably more AS7-D-DC again. Pretty sure raising critical slots might get some light pilots to drop their Ferro upgrade, but probably a lot of AS7-D-DC just dropping their Endo upgrade as well. Fragile? Let's just stick the ECM into that Atlas leg, nobody ever leg an Atlas, right? Right?

[justin xiang]

Is it bad that I take pleasure in the crying of all the Streak and LRM boaters?

[Scratx]

ReD3y3, on 04 December 2012 - 05:36 PM, said:

give ECM some time

I feel that LRM boaters and streak cat users are the ones crying foul

WTF? if srms and lbx10s actually had a role?

Blasphemy!

Except not only did they already have a role, it is a false assertion that only LRM and Streak boaters are crying foul.

It's ridiculously good for what it costs you.


Also, ECM countering only one ECM means there's a strong incentive to have an ECM arms race... the team with more ECMs has a huge advantage if they use it.

[Solis Obscuri]

KingKalvin, on 04 December 2012 - 06:19 PM, said:

An item, after its release, basically changed the whole game?

I've seen too much negative reaction to know that it did more bad than good.

Brawlwarrior Online?
CommandoWarrior Online?
CapthebaseWarrior Online?
D-DCWarrior Online?

If there are more people voting NO than Yes then there is something terribly wrong.

Last time LRMs got nerfed into oblivion (before engine size caps) everything turned into Lagshieldwarrior online, since closing distance became mostly trivial and speed >> armor with the hit detection issues.

[Tempered]

aspect, on 04 December 2012 - 05:12 PM, said:

One ECM counters another ECM directly. How is it possible to not be balanced? Sorry if it seems like you are dropping against teams with ECM more than having them on your team, but I assure you that you have an equal chance of being helped or hurt by it, and even then it comes down to how the people with the ECM's are using them.

I am SO happy that more complex strategies are starting to be required than "hide behind the building" or "camp tunnel exit".

The problem is that it is now required that certain mechs carry them and that you have said mechs on your team. Random drops can not ensure this. Teams are forced to abide by this.

[Kylon Kostaja]

ECMS? so LRM and Streaks can not be used anymore and pre-mades are rolling atlas all they way across the map without being observed to drop the hammer right on top of you.

I would hardly say this is balanced. Takes most of the fun out of game play. I'm not one to cry about quitting during every change but this is just awful.

I also love the recent medium and light mech groups that cap rush while stealthed. That really makes the game fun.

Edited by Kylon Kostaja, 04 December 2012 - 06:55 PM.

[Zylo]

ECM is balanced as I see it. Here is why I think it's balanced:

ECM counters missile based mechs easily.

ECM is countered by another mech with ECM in counter mode or a mech outside the ECM bubble TAGging the mech using the ECM in disrupt mode.

Direct fire weapons still work so Jenners aren't useless if they know how to use direct fire weapons. The Jenner-F is still quite dangerous to other lights. Maybe some Jenner D pilots are upset that their 2 streaks can't easily kill that ECM equipped Commando but if that Jenner pilot is any good the 4 energy hardpoints still make it a very good light mech.

ECM is not an easy "I WIN" feature IF the enemy team knows how to counter it.

Edited by Zylo, 04 December 2012 - 06:48 PM.