235 replies to this topic

[Bully_Hayes]

Hopefully PGI gives ECM longer then the UAC5 before a knee jerk reaction results in a nerf. Both sides have ECM and the ability to counter it,the problem at the moment I believe is that everybody that can is carrying it...experimenting....seeing what it will and won't do. It is after all the first day its been available. In the long run I don't believe ECM will be the problem,its going to be the number of mechs equipped with it per-match, which goes back to the current state of the match making system. We are also seeing entire lances made up of Atlas's which are every bit as much of a potential problem balance wise as ECM. The patch brought some big changes and Its going to take some time for everything to settle back down.

[Garth Erlam]

Phingers, on 04 December 2012 - 10:33 PM, said:

Only way is to Make ECM just make it longer to achieve locks, and not share data. this cloak crap/brawl stuff will pretty much bore everyone out of this game.

Disruption Mode:

* ‘Cloaks’ friendlies within 180 meters (reduces detection distance to 25% of normal range).
* Disrupts enemies sensors (targeting system), as well as targeting communication (sharing of targeting information) within 180 meters.
* Disables enemy NARC
* Disables broadcasting of TAG (if friendly is within sphere of influences); However, if you TAG a mech with ECM OUTSIDE of their sphere of influence, it allows you and your friendlies to target
* Slow down weapon locks by 25%
* Slow down target gathering by 25%

[DeathofSelf]

Dukov Nook, on 05 December 2012 - 07:24 AM, said:

It won't. Experienced units looking for tactical combat will use it fine. They will be a very small percent.

Everyone else will just use the 4 chassis with ECM. Eventually, even the people looking for the full Mechwarrior experience will swap over to that mindset as it becomes overwhelming.

One of the core concepts of the game when it was first introduced was to make sure there weren't some chassis that were 'essential' to a drop. Now there is. That is unbalancing.

What will bring balance isn't the game, or the devs. It's the players, looking to find mechanics to counter the semi-broken mechanics of ECM, but that will be not the norm, but the exception. The norm will be people just saying 'f-it' and hopping in one of the 4 current Jesus Mech's that have the ECM shield.

ECM is popular now because it is new. And how is ECM required? And further still, how is it a requirement that every mech in your lance/company has it? Does ECM block my AC rounds? Or my SRMs? Or my lasers? Nope, nope and nope. Once the ECM frenzy calms down LRMs and SSRMs will come back a bit. I'm not saying ECM is perfect the way it is, but its not the all powerful, mandatory piece of equipment some people are making it out to be.

[PurpleNinja]

Garth Erlam, on 05 December 2012 - 09:01 AM, said:

Disruption Mode:

* ‘Cloaks’ friendlies within 180 meters (reduces detection distance to 25% of normal range).
* Disrupts enemies sensors (targeting system), as well as targeting communication (sharing of targeting information) within 180 meters.
* Disables enemy NARC
* Disables broadcasting of TAG (if friendly is within sphere of influences); However, if you TAG a mech with ECM OUTSIDE of their sphere of influence, it allows you and your friendlies to target
* Slow down weapon locks by 25%
* Slow down target gathering by 25%

Is this any sort of new information?

[AlexWildeagle]

I don't use ECM and had multiple matches last night where no one on the team did.

Only difference I've seen is a lot less missile useage. Missiles are finally being used as support and not easy mode.

ECM rocks! Overpowered? NO WAY! It's just the easy mode crowd crying.

[Red squirrel]

Just the sheer amount of D-DCs is really annoying.
Let ECM be a tool of light mechs (Cicada included)

I really like the argument: "ECM is no prob just target the mech with ECM first."
Quite useful tip if you face on average 2-3 AS7-D-DC with ECM in a bulk.

[KuruptU4Fun]

Posted today by Paul:

Posted Today, 01:49 AM

POPULAR
As I said I would keep you up to date... going into test today... possibly live next patch...

1) AutoCannon projectile speeds increasing. AC/20 ~ 900m/s. AC/LBX10 ~ 1100m/s. AC/UAC/5 ~1300m/s.
2) PPC and ERPPC projectile speeds increasing to 2000m/s (AC/2 speed).

I've also looked into doing some tweaks with the NARC and TAG systems. So far I'm planning on increasing the time that a NARC beacon lasts from 15 seconds to 20 seconds. TAG range will be boosted from 450m to 750m.

These changes will go through testing and if it feels right, you'll see them next patch.

http://mwomercs.com/...apon-balancing/

[Freeride Forever]

Felix, on 04 December 2012 - 10:22 PM, said:

Yeah because Tag still sucks horribly, as a split second after it loses contact on someone, hard to maintain in the brawltard matches that the game has become, the missiles lose lock and fly off into nothingness.

Only a person who has never picked up an LRM support boat would think that this is 'balance'

"brawltard"? Because standing in one spot on the edge of the map shooting lock on weapons while the "brawltards" spot the targets for you takes mountains of intelligence?

Your last sentence should've said "Only a person who has a clue how to pilot a mech would think that this is balanced".

[ArmandTulsen]

I get the sense that most people crying about ECM are streak cats and the like, have bad aim, or just like crying.

Few ITT are smart to enough to realize that the introduction of ECM simply means a change in tactics. Atlas D-DCs are actually now getting the support they need by encouraging people to stick close to the slow guy with big guns and help him. This conditions people to think, "hey, if we huddle around the big stompy mech, we win more often." This both implicitly and explicitly encourages teamwork. The Commando now has a role other than being a fly in need of swatting. The Raven is closer to being the mech it's supposed to be. The Cicada.. well, I mean... Forget it, the Cicada is just bad.

What ECM means is that people will use missiles less. When that happens they resort to dumbfire weapons like ballistics, which means it changes the battle dynamics. What that results is in AMS not being a must anymore. When people start using AMS less often and start using less missiles it means ECM is used less and less. Then, some will realize this and go back to using missiles in full force to take advantage of the fact that people aren't using ECM and AMS as much.

And so, the gameplay evolves and progresses in waves and trends.

I swear, if some of you could see just two steps ahead past your own two feet, there wouldn't be so much crying.

Edited by ArmandTulsen, 05 December 2012 - 09:32 AM.

[Felix]

Freeride Forever, on 05 December 2012 - 09:26 AM, said:

"brawltard"? Because standing in one spot on the edge of the map shooting lock on weapons while the "brawltards" spot the targets for you takes mountains of intelligence?

Your last sentence should've said "Only a person who has a clue how to pilot a mech would think that this is balanced".

Yes brawltard the idiots who do nothing but rush in and just shoot whatever happens to be in front of them at the moment, which is what the game is devolving into.

Obviously you are one or you would know standing in one spot is just asking to die as an LRM carrier, as is getting too far away from your lines as a light or medium can flank around and tear you a new one with no possibility of support.

But nope, so much for tactics, all the idiots now just wanna fit ECM and rush to the center of the map to bang heads together and drool on themselves, or slip around with little chance of being spotted to cap like cowards

[Jakob Knight]

ArmandTulsen, on 05 December 2012 - 09:29 AM, said:

I get the sense that most people crying about ECM are streak cats and the like, have bad aim, or just like crying.

And I get the sense that most people crying about the ECM crying are Counterstrike players who think the game should only be about direct-fire brawling, or just like to have the battlefield uncluttered by weapons that need skill.

To be clear here, I run several types of weapons, both direct-fire and indirect, and have many a compliment on my marksmanship. And -I- think ECM is a massive travesty that only players who should be playing Hawken would support.

I am astounded the Devs agreed that this was a good idea. Shows a lack of tactical and strategic understanding of what they are doing.

[KuruptU4Fun]

If you are so enamored with your mech that you find it a better solution to cry about how it's become ineffective than adapt it to the situation and remove it from a 1 trick pony build then by all means do that. I'll adapt and overcome, then leave you to fry out your keyboard.

[ArmandTulsen]

Jakob Knight, on 05 December 2012 - 09:36 AM, said:

And I get the sense that most people crying about the ECM crying are Counterstrike players who think the game should only be about direct-fire brawling, or just like to have the battlefield uncluttered by weapons that need skill.

To be clear here, I run several types of weapons, both direct-fire and indirect, and have many a compliment on my marksmanship. And -I- think ECM is a massive travesty that only players who should be playing Hawken would support.

I am astounded the Devs agreed that this was a good idea. Shows a lack of tactical and strategic understanding of what they are doing.

Note that OR is the operative word in the sentence you've quoted. What that means is since you (allegedly) have good aim, the probability that you heavily use streak cats is much less. It's too early to judge the item and make a proper criticism. So, this must mean you just like to cry about it.

Guess what? Any newly introduced item or mech will be used in DROVES! It will be LEGION until it starts to fade away and die down as a result of counter-strategies, brute force (nerfs/buffs), or just plain old boredom and dislike.

It's simply a fact of online gaming that new additions and changes will pis some percentage of players off, while most don't care and utilize it to their advantage, or work around it if it affects their current strategies.

People are simply too quick to yell out "OP" or "BROKEN" without any due consideration and thought. What's often OP or broken is in the math, not the subjective feel of it.

Edited by ArmandTulsen, 05 December 2012 - 09:50 AM.

[Stargazer86]

Whoopty-do, the NARC lasts a useless 20 seconds now instead of a useless 15. Given the fact that it takes up a missile slot, has extraordinarily limited ammo, and that 20 seconds is an eye-blink in terms of gameplay time, it's still a waste of space.

ECM hasn't created more depth. It's created invisible brawlfests where whoever has the most ECM's wins. It hasn't relegated LRM's to support rolls. It's completely negated them and made them entirely pointless to have on your mech. Same for streaks. LRM's were already pushed into a support roll before this patch and were fairly balanced. Streaks were only over-powered on the Cat-A1, but now they're useless on every mech.

Lights are now even worse than they already were. Not only do they have lagshields, not only do they travel at absurd speeds, not only are they able to equip XL engines, Endosteel and DBHS all at once, not only can't they be knocked down, but NOW they're entirely invisible while they do it. They're like the ultimate troll mech. "Haha, you can't hit me! Oh, what's that? No, you can't run into me either! Hey, guess what? I'm disabling all your missiles, locks, and radar too!" Knockdown really, really needs to be put back into the game. ECM also needs to be relegated to the Raven only. A DDC Atlas should not have it. Cicada's should not have it. Commandos are debatable, but really, the Raven is the go-to Electronic Warfare mech and should be the only specialized one capable of doing so.

Likewise, ECM needs to be changed. Either it shouldn't cloak/effect the mech using it, making it beneficial for the rest of the team but a liability for the ECM mech itself, more counters need to be added, or the various abilities need to be split into different functions or adjusted. Being invisible to radar -and- impervious to target locks at the same time is ridiculous. Separate it into two modes. One for long range stealth and one for brawling. This forces you to choose. Do you want to cloak your team and let them advance or do you want to make them harder to lock onto and hit? The ECM and ECCM should be split as well. If a mech wants ECM, they shouldn't be able to suddenly switch into a counter mode.

This whole business of ECM countering ECM is dumb because whoever has more is going to win since they just cancel each other out. If one team has 3, and the other team has 4, the team with 4 has the advantage since they have an uncountered ECM mech. It shouldn't work that way. If any ECM mech is within range of an ECCM mech, they're abilities should cancel out. It shouldn't matter who has more, not in the slightest.

[Joseph Mallan]

Red squirrel, on 05 December 2012 - 09:17 AM, said:

Just the sheer amount of D-DCs is really annoying.
Let ECM be a tool of light mechs (Cicada included)

I really like the argument: "ECM is no prob just target the mech with ECM first."
Quite useful tip if you face on average 2-3 AS7-D-DC with ECM in a bulk.

Yes. If you are not Lyran you should use a different Atlas!

[Dukov Nook]

DeathofSelf, on 05 December 2012 - 09:05 AM, said:

ECM is popular now because it is new. And how is ECM required? And further still, how is it a requirement that every mech in your lance/company has it? Does ECM block my AC rounds? Or my SRMs? Or my lasers? Nope, nope and nope. Once the ECM frenzy calms down LRMs and SSRMs will come back a bit. I'm not saying ECM is perfect the way it is, but its not the all powerful, mandatory piece of equipment some people are making it out to be.

That wasn't my point. The point being that if the lesser skilled premades out there extensively to counter a skill deficit, and to think there won't be many is dreaming, then eventually the medium skilled groups will swap to it as well as the easiest way to counter it is with the same lineup. It would be nice to see some data from PGI regarding group makeup statistics.

See existing flavors of the month mechs to see this in action.

[Odins Fist]

Phingers, on 04 December 2012 - 10:06 PM, said:

Ecm Is Unbalanced.
Seriously unbalanced.

The game is DE_EVOLVING
As a founder I have gone from having fun....to face palming, smacking my head into keyboard.

.
HA HA HA HA.... HA HA HA HA... HA HA HA HA... HA HA HA HA.....
.
"That's why I say hey man nice shot, what a good shot man":
.
Good, Missile Boat Online would have been a tragedy, Streak Boat Online was making "SOME" people mad, i'm glad you're forced into "BRAWLS", they are much more fun than "EASY MODE" was..
What's a matter can't brawl, or did someone steal your sweet roll..??

[DeathofSelf]

Dukov Nook, on 05 December 2012 - 10:05 AM, said:

That wasn't my point. The point being that if the lesser skilled premades out there extensively to counter a skill deficit, and to think there won't be many is dreaming, then eventually the medium skilled groups will swap to it as well as the easiest way to counter it is with the same lineup. It would be nice to see some data from PGI regarding group makeup statistics.

See existing flavors of the month mechs to see this in action.

Ok, so your point is (no offense, but your sentence structure and wording seems a bit off) that "lesser skilled" groups will run ECM heavy drops?.. If so my response is "so what?" ECM does not scare me, again, ECM is not stoping my ACs, SRMs, or lasers. If the opposing team wants to waste crit slots and tonnage on everyone running ECM, and limit themselfs to a specific set of mechs, then so be it, more kills for me.

Edited by DeathofSelf, 05 December 2012 - 10:16 AM.

[Jonathan Paine]

Garth Erlam, on 05 December 2012 - 09:01 AM, said:

Disruption Mode:

* ‘Cloaks’ friendlies within 180 meters (reduces detection distance to 25% of normal range).
* Disrupts enemies sensors (targeting system), as well as targeting communication (sharing of targeting information) within 180 meters.
* Disables enemy NARC
* Disables broadcasting of TAG (if friendly is within sphere of influences); However, if you TAG a mech with ECM OUTSIDE of their sphere of influence, it allows you and your friendlies to target
* Slow down weapon locks by 25%
* Slow down target gathering by 25%

Caveat: I largely like the ECM, and have still been able to use LRM as part of a diverse weapons package for my Atlas-D for picking off stragglers.

However, in one match a group of five 'mechs exited the tunnel on the frozen city map and I could not get a lock on my prime target at all. I had the target under my XO, fired three rounds of large lasers staying on the target, and did not get a lock. Not a lot of running away in an Atlas

At other times, I have been able to lock on to ECM targets - could there be a BUG with ECM that at times disables lock on completely?

[DogmeatX]

At first I wasn't sure but have decided I like the Atlas having it. I don't pilot one but from observation it seems to encourage people to stick together a bit more and that's basically a bit more teamplay than existed before so it's good improvement.